[urbanrealtor]

Interesting discussion.

I see some good point put together here.

While some posters, (eg: patientrenter and econprof) frame things in non-analytical and facile ways, they still have good points.

I think that I would like to know more about this before putting forward an opinion. I wish someone would put together a cnn-style explainer on it. The specific question I would like to see answered is:

Why does GM have so many problems that Toyota does not?

I would like to see this answered for just these 2 companies and I would like to see an answer that includes more than just the shitty end product.
I would like to see someone put numbers in terms of actual percentages of earnings that go where and to whom. I suspect the percent of earnings for GM to legacy costs is comparatively high and that earnings are low (see shitty product above). But I would still like to see hard numbers and apples to apples comparisons of operating models.

[urbanrealtor]

Interesting discussion.

I see some good point put together here.

While some posters, (eg: patientrenter and econprof) frame things in non-analytical and facile ways, they still have good points.

I think that I would like to know more about this before putting forward an opinion. I wish someone would put together a cnn-style explainer on it. The specific question I would like to see answered is:

Why does GM have so many problems that Toyota does not?

I would like to see this answered for just these 2 companies and I would like to see an answer that includes more than just the shitty end product.
I would like to see someone put numbers in terms of actual percentages of earnings that go where and to whom. I suspect the percent of earnings for GM to legacy costs is comparatively high and that earnings are low (see shitty product above). But I would still like to see hard numbers and apples to apples comparisons of operating models.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=luchabee]Urbanrealtor: You missed the point.

The point has never been “real jobs” (like a teacher versus an engineer), but jobs that create other jobs for poor people like me . . . For example, people who start businesses.
[/quote]
Yes your assertion has been that entrepreneurs and business operators and stockholders (“bosses”)are generally rich and/or conservative.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “liberal”. In the sense that these bosses often rely on themselves to take care, I would agree that there is a general preference to avoid non-business payment burdens (like taxes or business fees or association fees). That is by definition true (people who want to make money don’t like giving it away without obvious benefit) but pointing that out is obvious and dumb.
However, in the social dimension, a great number of bosses believe in gay rights, better government health care, environmental issues, and ending the war. The gay rights march I attended today was testament to that. Almost every person I knew there was self-employed. Most of us (I am also self-employed) use w-2 or 1099 contractors or assistants. We are your liberal employers.
[quote=luchabee]
Again, some of hardcore liberals are big fans of regulating and taxing businesses at every opportunity.
[/quote]
There are idiots all over the political spectrum. Again this is obvious and dumb.
[quote=luchabee]
As I mentioned to my brother-in-law, these far left-wing types will never give him a job, never hire people, never pay business taxes, etc., so he might want to think twice about jumping in bed with them politically (unless he can get a nice government job as an accountant).
[/quote]
Liberals and far left are not the same or even similar. Your comparison is akin to comparing William F Buckley (a conservative I respect) to Mussolini(because they are both on the right side of the political spectrum). Liberals focus on social issues and progressive taxation. Far-left focuses on government ownership of the means of production. I am a liberal and I have been to leftist countries. While Cuba has some great things (ice cream, music, dancing, booze, cigars), they really lack free enterprise and free expression in a palpable way.
[quote=luchabee]I know it’s a radical thought. [/quote]
Its not radical. Just ignorant and reactionary.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=luchabee]Urbanrealtor: You missed the point.

