[zk]

[quote=Rustico]O.K. ZK,

Here is my link, http://www.peele.net/faq/p3waves.html

You can read for days if you put “genetics” into the site search feature.

A lot of the points made on this thread are developed in the various archived articles.[/quote]

Basically your whole argument is this one link to this one nut’s website? Very disappointing. Here’s a guy who’s obviously got a serious bias and who will twist anything around to fit his views and sell his books.

From his website:

———————————————-
The core beliefs that the alcoholism movement has successfully promulgated are:

Alcoholics don’t drink too much because they intend to, but only because they can’t control their drinking.
Alcoholics inherit their alcoholism and thus are born as alcoholics.
Alcoholism always grow worse without treatment, so that alcoholics can never cut back or quit on their own.
Alcoholism as a disease can strike any individual—it is an “equal-opportunity destroyer”—and respects no social, religious, ethnic or sexual bounds.
Treatment based on AA principles is the only effective treatment for alcoholism—in the words of one proponent, a modern medical “miracle”—without which no one can hope to arrest a drinking problem.
Those who reject the AA approach for their drinking problems, or observers who contradict any of the contentions about alcoholism listed here, are practicing a special denial that means death for alcoholics.
—————————————–

His contention, which shows up throughout his writing, is that the “alcoholism movement,” whatever that is, says that alcoholism is completely determined by genetics, and that from the moment an alcoholic is born, he is fated to become an alcoholic. And he sets up that straw man and knocks it down. Pathetic.

I typed “genetics” in the site’s search engine. I could read for days, but it’s all written by the same biased person. The same Mr. Peele. Mr. Peele, who is trying (with some success, apparently) to sell books.

Reading that clown’s website and coming to any conclusion at all about alcoholism is like watching Fox “News” and coming to a conclusion about republicans or democrats.

Really, Rustico, move beyond Mr. Peele’s book selling malarkey, read some serious research, think for yourself, look closely to see if you don’t share nutjob’s biases, and see if you can’t get a fresh perspective on the issue.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]O.K. ZK,

Here is my link, http://www.peele.net/faq/p3waves.html

You can read for days if you put “genetics” into the site search feature.

A lot of the points made on this thread are developed in the various archived articles.[/quote]

Basically your whole argument is this one link to this one nut’s website? Very disappointing. Here’s a guy who’s obviously got a serious bias and who will twist anything around to fit his views and sell his books.

From his website:

———————————————-
The core beliefs that the alcoholism movement has successfully promulgated are:

Alcoholics don’t drink too much because they intend to, but only because they can’t control their drinking.
Alcoholics inherit their alcoholism and thus are born as alcoholics.
Alcoholism always grow worse without treatment, so that alcoholics can never cut back or quit on their own.
Alcoholism as a disease can strike any individual—it is an “equal-opportunity destroyer”—and respects no social, religious, ethnic or sexual bounds.
Treatment based on AA principles is the only effective treatment for alcoholism—in the words of one proponent, a modern medical “miracle”—without which no one can hope to arrest a drinking problem.
Those who reject the AA approach for their drinking problems, or observers who contradict any of the contentions about alcoholism listed here, are practicing a special denial that means death for alcoholics.
—————————————–

His contention, which shows up throughout his writing, is that the “alcoholism movement,” whatever that is, says that alcoholism is completely determined by genetics, and that from the moment an alcoholic is born, he is fated to become an alcoholic. And he sets up that straw man and knocks it down. Pathetic.

I typed “genetics” in the site’s search engine. I could read for days, but it’s all written by the same biased person. The same Mr. Peele. Mr. Peele, who is trying (with some success, apparently) to sell books.

Reading that clown’s website and coming to any conclusion at all about alcoholism is like watching Fox “News” and coming to a conclusion about republicans or democrats.

Really, Rustico, move beyond Mr. Peele’s book selling malarkey, read some serious research, think for yourself, look closely to see if you don’t share nutjob’s biases, and see if you can’t get a fresh perspective on the issue.

[zk]

[quote=briansd1]

I think that we do a disservice to the addicted by saying it’s genetic. They interpret that as nothing can be done so they’re just condemned to addiction.

[/quote]

Sure, except I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s strictly genetic. The other side of the coin is that if we say there’s no genetic component, we’re also doing a disservice. Knowledge, in the immortal words of Emil Faber, is good.

[zk]

[quote=briansd1]

I think that we do a disservice to the addicted by saying it’s genetic. They interpret that as nothing can be done so they’re just condemned to addiction.

[/quote]

Sure, except I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s strictly genetic. The other side of the coin is that if we say there’s no genetic component, we’re also doing a disservice. Knowledge, in the immortal words of Emil Faber, is good.

