[urbanrealtor]

[quote=george]I’m perturbed by the practice of re-listing stale properties on the MLS, and as a buyer I would like to see it banned. The practice is deceptive and reflects badly on realtors in general. The current fiasco has dealt a major blow to the real estate profession’s credibility and prestige. Why continue a practice that reinforces the used car salesman stereotype.

As I understand it, bogus re-listing is done for 3 main reasons:

(1) To make a listing appear fresh, since it harder to sell a stale fish. Clearly this is blatantly deceptive. If a property has been on the market far longer than others in the area there is usually a good reason for it. Hey, why make the realtor go through all the hassle to re-list? Just let them reset the DOM to zero anytime they like.
[/quote]
This practice has been banned for years.
While there are ways to fraudulently defeat the rules (just like any rules) its not exactly easy. Also, reporting violations anonymously is easy for agents to do (I have done it many times). Also, the whole “stale fish” argument is not a good one. Long market times (in my experience) exist because it is a short sale (requiring a lengthy bank approval) or because its listed too damn high.

[quote=george]

(2) To change the price. Again, deceptive since you don’t need to relist to do this.

[/quote]
Correct. Changing a price by itself does not reset the MT (market time) or AMT (active market time).
If an agent shows a new listing he has to have a listing agreement (as well as prior cancellation or expiration) in writing to back it up.

[quote=george]
(3) To get a free parasitic marketing boost by leveraging the various services that alert buyers about new properties.
[/quote]
Or to make the claim that their listings never sit for more than 30 days (or some similar claim).
[quote=george]

Ironically, it probably hurts realtors as a whole. I would think it’s counter-productive for the following reasons:

(1) Damages their credibility.
[/quote]
Yup.
[quote=george]
(2) Encourages their clients to be unrealistic and waste their time.
[/quote]
Often they can do that without encouragement.
[quote=george]
(3) Probably have to pay a fee every time they relist.
[/quote]
Nope.
[quote=george]
(4) Screws their fellow realtor (and seller) down the street that’s being honest.
[/quote]
If it were allowed (which it isn’t) it would considered fair game. But since its not, your point is fair.
[quote=george]
(5) Wastes the timer of realtors (and buyers) who monitor new listings.

I’m told that there are MLS jurisdictions that actually do prohibit the practice. Unless I’m missing something here, I think re-listing should only be allowed if the seller has changed their agent or the listing has been off the MLS for at least three weeks. [/quote]
Its 30 days in our jurisdiction.
If you cancel a listing and re-list it with the same agent in the same office within 30 days of the cancellation, you need special variance permission (at least last I checked). The variance desk would notice if this happened a lot.

[quote=george]Until the current rules change, make sure to ask your realtor for the full listing history of the property. Better yet, wait to see if they volunteer the information. If they don’t they are probably crooked or inexperienced.
[/quote]
Listing history is not generally the most relevant aspect when establishing whether or not a property is a good deal. If a deal is a good one, the listing history of a given property may never come up. EG: I closed on that had been on the market for like a year. The seller wanted unrealistic numbers for it. The current listing (the one active when we went into escrow) was with a better agent and at a lower price. The listing history came up but it was not a major component. My buyers did not consider it relevant that it was for sale at a higher price a year ago.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=george]I’m perturbed by the practice of re-listing stale properties on the MLS, and as a buyer I would like to see it banned. The practice is deceptive and reflects badly on realtors in general. The current fiasco has dealt a major blow to the real estate profession’s credibility and prestige. Why continue a practice that reinforces the used car salesman stereotype.

As I understand it, bogus re-listing is done for 3 main reasons:

(1) To make a listing appear fresh, since it harder to sell a stale fish. Clearly this is blatantly deceptive. If a property has been on the market far longer than others in the area there is usually a good reason for it. Hey, why make the realtor go through all the hassle to re-list? Just let them reset the DOM to zero anytime they like.
[/quote]
This practice has been banned for years.
While there are ways to fraudulently defeat the rules (just like any rules) its not exactly easy. Also, reporting violations anonymously is easy for agents to do (I have done it many times). Also, the whole “stale fish” argument is not a good one. Long market times (in my experience) exist because it is a short sale (requiring a lengthy bank approval) or because its listed too damn high.

[quote=george]

(2) To change the price. Again, deceptive since you don’t need to relist to do this.