The point has never been “real jobs” (like a teacher versus an engineer), but jobs that create other jobs for poor people like me . . . For example, people who start businesses.
[/quote]
Yes your assertion has been that entrepreneurs and business operators and stockholders (“bosses”)are generally rich and/or conservative.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “liberal”. In the sense that these bosses often rely on themselves to take care, I would agree that there is a general preference to avoid non-business payment burdens (like taxes or business fees or association fees). That is by definition true (people who want to make money don’t like giving it away without obvious benefit) but pointing that out is obvious and dumb.
However, in the social dimension, a great number of bosses believe in gay rights, better government health care, environmental issues, and ending the war. The gay rights march I attended today was testament to that. Almost every person I knew there was self-employed. Most of us (I am also self-employed) use w-2 or 1099 contractors or assistants. We are your liberal employers.
[quote=luchabee]
Again, some of hardcore liberals are big fans of regulating and taxing businesses at every opportunity.
[/quote]
There are idiots all over the political spectrum. Again this is obvious and dumb.
[quote=luchabee]
As I mentioned to my brother-in-law, these far left-wing types will never give him a job, never hire people, never pay business taxes, etc., so he might want to think twice about jumping in bed with them politically (unless he can get a nice government job as an accountant).
[/quote]
Liberals and far left are not the same or even similar. Your comparison is akin to comparing William F Buckley (a conservative I respect) to Mussolini(because they are both on the right side of the political spectrum). Liberals focus on social issues and progressive taxation. Far-left focuses on government ownership of the means of production. I am a liberal and I have been to leftist countries. While Cuba has some great things (ice cream, music, dancing, booze, cigars), they really lack free enterprise and free expression in a palpable way.
[quote=luchabee]I know it’s a radical thought. [/quote]
Its not radical. Just ignorant and reactionary.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=luchabee]Urbanrealtor: You missed the point.

The point has never been “real jobs” (like a teacher versus an engineer), but jobs that create other jobs for poor people like me . . . For example, people who start businesses.
[/quote]
Yes your assertion has been that entrepreneurs and business operators and stockholders (“bosses”)are generally rich and/or conservative.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “liberal”. In the sense that these bosses often rely on themselves to take care, I would agree that there is a general preference to avoid non-business payment burdens (like taxes or business fees or association fees). That is by definition true (people who want to make money don’t like giving it away without obvious benefit) but pointing that out is obvious and dumb.
However, in the social dimension, a great number of bosses believe in gay rights, better government health care, environmental issues, and ending the war. The gay rights march I attended today was testament to that. Almost every person I knew there was self-employed. Most of us (I am also self-employed) use w-2 or 1099 contractors or assistants. We are your liberal employers.
[quote=luchabee]
Again, some of hardcore liberals are big fans of regulating and taxing businesses at every opportunity.
[/quote]
There are idiots all over the political spectrum. Again this is obvious and dumb.
[quote=luchabee]
As I mentioned to my brother-in-law, these far left-wing types will never give him a job, never hire people, never pay business taxes, etc., so he might want to think twice about jumping in bed with them politically (unless he can get a nice government job as an accountant).
[/quote]
Liberals and far left are not the same or even similar. Your comparison is akin to comparing William F Buckley (a conservative I respect) to Mussolini(because they are both on the right side of the political spectrum). Liberals focus on social issues and progressive taxation. Far-left focuses on government ownership of the means of production. I am a liberal and I have been to leftist countries. While Cuba has some great things (ice cream, music, dancing, booze, cigars), they really lack free enterprise and free expression in a palpable way.
[quote=luchabee]I know it’s a radical thought. [/quote]
Its not radical. Just ignorant and reactionary.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=luchabee]Urbanrealtor: You missed the point.

