Therein lies the difference between patriotism and jingoism.

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]

seems liek today there is a heavy contingent of people who want to be heavikly armed personally to ward off an oppressive evil govt.

yet i tend to think that of that group, many are proUS military…

[/quote]

I think that you very accurately put it right there.

It’s within that group that you see parents encouraging their children, just out of high school, to enlist in the military.

It’s a question of culture and education. I doubt any on this board would allow their kids to enlist in the military.

Is there any data on the high schools/zip codes where enlisted military members come from?[/quote]
Complete demonstration of lack of core values – and focus on self serving.

I am pro US military. They put their lives on the line. That does not mean that I am pro current commander in chief, nor previous commander in chief. Nor does that mean I approve of congress’s actions. The commander in chief as well as our congress are not putting their lives on the line when they order our military to some action. On the other hand, the members of our military have committed to put their lives on the line to do what has been requested of them, whether it costs them their lives or not. They put their lives and trust that ‘We the People’ are using our vote wisely and not just voting for a party of specific face because we ‘like how they look’ or say what we want to here.

If you don’t like what the military is doing, figure out why they have been ordered to do it (Current MSM is a really poor source. They are more interested in stories that sell and drum up emotion than informing – queue Dire Straits) as well as reflect on who you voted for and why. The military is really only doing what it has been instructed to.

Isn’t military service or defending the US a requirement of being a US citizen?

The problem with a lot of these foreign military campaigns is that people see it as serving certain special interests or political parties (oil, etc).

Looking at Iraq now and what’s going on, I wonder if the US is going to start taking a back seat to a lot of these foreign campaigns since no one wants to see US boots on the ground. Without troops on the ground, you can’t really hold or maintain territory, or really build allies for intelligence/etc…

Longer term, for the terrorists, it looks like they will slowly gather strength since no International power looks to have the will to do anything to send troops in a foreign hostile country. I wonder if this is just the start of a cold/contain war where terrorists start slowly building up strength…and is normal for a while.

I heard Iraq lost near 1.3 billion in military equipment that the ISIS group has now including hundreds of tanks, a couple helicopters, thousands of rounds of ammunition.

[quote=joec]Isn’t military service or defending the US a requirement of being a US citizen?[/quote] Its a bit more nuanced than that.

[quote=joec]The problem with a lot of these foreign military campaigns is that people see it as serving certain special interests or political parties (oil, etc).[/quote]Some of that blame can be laid on our own Main-Stream-Media. Some of that can be laid on poor focus. Some of that can be laid on jingoism that the BushII initiated action used. “Shock and Awe – how corny. They ended up burning a resource that would have identified all of Saddam Hussein’s closest, underground supporters were. I could go on with how that was all F**Ked up..

[quote=joec]Looking at Iraq now and what’s going on, I wonder if the US is going to start taking a back seat to a lot of these foreign campaigns since no one wants to see US boots on the ground. Without troops on the ground, you can’t really hold or maintain territory, or really build allies for intelligence/etc…[/quote]I think they are going to take the approach of ‘remote’ or a ‘button press’ war.

[quote=joec]Longer term, for the terrorists, it looks like they will slowly gather strength since no International power looks to have the will to do anything to send troops in a foreign hostile country. I wonder if this is just the start of a cold/contain war where terrorists start slowly building up strength…and is normal for a while.[/quote]Could be. Looks ok to the politicians, but eventually you will have to deal with the increased internal pressure. I think the best approach if this continues is to bring a strike team in with oil well professionals and deep-plug all the wells that we fixed when over there. Use Carbide and Epoxy mix so that it will tear up drill-heads. Then just walk away. Let them fight over that stupid piece of sand. They have not comp’d us for fixing the wells that Saddam destroyed, new military equipment that they are just abandoning and running away from etc.

[quote=joec]I heard Iraq lost near 1.3 billion in military equipment that the ISIS group has now including hundreds of tanks, a couple helicopters, thousands of rounds of ammunition.[/quote]Something like that. They elected a totally incompetant Shiite, (wanted to drop that extra i) who filled their military command with nepotistic drones who don’t know how to even fight a simple skirmish. The ISIS groups tactics are very simple and they are taking a simple path. A little guerrilla tactics along the road they are using will bring them to a screeching halt.. but now it may even be a little to late for that. It looks like current Iraq military command is planning to fight them IN Baghdad. Dumb. They need to push the battle towards the insurgents and get it away from the populace that can be harmed.

[quote=spdrun]

The other real problem with your position is that to have an effective military, they must follow orders.

Short of an actual severe national emergency like WW II, do we actually want an effective military?[/quote]I think yes. But I think we also need to make sure we hold those we elect to high standards and be open on our discussions of international politics, whether or not force is required, what are the real consequences down the line should we avoid getting involved etc. Too much has been done by stupid sound bites these days. It is easier to make an inflammatory statement than to build a reasoned position and argument.

I don’t think the military is the answer to all situations, but it the military force should be significant enough to give pause to the Kim Jung Il and other puffed up suited dictators – even with all of their self delusions. Too many countries seem to see that military force should be the first not last approach.