[/quote]
Correct. Changing a price by itself does not reset the MT (market time) or AMT (active market time).
If an agent shows a new listing he has to have a listing agreement (as well as prior cancellation or expiration) in writing to back it up.

[quote=george]
(3) To get a free parasitic marketing boost by leveraging the various services that alert buyers about new properties.
[/quote]
Or to make the claim that their listings never sit for more than 30 days (or some similar claim).
[quote=george]

Ironically, it probably hurts realtors as a whole. I would think it’s counter-productive for the following reasons:

(1) Damages their credibility.
[/quote]
Yup.
[quote=george]
(2) Encourages their clients to be unrealistic and waste their time.
[/quote]
Often they can do that without encouragement.
[quote=george]
(3) Probably have to pay a fee every time they relist.
[/quote]
Nope.
[quote=george]
(4) Screws their fellow realtor (and seller) down the street that’s being honest.
[/quote]
If it were allowed (which it isn’t) it would considered fair game. But since its not, your point is fair.
[quote=george]
(5) Wastes the timer of realtors (and buyers) who monitor new listings.

I’m told that there are MLS jurisdictions that actually do prohibit the practice. Unless I’m missing something here, I think re-listing should only be allowed if the seller has changed their agent or the listing has been off the MLS for at least three weeks. [/quote]
Its 30 days in our jurisdiction.
If you cancel a listing and re-list it with the same agent in the same office within 30 days of the cancellation, you need special variance permission (at least last I checked). The variance desk would notice if this happened a lot.

[quote=george]Until the current rules change, make sure to ask your realtor for the full listing history of the property. Better yet, wait to see if they volunteer the information. If they don’t they are probably crooked or inexperienced.
[/quote]
Listing history is not generally the most relevant aspect when establishing whether or not a property is a good deal. If a deal is a good one, the listing history of a given property may never come up. EG: I closed on that had been on the market for like a year. The seller wanted unrealistic numbers for it. The current listing (the one active when we went into escrow) was with a better agent and at a lower price. The listing history came up but it was not a major component. My buyers did not consider it relevant that it was for sale at a higher price a year ago.

[urbanrealtor]

While it is true that some areas have few enough houses or unique enough designs that direct comps do not exist, the idea that there is no real discernible market value (which is the implication of your post) does not hold water.

Often one has to use other properties that do not match exactly. For example there might be another sale that was similar but had a much larger lot. Using other properties in the area can tell you how much a lot offsets value. This is not magic. Its how appraisers do it. They are generally better at it (though not always) but an agent should be able to give you some idea of value through other sales and offset values of features.

I don’t know the whole situation here (your post was somewhat vague) but I would really reconsider the agent’s value as a professional if they are not giving you some idea of the market value.

Maybe you need a better agent. In this case “better” might mean more experienced, smarter, or just somewhat more familiar with this area.

Maybe you need to ask better questions. It might be that direct comps are non-existent and you don’t care for your agents suggestion of market value. Again not clear from your post.

Additionally, can you explain the relevance of foreclosure sale prices? Who owns the property (eg: Joe Schmoe or Bank of America) has a somewhat limited effect on market value.

[urbanrealtor]

While it is true that some areas have few enough houses or unique enough designs that direct comps do not exist, the idea that there is no real discernible market value (which is the implication of your post) does not hold water.

Often one has to use other properties that do not match exactly. For example there might be another sale that was similar but had a much larger lot. Using other properties in the area can tell you how much a lot offsets value. This is not magic. Its how appraisers do it. They are generally better at it (though not always) but an agent should be able to give you some idea of value through other sales and offset values of features.

I don’t know the whole situation here (your post was somewhat vague) but I would really reconsider the agent’s value as a professional if they are not giving you some idea of the market value.

Maybe you need a better agent. In this case “better” might mean more experienced, smarter, or just somewhat more familiar with this area.

Maybe you need to ask better questions. It might be that direct comps are non-existent and you don’t care for your agents suggestion of market value. Again not clear from your post.

Additionally, can you explain the relevance of foreclosure sale prices? Who owns the property (eg: Joe Schmoe or Bank of America) has a somewhat limited effect on market value.

[urbanrealtor]

While it is true that some areas have few enough houses or unique enough designs that direct comps do not exist, the idea that there is no real discernible market value (which is the implication of your post) does not hold water.