The point has never been “real jobs” (like a teacher versus an engineer), but jobs that create other jobs for poor people like me . . . For example, people who start businesses.
[/quote]
Yes your assertion has been that entrepreneurs and business operators and stockholders (“bosses”)are generally rich and/or conservative.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “liberal”. In the sense that these bosses often rely on themselves to take care, I would agree that there is a general preference to avoid non-business payment burdens (like taxes or business fees or association fees). That is by definition true (people who want to make money don’t like giving it away without obvious benefit) but pointing that out is obvious and dumb.
However, in the social dimension, a great number of bosses believe in gay rights, better government health care, environmental issues, and ending the war. The gay rights march I attended today was testament to that. Almost every person I knew there was self-employed. Most of us (I am also self-employed) use w-2 or 1099 contractors or assistants. We are your liberal employers.
[quote=luchabee]
Again, some of hardcore liberals are big fans of regulating and taxing businesses at every opportunity.
[/quote]
There are idiots all over the political spectrum. Again this is obvious and dumb.
[quote=luchabee]
As I mentioned to my brother-in-law, these far left-wing types will never give him a job, never hire people, never pay business taxes, etc., so he might want to think twice about jumping in bed with them politically (unless he can get a nice government job as an accountant).
[/quote]
Liberals and far left are not the same or even similar. Your comparison is akin to comparing William F Buckley (a conservative I respect) to Mussolini(because they are both on the right side of the political spectrum). Liberals focus on social issues and progressive taxation. Far-left focuses on government ownership of the means of production. I am a liberal and I have been to leftist countries. While Cuba has some great things (ice cream, music, dancing, booze, cigars), they really lack free enterprise and free expression in a palpable way.
[quote=luchabee]I know it’s a radical thought. [/quote]
Its not radical. Just ignorant and reactionary.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=luchabee]Urbanrealtor: You missed the point.

The point has never been “real jobs” (like a teacher versus an engineer), but jobs that create other jobs for poor people like me . . . For example, people who start businesses.
[/quote]
Yes your assertion has been that entrepreneurs and business operators and stockholders (“bosses”)are generally rich and/or conservative.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “liberal”. In the sense that these bosses often rely on themselves to take care, I would agree that there is a general preference to avoid non-business payment burdens (like taxes or business fees or association fees). That is by definition true (people who want to make money don’t like giving it away without obvious benefit) but pointing that out is obvious and dumb.
However, in the social dimension, a great number of bosses believe in gay rights, better government health care, environmental issues, and ending the war. The gay rights march I attended today was testament to that. Almost every person I knew there was self-employed. Most of us (I am also self-employed) use w-2 or 1099 contractors or assistants. We are your liberal employers.
[quote=luchabee]
Again, some of hardcore liberals are big fans of regulating and taxing businesses at every opportunity.
[/quote]
There are idiots all over the political spectrum. Again this is obvious and dumb.
[quote=luchabee]
As I mentioned to my brother-in-law, these far left-wing types will never give him a job, never hire people, never pay business taxes, etc., so he might want to think twice about jumping in bed with them politically (unless he can get a nice government job as an accountant).
[/quote]
Liberals and far left are not the same or even similar. Your comparison is akin to comparing William F Buckley (a conservative I respect) to Mussolini(because they are both on the right side of the political spectrum). Liberals focus on social issues and progressive taxation. Far-left focuses on government ownership of the means of production. I am a liberal and I have been to leftist countries. While Cuba has some great things (ice cream, music, dancing, booze, cigars), they really lack free enterprise and free expression in a palpable way.
[quote=luchabee]I know it’s a radical thought. [/quote]
Its not radical. Just ignorant and reactionary.

[urbanrealtor]

I see that now teaching and academia are not real jobs by your measure.

I am not clear how being a lawyer is more productive but clearly we are talking past each other.

If this qualifies as food for thought for you then that explains the posts that are so thin on intelligent discussion.

Please keep feeding that thinking machine of yours luchabee.

[urbanrealtor]

I see that now teaching and academia are not real jobs by your measure.

I am not clear how being a lawyer is more productive but clearly we are talking past each other.

If this qualifies as food for thought for you then that explains the posts that are so thin on intelligent discussion.

Please keep feeding that thinking machine of yours luchabee.

[urbanrealtor]

I see that now teaching and academia are not real jobs by your measure.

I am not clear how being a lawyer is more productive but clearly we are talking past each other.

If this qualifies as food for thought for you then that explains the posts that are so thin on intelligent discussion.

Please keep feeding that thinking machine of yours luchabee.

[urbanrealtor]

I see that now teaching and academia are not real jobs by your measure.

I am not clear how being a lawyer is more productive but clearly we are talking past each other.

