[urbanrealtor]

This is a comment regarding the original thread post.

If anyone thinks that insulting someone who serves them food is a good idea, I laugh at what stuff you have eaten in your life.

During college, I worked as a waiter. Make no mistake. The one who handles the food you put in your mouth has the ultimate control.

If someone gave me bad service I would give them 15% instead of 20% and mention it courteously and briefly. If it was terrible service, I would stiff them and then never eat there again.

If you think that going to a different server is a good enough measure, think again. Servers tend to party, drink, and sleep together. They certainly know which clients are pricks.

I recall one rude gentleman that thought it appropriate to lecture our staff on wine tasting and etiquette. He drank nothing but red Gallo cooking wine (in Chateauneuf-du-Pape bottles) for a year. He never knew about it but we got our revenge and usually a tip afterward.

[urbanrealtor]

This is a comment regarding the original thread post.

If anyone thinks that insulting someone who serves them food is a good idea, I laugh at what stuff you have eaten in your life.

During college, I worked as a waiter. Make no mistake. The one who handles the food you put in your mouth has the ultimate control.

If someone gave me bad service I would give them 15% instead of 20% and mention it courteously and briefly. If it was terrible service, I would stiff them and then never eat there again.

If you think that going to a different server is a good enough measure, think again. Servers tend to party, drink, and sleep together. They certainly know which clients are pricks.

I recall one rude gentleman that thought it appropriate to lecture our staff on wine tasting and etiquette. He drank nothing but red Gallo cooking wine (in Chateauneuf-du-Pape bottles) for a year. He never knew about it but we got our revenge and usually a tip afterward.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=nostradamus]Arrogance in what way?

OT: I’m intrigued by the fact that many listings I see still show some arrogance on the part of he sellers. They should be puckered up for some serious ass kissing right now, not acting like it’s 2005. B2VABCOE is fine (and expected), but when they say things like “must use preferred lender” or “seller will not pay for repairs” or “seller to select services” and so on, I wonder what they’re thinking. [/quote]
What I meant was there were several people talking about investing and talking about getting a good deal. They did so in a way that cantankerous. They may have had some inside track but I did not see that’s all.

As far as the other things, the remarks you mention are common. The market has dropped but the seller still has the thing you want to buy. If a buyer does not “verify all before close of escrow” (b2vabcoe), then he is being negligent or has an agent who is negligent. Often those remarks are dictated by the listing agent’s broker or the bank who is the seller. As far as seller selecting services, the banks are often unwilling to budge. Usually that is due to them getting a cheap deal by buying escrow (or other) services in bulk. Ironically, they will often come down in price by 20k but not change to an escrow company who will charge 200 bucks more. Weird.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=nostradamus]Arrogance in what way?

OT: I’m intrigued by the fact that many listings I see still show some arrogance on the part of he sellers. They should be puckered up for some serious ass kissing right now, not acting like it’s 2005. B2VABCOE is fine (and expected), but when they say things like “must use preferred lender” or “seller will not pay for repairs” or “seller to select services” and so on, I wonder what they’re thinking. [/quote]
What I meant was there were several people talking about investing and talking about getting a good deal. They did so in a way that cantankerous. They may have had some inside track but I did not see that’s all.

As far as the other things, the remarks you mention are common. The market has dropped but the seller still has the thing you want to buy. If a buyer does not “verify all before close of escrow” (b2vabcoe), then he is being negligent or has an agent who is negligent. Often those remarks are dictated by the listing agent’s broker or the bank who is the seller. As far as seller selecting services, the banks are often unwilling to budge. Usually that is due to them getting a cheap deal by buying escrow (or other) services in bulk. Ironically, they will often come down in price by 20k but not change to an escrow company who will charge 200 bucks more. Weird.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=nostradamus]Arrogance in what way?