Often one has to use other properties that do not match exactly. For example there might be another sale that was similar but had a much larger lot. Using other properties in the area can tell you how much a lot offsets value. This is not magic. Its how appraisers do it. They are generally better at it (though not always) but an agent should be able to give you some idea of value through other sales and offset values of features.

I don’t know the whole situation here (your post was somewhat vague) but I would really reconsider the agent’s value as a professional if they are not giving you some idea of the market value.

Maybe you need a better agent. In this case “better” might mean more experienced, smarter, or just somewhat more familiar with this area.

Maybe you need to ask better questions. It might be that direct comps are non-existent and you don’t care for your agents suggestion of market value. Again not clear from your post.

Additionally, can you explain the relevance of foreclosure sale prices? Who owns the property (eg: Joe Schmoe or Bank of America) has a somewhat limited effect on market value.

[urbanrealtor]

While it is true that some areas have few enough houses or unique enough designs that direct comps do not exist, the idea that there is no real discernible market value (which is the implication of your post) does not hold water.

Often one has to use other properties that do not match exactly. For example there might be another sale that was similar but had a much larger lot. Using other properties in the area can tell you how much a lot offsets value. This is not magic. Its how appraisers do it. They are generally better at it (though not always) but an agent should be able to give you some idea of value through other sales and offset values of features.

I don’t know the whole situation here (your post was somewhat vague) but I would really reconsider the agent’s value as a professional if they are not giving you some idea of the market value.

Maybe you need a better agent. In this case “better” might mean more experienced, smarter, or just somewhat more familiar with this area.

Maybe you need to ask better questions. It might be that direct comps are non-existent and you don’t care for your agents suggestion of market value. Again not clear from your post.

Additionally, can you explain the relevance of foreclosure sale prices? Who owns the property (eg: Joe Schmoe or Bank of America) has a somewhat limited effect on market value.

[urbanrealtor]

While it is true that some areas have few enough houses or unique enough designs that direct comps do not exist, the idea that there is no real discernible market value (which is the implication of your post) does not hold water.

Often one has to use other properties that do not match exactly. For example there might be another sale that was similar but had a much larger lot. Using other properties in the area can tell you how much a lot offsets value. This is not magic. Its how appraisers do it. They are generally better at it (though not always) but an agent should be able to give you some idea of value through other sales and offset values of features.

I don’t know the whole situation here (your post was somewhat vague) but I would really reconsider the agent’s value as a professional if they are not giving you some idea of the market value.

Maybe you need a better agent. In this case “better” might mean more experienced, smarter, or just somewhat more familiar with this area.

Maybe you need to ask better questions. It might be that direct comps are non-existent and you don’t care for your agents suggestion of market value. Again not clear from your post.

Additionally, can you explain the relevance of foreclosure sale prices? Who owns the property (eg: Joe Schmoe or Bank of America) has a somewhat limited effect on market value.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=fredo4]

for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.nymtour.com/toolbox/jf/TV/whitehouse.html%5B/quote%5D

Thanks dude.
I only wish I could unwatch that.

My corneas burn.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=fredo4]

for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.nymtour.com/toolbox/jf/TV/whitehouse.html%5B/quote%5D

Thanks dude.
I only wish I could unwatch that.

My corneas burn.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=fredo4]

for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.nymtour.com/toolbox/jf/TV/whitehouse.html%5B/quote%5D

Thanks dude.
I only wish I could unwatch that.

My corneas burn.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=fredo4]

for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.nymtour.com/toolbox/jf/TV/whitehouse.html%5B/quote%5D

Thanks dude.
I only wish I could unwatch that.

My corneas burn.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=fredo4]

for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.nymtour.com/toolbox/jf/TV/whitehouse.html%5B/quote%5D

Thanks dude.
I only wish I could unwatch that.