[zk]

[quote=briansd1]

I think that we do a disservice to the addicted by saying it’s genetic. They interpret that as nothing can be done so they’re just condemned to addiction.

[/quote]

Sure, except I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s strictly genetic. The other side of the coin is that if we say there’s no genetic component, we’re also doing a disservice. Knowledge, in the immortal words of Emil Faber, is good.

[zk]

[quote=briansd1]

I think that we do a disservice to the addicted by saying it’s genetic. They interpret that as nothing can be done so they’re just condemned to addiction.

[/quote]

Sure, except I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s strictly genetic. The other side of the coin is that if we say there’s no genetic component, we’re also doing a disservice. Knowledge, in the immortal words of Emil Faber, is good.

[zk]

[quote=briansd1]

I think that we do a disservice to the addicted by saying it’s genetic. They interpret that as nothing can be done so they’re just condemned to addiction.

[/quote]

Sure, except I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s strictly genetic. The other side of the coin is that if we say there’s no genetic component, we’re also doing a disservice. Knowledge, in the immortal words of Emil Faber, is good.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]This was where I drew the conclusion that we do not agree,ZK. “If your assertion was that there is no genetic component to alcoholism, then I strongly disagree. In fact, studies have shown not only that there is likely a genetic component, but they have shown which genes contribute.”

I asked you for a link. You said you would get back with one. Maybe I missed it. I have read studies that report those claims and they qualify as the type of work I am criticizing. I did not get the idea that we are agreeing,mostly because of the issue of specificity I thought you were advancing. If you were not claiming genes specific to Alcoholism, Bulimia and Anorexia,that specifically debilitates those people in those ways and not others, than we are closer to agreement.[/quote]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1097/01.ALC.0000108645.54345.98/pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/16/2421.full

http://journals.lww.com/jpharmacogenetics/Abstract/2005/11000/ADH4_gene_variation_is_associated_with_alcohol_and.1.aspx

This one has more links at the bottom:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a…

These are studies that point to specific genes that increase one’s predisposition to alcoholism.

But genes specific to alcoholism are irrelevant to my main argument, which is that alcoholism has a strong genetic component. Whether the constellation of genes for alcoholism (or the constellations for anorexia or bulimia) also increase one’s predisposition for other problems is irrelevant for my argument. If the genes that make it more likely that you’ll have alcoholism also make it more likely that you’ll have some other problem, that doesn’t change the fact that those genes predispose you to alcoholism.

Even if having certain personality traits (e.g. social inhibition, impulse control problems) have a genetic component, and those traits make it more likely you’ll have alcoholism, then that constitutes a genetic component for alcoholism. The genes don’t by any means have to be specific to alcoholism and not affect anything else.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]This was where I drew the conclusion that we do not agree,ZK. “If your assertion was that there is no genetic component to alcoholism, then I strongly disagree. In fact, studies have shown not only that there is likely a genetic component, but they have shown which genes contribute.”

I asked you for a link. You said you would get back with one. Maybe I missed it. I have read studies that report those claims and they qualify as the type of work I am criticizing. I did not get the idea that we are agreeing,mostly because of the issue of specificity I thought you were advancing. If you were not claiming genes specific to Alcoholism, Bulimia and Anorexia,that specifically debilitates those people in those ways and not others, than we are closer to agreement.[/quote]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1097/01.ALC.0000108645.54345.98/pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/16/2421.full

http://journals.lww.com/jpharmacogenetics/Abstract/2005/11000/ADH4_gene_variation_is_associated_with_alcohol_and.1.aspx

This one has more links at the bottom:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a…

These are studies that point to specific genes that increase one’s predisposition to alcoholism.

But genes specific to alcoholism are irrelevant to my main argument, which is that alcoholism has a strong genetic component. Whether the constellation of genes for alcoholism (or the constellations for anorexia or bulimia) also increase one’s predisposition for other problems is irrelevant for my argument. If the genes that make it more likely that you’ll have alcoholism also make it more likely that you’ll have some other problem, that doesn’t change the fact that those genes predispose you to alcoholism.

Even if having certain personality traits (e.g. social inhibition, impulse control problems) have a genetic component, and those traits make it more likely you’ll have alcoholism, then that constitutes a genetic component for alcoholism. The genes don’t by any means have to be specific to alcoholism and not affect anything else.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]This was where I drew the conclusion that we do not agree,ZK. “If your assertion was that there is no genetic component to alcoholism, then I strongly disagree. In fact, studies have shown not only that there is likely a genetic component, but they have shown which genes contribute.”