OT: I’m intrigued by the fact that many listings I see still show some arrogance on the part of he sellers. They should be puckered up for some serious ass kissing right now, not acting like it’s 2005. B2VABCOE is fine (and expected), but when they say things like “must use preferred lender” or “seller will not pay for repairs” or “seller to select services” and so on, I wonder what they’re thinking. [/quote]
What I meant was there were several people talking about investing and talking about getting a good deal. They did so in a way that cantankerous. They may have had some inside track but I did not see that’s all.

As far as the other things, the remarks you mention are common. The market has dropped but the seller still has the thing you want to buy. If a buyer does not “verify all before close of escrow” (b2vabcoe), then he is being negligent or has an agent who is negligent. Often those remarks are dictated by the listing agent’s broker or the bank who is the seller. As far as seller selecting services, the banks are often unwilling to budge. Usually that is due to them getting a cheap deal by buying escrow (or other) services in bulk. Ironically, they will often come down in price by 20k but not change to an escrow company who will charge 200 bucks more. Weird.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=nostradamus]Arrogance in what way?

OT: I’m intrigued by the fact that many listings I see still show some arrogance on the part of he sellers. They should be puckered up for some serious ass kissing right now, not acting like it’s 2005. B2VABCOE is fine (and expected), but when they say things like “must use preferred lender” or “seller will not pay for repairs” or “seller to select services” and so on, I wonder what they’re thinking. [/quote]
What I meant was there were several people talking about investing and talking about getting a good deal. They did so in a way that cantankerous. They may have had some inside track but I did not see that’s all.

As far as the other things, the remarks you mention are common. The market has dropped but the seller still has the thing you want to buy. If a buyer does not “verify all before close of escrow” (b2vabcoe), then he is being negligent or has an agent who is negligent. Often those remarks are dictated by the listing agent’s broker or the bank who is the seller. As far as seller selecting services, the banks are often unwilling to budge. Usually that is due to them getting a cheap deal by buying escrow (or other) services in bulk. Ironically, they will often come down in price by 20k but not change to an escrow company who will charge 200 bucks more. Weird.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=nostradamus]Arrogance in what way?

OT: I’m intrigued by the fact that many listings I see still show some arrogance on the part of he sellers. They should be puckered up for some serious ass kissing right now, not acting like it’s 2005. B2VABCOE is fine (and expected), but when they say things like “must use preferred lender” or “seller will not pay for repairs” or “seller to select services” and so on, I wonder what they’re thinking. [/quote]
What I meant was there were several people talking about investing and talking about getting a good deal. They did so in a way that cantankerous. They may have had some inside track but I did not see that’s all.

As far as the other things, the remarks you mention are common. The market has dropped but the seller still has the thing you want to buy. If a buyer does not “verify all before close of escrow” (b2vabcoe), then he is being negligent or has an agent who is negligent. Often those remarks are dictated by the listing agent’s broker or the bank who is the seller. As far as seller selecting services, the banks are often unwilling to budge. Usually that is due to them getting a cheap deal by buying escrow (or other) services in bulk. Ironically, they will often come down in price by 20k but not change to an escrow company who will charge 200 bucks more. Weird.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]”The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.”

Urban, you have nailed the heart of the matter: the American people are unquestionably dumb enough to be “conned” out of their democratic principles. Just as they were dumb enough to be “conned” into a war with absolutely no evidence whatsoever against our enemy. It has been my position all along that Obama’s campaign is one of the most brilliant con jobs in American political history because he may be able to convince Americans to give up willingly that which they would not allow to be taken by force. Why? Because of his Messianic following and silky rhetoric. I suspect it would be infinitely harder for the walking corpse/McCain to convince Americans to surrender their rights. Don’t you?

You may say that if Americans are dumb enough to let this happen, then we get what we deserve.

Unfortunately, you and I will go down with the idiots. Hardly seems fair.

[/quote]
Nope.

Don’t buy it.

He is only messianic in comparison to McCain and due to the ambient anger about Bush.

Ed Rollins has some things to say about this from a Republican perspective.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/rollins.historic/index.html

He has what appears to be a minimum winning coalition of support.

This coalition will factionalize the minute he becomes the ruler instead of the critic-in-chief.