My corneas burn.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=recordsclerk]I would not buy any condo conv. for more then 50% off peak prices. If these are, the MP condos that started selling in 2005 there will be more dramatic price drops. I would not consider these new condos in anyway. They may have new plumbing/electrical in the walls, new kitchen, new baths, paint, interior drywall. They still have the inconvenient parking, dated exterior, and apartment feel. Anything in the 300’s should have an attached garage and more updated floor plan. There are 2 bed/2 bath condos within a few blocks going for under $200K. Condo prices are starting to tank everywhere and soon enough these condos will be affected by these price drops. The Allure condos in Serra Mesa were selling about the same time and are starting to see price drops of %50+ already. Condo converts sold between 2003-2007 will have large numbers of foreclosures bringing down the prices. Once the price drops to about
%30 off peak, it just accelerating the rate of decline. People will just start walking away. Watch out for HOA issues once this starts happening. As soon as the builder sells off remaining inventory, the HOA usually goes to hell and the place starts to deteriorate. Take advantage of the price drops; do not get taken before the price drops.[/quote]

The problem with using this as a strategy is that it uses the peak housing boom prices as a reference point. Waiting till things fall (x)% from peak is not a well thought out plan. I have seen projects where the magic number was 30% (because of location or some desirable aspect) and I am just about to close escrow on one for 60% off of peak (and I still think its high).

However with regard to the HOA, recordsclerk makes a really good point. The fiscal health of the HOA needs to be reviewed by the buyer. This is a good situation for employing a competent buyer agent or an attorney or someone who can really help make sense of this for you. When you look at the package the seller gives you it is really important to know what governing documents you are agreeing to and whether they have a functioning budget built in.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=recordsclerk]I would not buy any condo conv. for more then 50% off peak prices. If these are, the MP condos that started selling in 2005 there will be more dramatic price drops. I would not consider these new condos in anyway. They may have new plumbing/electrical in the walls, new kitchen, new baths, paint, interior drywall. They still have the inconvenient parking, dated exterior, and apartment feel. Anything in the 300’s should have an attached garage and more updated floor plan. There are 2 bed/2 bath condos within a few blocks going for under $200K. Condo prices are starting to tank everywhere and soon enough these condos will be affected by these price drops. The Allure condos in Serra Mesa were selling about the same time and are starting to see price drops of %50+ already. Condo converts sold between 2003-2007 will have large numbers of foreclosures bringing down the prices. Once the price drops to about
%30 off peak, it just accelerating the rate of decline. People will just start walking away. Watch out for HOA issues once this starts happening. As soon as the builder sells off remaining inventory, the HOA usually goes to hell and the place starts to deteriorate. Take advantage of the price drops; do not get taken before the price drops.[/quote]

The problem with using this as a strategy is that it uses the peak housing boom prices as a reference point. Waiting till things fall (x)% from peak is not a well thought out plan. I have seen projects where the magic number was 30% (because of location or some desirable aspect) and I am just about to close escrow on one for 60% off of peak (and I still think its high).

However with regard to the HOA, recordsclerk makes a really good point. The fiscal health of the HOA needs to be reviewed by the buyer. This is a good situation for employing a competent buyer agent or an attorney or someone who can really help make sense of this for you. When you look at the package the seller gives you it is really important to know what governing documents you are agreeing to and whether they have a functioning budget built in.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=recordsclerk]I would not buy any condo conv. for more then 50% off peak prices. If these are, the MP condos that started selling in 2005 there will be more dramatic price drops. I would not consider these new condos in anyway. They may have new plumbing/electrical in the walls, new kitchen, new baths, paint, interior drywall. They still have the inconvenient parking, dated exterior, and apartment feel. Anything in the 300’s should have an attached garage and more updated floor plan. There are 2 bed/2 bath condos within a few blocks going for under $200K. Condo prices are starting to tank everywhere and soon enough these condos will be affected by these price drops. The Allure condos in Serra Mesa were selling about the same time and are starting to see price drops of %50+ already. Condo converts sold between 2003-2007 will have large numbers of foreclosures bringing down the prices. Once the price drops to about
%30 off peak, it just accelerating the rate of decline. People will just start walking away. Watch out for HOA issues once this starts happening. As soon as the builder sells off remaining inventory, the HOA usually goes to hell and the place starts to deteriorate. Take advantage of the price drops; do not get taken before the price drops.[/quote]

The problem with using this as a strategy is that it uses the peak housing boom prices as a reference point. Waiting till things fall (x)% from peak is not a well thought out plan. I have seen projects where the magic number was 30% (because of location or some desirable aspect) and I am just about to close escrow on one for 60% off of peak (and I still think its high).

However with regard to the HOA, recordsclerk makes a really good point. The fiscal health of the HOA needs to be reviewed by the buyer. This is a good situation for employing a competent buyer agent or an attorney or someone who can really help make sense of this for you. When you look at the package the seller gives you it is really important to know what governing documents you are agreeing to and whether they have a functioning budget built in.

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