If this qualifies as food for thought for you then that explains the posts that are so thin on intelligent discussion.

Please keep feeding that thinking machine of yours luchabee.

[urbanrealtor]

I see that now teaching and academia are not real jobs by your measure.

I am not clear how being a lawyer is more productive but clearly we are talking past each other.

If this qualifies as food for thought for you then that explains the posts that are so thin on intelligent discussion.

Please keep feeding that thinking machine of yours luchabee.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: Agreed on the SF/Bay Area as being a concentration of wealth, but wouldn’t it (geographically speaking) be more correct to point out that the Silicon Valley/Santa Clara County region is really the economic force that drives the area?

I bring that up because Silicon Valley/Sta Clara represent a very interesting mix of liberal and conservative politics, with the epicenter being Stanford University. Stanford, for years now, has wrangled back and forth with the liberal element (the academics) fighting the conservative element (the scientists and researchers) over the programs that Stanford supported which were funded by the defense industry and government.

So it isn’t completely clear cut in the case of the SF/Bay Area, especially when you consider that many of the companies (Intel, Loral/L3, Varian, etc) have been sucking the government teat for decades (going back to the 1950s and 1960s in some cases).[/quote]
You have a point. Lots of those in academia also work as researchers for the defense industry. Foreign policy conservatives living on government subsidies. Similarly, many of those in positions of economic power in NY are right-leaning with regards to regulation and defense. However, I think that as a rule, one could argue that both of these areas have high concentrations of socially liberal thought. As someone who grew up near there (and who is liberal) I find the monothink I encounter in the bay area to be, at times, maddening.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: Agreed on the SF/Bay Area as being a concentration of wealth, but wouldn’t it (geographically speaking) be more correct to point out that the Silicon Valley/Santa Clara County region is really the economic force that drives the area?

I bring that up because Silicon Valley/Sta Clara represent a very interesting mix of liberal and conservative politics, with the epicenter being Stanford University. Stanford, for years now, has wrangled back and forth with the liberal element (the academics) fighting the conservative element (the scientists and researchers) over the programs that Stanford supported which were funded by the defense industry and government.

So it isn’t completely clear cut in the case of the SF/Bay Area, especially when you consider that many of the companies (Intel, Loral/L3, Varian, etc) have been sucking the government teat for decades (going back to the 1950s and 1960s in some cases).[/quote]
You have a point. Lots of those in academia also work as researchers for the defense industry. Foreign policy conservatives living on government subsidies. Similarly, many of those in positions of economic power in NY are right-leaning with regards to regulation and defense. However, I think that as a rule, one could argue that both of these areas have high concentrations of socially liberal thought. As someone who grew up near there (and who is liberal) I find the monothink I encounter in the bay area to be, at times, maddening.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: Agreed on the SF/Bay Area as being a concentration of wealth, but wouldn’t it (geographically speaking) be more correct to point out that the Silicon Valley/Santa Clara County region is really the economic force that drives the area?

I bring that up because Silicon Valley/Sta Clara represent a very interesting mix of liberal and conservative politics, with the epicenter being Stanford University. Stanford, for years now, has wrangled back and forth with the liberal element (the academics) fighting the conservative element (the scientists and researchers) over the programs that Stanford supported which were funded by the defense industry and government.

So it isn’t completely clear cut in the case of the SF/Bay Area, especially when you consider that many of the companies (Intel, Loral/L3, Varian, etc) have been sucking the government teat for decades (going back to the 1950s and 1960s in some cases).[/quote]
You have a point. Lots of those in academia also work as researchers for the defense industry. Foreign policy conservatives living on government subsidies. Similarly, many of those in positions of economic power in NY are right-leaning with regards to regulation and defense. However, I think that as a rule, one could argue that both of these areas have high concentrations of socially liberal thought. As someone who grew up near there (and who is liberal) I find the monothink I encounter in the bay area to be, at times, maddening.

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