He is an effete intellectual. He is John Kerry with some style (kind of like a Tucker Carlson with rhetorical ability) and grace.

I don’t doubt that he is a genuine believer. In fact, I make no judgment and have no opinions on his beliefs. Instead, I think that he (like Clinton, who really was a believer) will just be one more liberal governing a country of non-liberals.

So while I still think we are often dumb enough to lose our way of life, I don’t think this will be the time.

I will end this rant with 2 quotes:

“Remember how the Nazis came to power. THEY WERE ELECTED!!!” — Victor Magagne, UCSD Political Science perfesser

“And this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.” –Padme Amidala, former queen of Naboo

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]”The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.”

Urban, you have nailed the heart of the matter: the American people are unquestionably dumb enough to be “conned” out of their democratic principles. Just as they were dumb enough to be “conned” into a war with absolutely no evidence whatsoever against our enemy. It has been my position all along that Obama’s campaign is one of the most brilliant con jobs in American political history because he may be able to convince Americans to give up willingly that which they would not allow to be taken by force. Why? Because of his Messianic following and silky rhetoric. I suspect it would be infinitely harder for the walking corpse/McCain to convince Americans to surrender their rights. Don’t you?

You may say that if Americans are dumb enough to let this happen, then we get what we deserve.

Unfortunately, you and I will go down with the idiots. Hardly seems fair.

[/quote]
Nope.

Don’t buy it.

He is only messianic in comparison to McCain and due to the ambient anger about Bush.

Ed Rollins has some things to say about this from a Republican perspective.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/rollins.historic/index.html

He has what appears to be a minimum winning coalition of support.

This coalition will factionalize the minute he becomes the ruler instead of the critic-in-chief.

He is an effete intellectual. He is John Kerry with some style (kind of like a Tucker Carlson with rhetorical ability) and grace.

I don’t doubt that he is a genuine believer. In fact, I make no judgment and have no opinions on his beliefs. Instead, I think that he (like Clinton, who really was a believer) will just be one more liberal governing a country of non-liberals.

So while I still think we are often dumb enough to lose our way of life, I don’t think this will be the time.

I will end this rant with 2 quotes:

“Remember how the Nazis came to power. THEY WERE ELECTED!!!” — Victor Magagne, UCSD Political Science perfesser

“And this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.” –Padme Amidala, former queen of Naboo

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]”The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.”

Urban, you have nailed the heart of the matter: the American people are unquestionably dumb enough to be “conned” out of their democratic principles. Just as they were dumb enough to be “conned” into a war with absolutely no evidence whatsoever against our enemy. It has been my position all along that Obama’s campaign is one of the most brilliant con jobs in American political history because he may be able to convince Americans to give up willingly that which they would not allow to be taken by force. Why? Because of his Messianic following and silky rhetoric. I suspect it would be infinitely harder for the walking corpse/McCain to convince Americans to surrender their rights. Don’t you?

You may say that if Americans are dumb enough to let this happen, then we get what we deserve.

Unfortunately, you and I will go down with the idiots. Hardly seems fair.

[/quote]
Nope.

Don’t buy it.

He is only messianic in comparison to McCain and due to the ambient anger about Bush.

Ed Rollins has some things to say about this from a Republican perspective.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/rollins.historic/index.html

He has what appears to be a minimum winning coalition of support.

This coalition will factionalize the minute he becomes the ruler instead of the critic-in-chief.

He is an effete intellectual. He is John Kerry with some style (kind of like a Tucker Carlson with rhetorical ability) and grace.

I don’t doubt that he is a genuine believer. In fact, I make no judgment and have no opinions on his beliefs. Instead, I think that he (like Clinton, who really was a believer) will just be one more liberal governing a country of non-liberals.

So while I still think we are often dumb enough to lose our way of life, I don’t think this will be the time.

I will end this rant with 2 quotes:

“Remember how the Nazis came to power. THEY WERE ELECTED!!!” — Victor Magagne, UCSD Political Science perfesser

“And this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.” –Padme Amidala, former queen of Naboo

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]”The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.”