I asked you for a link. You said you would get back with one. Maybe I missed it. I have read studies that report those claims and they qualify as the type of work I am criticizing. I did not get the idea that we are agreeing,mostly because of the issue of specificity I thought you were advancing. If you were not claiming genes specific to Alcoholism, Bulimia and Anorexia,that specifically debilitates those people in those ways and not others, than we are closer to agreement.[/quote]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1097/01.ALC.0000108645.54345.98/pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/16/2421.full

http://journals.lww.com/jpharmacogenetics/Abstract/2005/11000/ADH4_gene_variation_is_associated_with_alcohol_and.1.aspx

This one has more links at the bottom:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a…

These are studies that point to specific genes that increase one’s predisposition to alcoholism.

But genes specific to alcoholism are irrelevant to my main argument, which is that alcoholism has a strong genetic component. Whether the constellation of genes for alcoholism (or the constellations for anorexia or bulimia) also increase one’s predisposition for other problems is irrelevant for my argument. If the genes that make it more likely that you’ll have alcoholism also make it more likely that you’ll have some other problem, that doesn’t change the fact that those genes predispose you to alcoholism.

Even if having certain personality traits (e.g. social inhibition, impulse control problems) have a genetic component, and those traits make it more likely you’ll have alcoholism, then that constitutes a genetic component for alcoholism. The genes don’t by any means have to be specific to alcoholism and not affect anything else.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]This was where I drew the conclusion that we do not agree,ZK. “If your assertion was that there is no genetic component to alcoholism, then I strongly disagree. In fact, studies have shown not only that there is likely a genetic component, but they have shown which genes contribute.”

I asked you for a link. You said you would get back with one. Maybe I missed it. I have read studies that report those claims and they qualify as the type of work I am criticizing. I did not get the idea that we are agreeing,mostly because of the issue of specificity I thought you were advancing. If you were not claiming genes specific to Alcoholism, Bulimia and Anorexia,that specifically debilitates those people in those ways and not others, than we are closer to agreement.[/quote]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1097/01.ALC.0000108645.54345.98/pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/16/2421.full

http://journals.lww.com/jpharmacogenetics/Abstract/2005/11000/ADH4_gene_variation_is_associated_with_alcohol_and.1.aspx

This one has more links at the bottom:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a…

These are studies that point to specific genes that increase one’s predisposition to alcoholism.

But genes specific to alcoholism are irrelevant to my main argument, which is that alcoholism has a strong genetic component. Whether the constellation of genes for alcoholism (or the constellations for anorexia or bulimia) also increase one’s predisposition for other problems is irrelevant for my argument. If the genes that make it more likely that you’ll have alcoholism also make it more likely that you’ll have some other problem, that doesn’t change the fact that those genes predispose you to alcoholism.

Even if having certain personality traits (e.g. social inhibition, impulse control problems) have a genetic component, and those traits make it more likely you’ll have alcoholism, then that constitutes a genetic component for alcoholism. The genes don’t by any means have to be specific to alcoholism and not affect anything else.

[zk]

[quote=Rustico]This was where I drew the conclusion that we do not agree,ZK. “If your assertion was that there is no genetic component to alcoholism, then I strongly disagree. In fact, studies have shown not only that there is likely a genetic component, but they have shown which genes contribute.”

I asked you for a link. You said you would get back with one. Maybe I missed it. I have read studies that report those claims and they qualify as the type of work I am criticizing. I did not get the idea that we are agreeing,mostly because of the issue of specificity I thought you were advancing. If you were not claiming genes specific to Alcoholism, Bulimia and Anorexia,that specifically debilitates those people in those ways and not others, than we are closer to agreement.[/quote]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1097/01.ALC.0000108645.54345.98/pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/16/2421.full

http://journals.lww.com/jpharmacogenetics/Abstract/2005/11000/ADH4_gene_variation_is_associated_with_alcohol_and.1.aspx

This one has more links at the bottom:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/a…

These are studies that point to specific genes that increase one’s predisposition to alcoholism.

But genes specific to alcoholism are irrelevant to my main argument, which is that alcoholism has a strong genetic component. Whether the constellation of genes for alcoholism (or the constellations for anorexia or bulimia) also increase one’s predisposition for other problems is irrelevant for my argument. If the genes that make it more likely that you’ll have alcoholism also make it more likely that you’ll have some other problem, that doesn’t change the fact that those genes predispose you to alcoholism.

Even if having certain personality traits (e.g. social inhibition, impulse control problems) have a genetic component, and those traits make it more likely you’ll have alcoholism, then that constitutes a genetic component for alcoholism. The genes don’t by any means have to be specific to alcoholism and not affect anything else.

[zk]

Gotta go back to work, but here’s something to start you off. At the bottom are references to several studies indicating a genetic component to alcoholism.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

[zk]

Gotta go back to work, but here’s something to start you off. At the bottom are references to several studies indicating a genetic component to alcoholism.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

[zk]

Gotta go back to work, but here’s something to start you off. At the bottom are references to several studies indicating a genetic component to alcoholism.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

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