Urban, you have nailed the heart of the matter: the American people are unquestionably dumb enough to be “conned” out of their democratic principles. Just as they were dumb enough to be “conned” into a war with absolutely no evidence whatsoever against our enemy. It has been my position all along that Obama’s campaign is one of the most brilliant con jobs in American political history because he may be able to convince Americans to give up willingly that which they would not allow to be taken by force. Why? Because of his Messianic following and silky rhetoric. I suspect it would be infinitely harder for the walking corpse/McCain to convince Americans to surrender their rights. Don’t you?

You may say that if Americans are dumb enough to let this happen, then we get what we deserve.

Unfortunately, you and I will go down with the idiots. Hardly seems fair.

[/quote]
Nope.

Don’t buy it.

He is only messianic in comparison to McCain and due to the ambient anger about Bush.

Ed Rollins has some things to say about this from a Republican perspective.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/rollins.historic/index.html

He has what appears to be a minimum winning coalition of support.

This coalition will factionalize the minute he becomes the ruler instead of the critic-in-chief.

He is an effete intellectual. He is John Kerry with some style (kind of like a Tucker Carlson with rhetorical ability) and grace.

I don’t doubt that he is a genuine believer. In fact, I make no judgment and have no opinions on his beliefs. Instead, I think that he (like Clinton, who really was a believer) will just be one more liberal governing a country of non-liberals.

So while I still think we are often dumb enough to lose our way of life, I don’t think this will be the time.

I will end this rant with 2 quotes:

“Remember how the Nazis came to power. THEY WERE ELECTED!!!” — Victor Magagne, UCSD Political Science perfesser

“And this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.” –Padme Amidala, former queen of Naboo

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]”The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.”

Urban, you have nailed the heart of the matter: the American people are unquestionably dumb enough to be “conned” out of their democratic principles. Just as they were dumb enough to be “conned” into a war with absolutely no evidence whatsoever against our enemy. It has been my position all along that Obama’s campaign is one of the most brilliant con jobs in American political history because he may be able to convince Americans to give up willingly that which they would not allow to be taken by force. Why? Because of his Messianic following and silky rhetoric. I suspect it would be infinitely harder for the walking corpse/McCain to convince Americans to surrender their rights. Don’t you?

You may say that if Americans are dumb enough to let this happen, then we get what we deserve.

Unfortunately, you and I will go down with the idiots. Hardly seems fair.

[/quote]
Nope.

Don’t buy it.

He is only messianic in comparison to McCain and due to the ambient anger about Bush.

Ed Rollins has some things to say about this from a Republican perspective.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/rollins.historic/index.html

He has what appears to be a minimum winning coalition of support.

This coalition will factionalize the minute he becomes the ruler instead of the critic-in-chief.

He is an effete intellectual. He is John Kerry with some style (kind of like a Tucker Carlson with rhetorical ability) and grace.

I don’t doubt that he is a genuine believer. In fact, I make no judgment and have no opinions on his beliefs. Instead, I think that he (like Clinton, who really was a believer) will just be one more liberal governing a country of non-liberals.

So while I still think we are often dumb enough to lose our way of life, I don’t think this will be the time.

I will end this rant with 2 quotes:

“Remember how the Nazis came to power. THEY WERE ELECTED!!!” — Victor Magagne, UCSD Political Science perfesser

“And this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.” –Padme Amidala, former queen of Naboo

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]

Interesting thoughts, Urban. And they would give me great comfort, except for one pesky detail: we are now in completely UNCHARTED territory. If you can find precedence for the world’s only superpower (bristling with 300 million people) falling in a slow-motion collapse over a period of months, I’d be glad to see it 😉 My concern is that if our economic foundation collapses, it may be naive to expect that our political foundation can and will remain untouched. And so history may no longer serve as a reliable guide for what we are about to encounter.
[/quote]
Your point is well taken. Democracy was never invented. It exists (and always has) as a means to address the inequities inherent in capitalism. So your concern that the economy underpins politics has a point.
However, I don’t buy that this is totally uncharted. We have had relatively cataclysmic economic events throughout our history. The fed was wished into being by banks wanting to decrease the frequency of those events. The current failures are all in the banking department. They will result in mass layoffs and that really matters.
However, we still have a highly diversified economy with lots of developed resources and industry. Even if our debt and economic issues were denominated in foreign currency, that would keep us from going the direction of Argentina’s last major fuckup (which was distinct from their history with exogenous political influence).
You need a true collapse to get there. We don’t have that going on right now.

[quote=partypup]

Also, no one on this board believes (or should believe) that the president has the power to *steer* us anywhere. Only the invisible hands behind a president have that power. The question is: who are the hands that pull Obama’s strings, and what is their agenda? Make no mistake: any first term senator who can raise $800 million while millions of Americans lose their homes and struggle to put food on the table, garner the immediate and unwavering support of the media and defeat the 20-year old Clinton Machine has VERY powerful hands that are moving his.
[/quote]
No, I think you see too much agency there. Obama draws together a large coalition of disaffected republicans and independents in addition to democrats. Many people, rich and poor, have given money to him. Again you are looking at broad effective demand for the supply of change he offers and ascribing this demand to Dr. Evil. He just barely won against Clinton. He was behind in the polls several weeks ago. He seemed like a long shot a year ago. Last night I saw houses in my neighborhood with Shepard Fairey’s Obama posters on them. It looks more like Mexico in the 70’s with this weird Messianic adoration. AND NONE OF THIS SEEMS FAKE OR INORGANIC OR THE AGENDA OF EVIL MEN; PEOPLE ARE JUST PISSED. Thats what happens.

[quote=partypup]

And distressingly, I think we’ve already seen the lengths to which our Congress will go to in order to protect out freedoms: both parties blithely looked away as Bush pushed through the Patriot Act; they have repeatedly agreed to extensions of the Act; they have continued to fund a criminal war; and impeachment has been taken “off the table” for the only U.S. president in U.S. history who can be classified as a war criminal

So much for checks and balances.
[/quote]
While I don’t like the PA, it mostly just brings us in line with international security standards. Some parts will go away and some parts will get stronger.
Also, impeachment is not an effective strategic goal.

[quote=partypup]

The danger I see here is that people who have spent the past 232 years living — on an uninterrupted basis — in a democracy tend to take for granted what people living in Germany, Russia, Peru, Argentina and Iran do NOT. Democracy is not a given; it is a privilege that must be closely and meticulously guarded. Moving through our lives and making decisions about those who will lead us based on (a) the belief that the unique system we have always had will continue to exist without the need to defend it and (b) events in the past will always serve as a guide for the future, could be our fatal undoing.
[/quote]
I do agree that being observant and vigilant is important. But our system is not unique and history is a good starting point for analysis. Democracy is pretty durable except when people vote against it (eg: Germany).
[quote=partypup]

I’m sure you’ve heard of Nassim Taleeb’s book. I worry that this could be a Black Swan moment. Much as the world was not expecting and could not have *foreseen* a global systemic collapse until it happened, we in the U.S. do not expect our democracy to ever be taken away from us and will doubtless be dumbfounded when it happens.
[/quote]
I don’t agree it could be taken from us.
I only agree that we are potentially dumb enough to give it away.
[quote=partypup]
And at the rate events are unfolding, and given the opacity of Obama’s resume and agenda and Biden’s exceptionally creepy remarks, I have a nagging suspicion that we are going to be dumbfounded.
[/quote]

The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]

Interesting thoughts, Urban. And they would give me great comfort, except for one pesky detail: we are now in completely UNCHARTED territory. If you can find precedence for the world’s only superpower (bristling with 300 million people) falling in a slow-motion collapse over a period of months, I’d be glad to see it 😉 My concern is that if our economic foundation collapses, it may be naive to expect that our political foundation can and will remain untouched. And so history may no longer serve as a reliable guide for what we are about to encounter.
[/quote]
Your point is well taken. Democracy was never invented. It exists (and always has) as a means to address the inequities inherent in capitalism. So your concern that the economy underpins politics has a point.
However, I don’t buy that this is totally uncharted. We have had relatively cataclysmic economic events throughout our history. The fed was wished into being by banks wanting to decrease the frequency of those events. The current failures are all in the banking department. They will result in mass layoffs and that really matters.
However, we still have a highly diversified economy with lots of developed resources and industry. Even if our debt and economic issues were denominated in foreign currency, that would keep us from going the direction of Argentina’s last major fuckup (which was distinct from their history with exogenous political influence).
You need a true collapse to get there. We don’t have that going on right now.

[quote=partypup]

Also, no one on this board believes (or should believe) that the president has the power to *steer* us anywhere. Only the invisible hands behind a president have that power. The question is: who are the hands that pull Obama’s strings, and what is their agenda? Make no mistake: any first term senator who can raise $800 million while millions of Americans lose their homes and struggle to put food on the table, garner the immediate and unwavering support of the media and defeat the 20-year old Clinton Machine has VERY powerful hands that are moving his.
[/quote]
No, I think you see too much agency there. Obama draws together a large coalition of disaffected republicans and independents in addition to democrats. Many people, rich and poor, have given money to him. Again you are looking at broad effective demand for the supply of change he offers and ascribing this demand to Dr. Evil. He just barely won against Clinton. He was behind in the polls several weeks ago. He seemed like a long shot a year ago. Last night I saw houses in my neighborhood with Shepard Fairey’s Obama posters on them. It looks more like Mexico in the 70’s with this weird Messianic adoration. AND NONE OF THIS SEEMS FAKE OR INORGANIC OR THE AGENDA OF EVIL MEN; PEOPLE ARE JUST PISSED. Thats what happens.

[quote=partypup]

And distressingly, I think we’ve already seen the lengths to which our Congress will go to in order to protect out freedoms: both parties blithely looked away as Bush pushed through the Patriot Act; they have repeatedly agreed to extensions of the Act; they have continued to fund a criminal war; and impeachment has been taken “off the table” for the only U.S. president in U.S. history who can be classified as a war criminal

So much for checks and balances.
[/quote]
While I don’t like the PA, it mostly just brings us in line with international security standards. Some parts will go away and some parts will get stronger.
Also, impeachment is not an effective strategic goal.

[quote=partypup]

The danger I see here is that people who have spent the past 232 years living — on an uninterrupted basis — in a democracy tend to take for granted what people living in Germany, Russia, Peru, Argentina and Iran do NOT. Democracy is not a given; it is a privilege that must be closely and meticulously guarded. Moving through our lives and making decisions about those who will lead us based on (a) the belief that the unique system we have always had will continue to exist without the need to defend it and (b) events in the past will always serve as a guide for the future, could be our fatal undoing.
[/quote]
I do agree that being observant and vigilant is important. But our system is not unique and history is a good starting point for analysis. Democracy is pretty durable except when people vote against it (eg: Germany).
[quote=partypup]

I’m sure you’ve heard of Nassim Taleeb’s book. I worry that this could be a Black Swan moment. Much as the world was not expecting and could not have *foreseen* a global systemic collapse until it happened, we in the U.S. do not expect our democracy to ever be taken away from us and will doubtless be dumbfounded when it happens.
[/quote]
I don’t agree it could be taken from us.
I only agree that we are potentially dumb enough to give it away.
[quote=partypup]
And at the rate events are unfolding, and given the opacity of Obama’s resume and agenda and Biden’s exceptionally creepy remarks, I have a nagging suspicion that we are going to be dumbfounded.
[/quote]

The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=partypup]

Interesting thoughts, Urban. And they would give me great comfort, except for one pesky detail: we are now in completely UNCHARTED territory. If you can find precedence for the world’s only superpower (bristling with 300 million people) falling in a slow-motion collapse over a period of months, I’d be glad to see it 😉 My concern is that if our economic foundation collapses, it may be naive to expect that our political foundation can and will remain untouched. And so history may no longer serve as a reliable guide for what we are about to encounter.
[/quote]
Your point is well taken. Democracy was never invented. It exists (and always has) as a means to address the inequities inherent in capitalism. So your concern that the economy underpins politics has a point.
However, I don’t buy that this is totally uncharted. We have had relatively cataclysmic economic events throughout our history. The fed was wished into being by banks wanting to decrease the frequency of those events. The current failures are all in the banking department. They will result in mass layoffs and that really matters.
However, we still have a highly diversified economy with lots of developed resources and industry. Even if our debt and economic issues were denominated in foreign currency, that would keep us from going the direction of Argentina’s last major fuckup (which was distinct from their history with exogenous political influence).
You need a true collapse to get there. We don’t have that going on right now.

[quote=partypup]

Also, no one on this board believes (or should believe) that the president has the power to *steer* us anywhere. Only the invisible hands behind a president have that power. The question is: who are the hands that pull Obama’s strings, and what is their agenda? Make no mistake: any first term senator who can raise $800 million while millions of Americans lose their homes and struggle to put food on the table, garner the immediate and unwavering support of the media and defeat the 20-year old Clinton Machine has VERY powerful hands that are moving his.
[/quote]
No, I think you see too much agency there. Obama draws together a large coalition of disaffected republicans and independents in addition to democrats. Many people, rich and poor, have given money to him. Again you are looking at broad effective demand for the supply of change he offers and ascribing this demand to Dr. Evil. He just barely won against Clinton. He was behind in the polls several weeks ago. He seemed like a long shot a year ago. Last night I saw houses in my neighborhood with Shepard Fairey’s Obama posters on them. It looks more like Mexico in the 70’s with this weird Messianic adoration. AND NONE OF THIS SEEMS FAKE OR INORGANIC OR THE AGENDA OF EVIL MEN; PEOPLE ARE JUST PISSED. Thats what happens.

[quote=partypup]

And distressingly, I think we’ve already seen the lengths to which our Congress will go to in order to protect out freedoms: both parties blithely looked away as Bush pushed through the Patriot Act; they have repeatedly agreed to extensions of the Act; they have continued to fund a criminal war; and impeachment has been taken “off the table” for the only U.S. president in U.S. history who can be classified as a war criminal

So much for checks and balances.
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While I don’t like the PA, it mostly just brings us in line with international security standards. Some parts will go away and some parts will get stronger.
Also, impeachment is not an effective strategic goal.

[quote=partypup]

The danger I see here is that people who have spent the past 232 years living — on an uninterrupted basis — in a democracy tend to take for granted what people living in Germany, Russia, Peru, Argentina and Iran do NOT. Democracy is not a given; it is a privilege that must be closely and meticulously guarded. Moving through our lives and making decisions about those who will lead us based on (a) the belief that the unique system we have always had will continue to exist without the need to defend it and (b) events in the past will always serve as a guide for the future, could be our fatal undoing.
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I do agree that being observant and vigilant is important. But our system is not unique and history is a good starting point for analysis. Democracy is pretty durable except when people vote against it (eg: Germany).
[quote=partypup]

I’m sure you’ve heard of Nassim Taleeb’s book. I worry that this could be a Black Swan moment. Much as the world was not expecting and could not have *foreseen* a global systemic collapse until it happened, we in the U.S. do not expect our democracy to ever be taken away from us and will doubtless be dumbfounded when it happens.
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I don’t agree it could be taken from us.
I only agree that we are potentially dumb enough to give it away.
[quote=partypup]
And at the rate events are unfolding, and given the opacity of Obama’s resume and agenda and Biden’s exceptionally creepy remarks, I have a nagging suspicion that we are going to be dumbfounded.
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The general assertion here that we are just victims here is not one that has validity. No one may enter the house of strong man without his permission and so no one may take away our power just by force. We may be dumb enough to be conned out of political power and in that sense you have a point.

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