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surveyor
Participant[quote=briansd1]
surveyor, so remind me again who lost Vietnam? And as you said, who did Bin Laden learn the lesson from? Either Nixon or Ford (both Republicans) by my estimation.[/quote]Let me spell it out for you because frequently I see you having difficulty grasping certain concepts.
As Allan has pointed out many times, the U.S. never lost a military battle. However, many countries and internationalists perceived the U.S. to have lost Vietnam because of the way we left. While there was no doubt of our military prowess, the lesson for many countries was that the U.S. could be beaten.
Enter Somalia. As bin Laden said, hit the nose of the tiger and the tiger runs away. Despite having a vastly superior military, in terms of numbers, equipment, training, and in almost every other way, a much publicized attack and the U.S. runs away. Clinton withdraws all the troops. There are also the attacks on the African embassies. Not much of a response. The bombing of the Cole. “Police action.” All of this behavior points to a country unwilling to take the steps to aggressively defend itself. bin Laden then gets the idea that if he can strike the U.S. deep in its heart, it will eventually withdraw from the middle east and Israel.
Now, do you think bin Laden would have come to this conclusion if we had done a better job at Vietnam? Perhaps, perhaps not.
And let me be clear (using Obama’s favorite words): bin Laden does not see republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives. He just sees filthy infidels. So you can try to blame Vietnam or other ills on the republicans, or conservatives, but that line of thinking makes no difference to bin Laden.
At least with your questions you seem willing to learn. However, willing to learn and learning are two different things.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
surveyor, so remind me again who lost Vietnam? And as you said, who did Bin Laden learn the lesson from? Either Nixon or Ford (both Republicans) by my estimation.[/quote]Let me spell it out for you because frequently I see you having difficulty grasping certain concepts.
As Allan has pointed out many times, the U.S. never lost a military battle. However, many countries and internationalists perceived the U.S. to have lost Vietnam because of the way we left. While there was no doubt of our military prowess, the lesson for many countries was that the U.S. could be beaten.
Enter Somalia. As bin Laden said, hit the nose of the tiger and the tiger runs away. Despite having a vastly superior military, in terms of numbers, equipment, training, and in almost every other way, a much publicized attack and the U.S. runs away. Clinton withdraws all the troops. There are also the attacks on the African embassies. Not much of a response. The bombing of the Cole. “Police action.” All of this behavior points to a country unwilling to take the steps to aggressively defend itself. bin Laden then gets the idea that if he can strike the U.S. deep in its heart, it will eventually withdraw from the middle east and Israel.
Now, do you think bin Laden would have come to this conclusion if we had done a better job at Vietnam? Perhaps, perhaps not.
And let me be clear (using Obama’s favorite words): bin Laden does not see republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives. He just sees filthy infidels. So you can try to blame Vietnam or other ills on the republicans, or conservatives, but that line of thinking makes no difference to bin Laden.
At least with your questions you seem willing to learn. However, willing to learn and learning are two different things.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
surveyor, so remind me again who lost Vietnam? And as you said, who did Bin Laden learn the lesson from? Either Nixon or Ford (both Republicans) by my estimation.[/quote]Let me spell it out for you because frequently I see you having difficulty grasping certain concepts.
As Allan has pointed out many times, the U.S. never lost a military battle. However, many countries and internationalists perceived the U.S. to have lost Vietnam because of the way we left. While there was no doubt of our military prowess, the lesson for many countries was that the U.S. could be beaten.
Enter Somalia. As bin Laden said, hit the nose of the tiger and the tiger runs away. Despite having a vastly superior military, in terms of numbers, equipment, training, and in almost every other way, a much publicized attack and the U.S. runs away. Clinton withdraws all the troops. There are also the attacks on the African embassies. Not much of a response. The bombing of the Cole. “Police action.” All of this behavior points to a country unwilling to take the steps to aggressively defend itself. bin Laden then gets the idea that if he can strike the U.S. deep in its heart, it will eventually withdraw from the middle east and Israel.
Now, do you think bin Laden would have come to this conclusion if we had done a better job at Vietnam? Perhaps, perhaps not.
And let me be clear (using Obama’s favorite words): bin Laden does not see republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives. He just sees filthy infidels. So you can try to blame Vietnam or other ills on the republicans, or conservatives, but that line of thinking makes no difference to bin Laden.
At least with your questions you seem willing to learn. However, willing to learn and learning are two different things.
Participant[quote=Arraya]
Haha…. No it sounded SOOO stupid. At least in the respect that we would let it drive our foreign policy. But alas we were baited into an un-winnable war because the child president and his band of merry henchmen didn’t want to get called pussies. Boy did we show them.There will be cheering in the streets of Islamabad when we leave because we can’t fund the war anymore. The right will howl in righteous indignation and the 2012 campaign slogan for the GOP will be “blame the black guy”.
We’re fucking nuts.[/quote]
And yet the quote was true, wasn’t it? It sounded stupid to you, but it turned out to be true. Another right-wing myth disproven, eh?
But here’s the thing – bin laden had to kill almost 3000 of us on our own soil before we had to take the problem seriously. Does that sound like we got “baited” into a war?
Here’s the thing – Obama wanted the job. If he can’t do the job then he will be replaced. Simple as that. It has nothing to do whether he started it. He wanted the job he said he could do it and he better do it. Otherwise yes the blame falls on him. That’s how it works.
“The buck stops here.” – Harry Truman
Participant[quote=Arraya]
Haha…. No it sounded SOOO stupid. At least in the respect that we would let it drive our foreign policy. But alas we were baited into an un-winnable war because the child president and his band of merry henchmen didn’t want to get called pussies. Boy did we show them.There will be cheering in the streets of Islamabad when we leave because we can’t fund the war anymore. The right will howl in righteous indignation and the 2012 campaign slogan for the GOP will be “blame the black guy”.
We’re fucking nuts.[/quote]
And yet the quote was true, wasn’t it? It sounded stupid to you, but it turned out to be true. Another right-wing myth disproven, eh?
But here’s the thing – bin laden had to kill almost 3000 of us on our own soil before we had to take the problem seriously. Does that sound like we got “baited” into a war?
Here’s the thing – Obama wanted the job. If he can’t do the job then he will be replaced. Simple as that. It has nothing to do whether he started it. He wanted the job he said he could do it and he better do it. Otherwise yes the blame falls on him. That’s how it works.
“The buck stops here.” – Harry Truman
Participant[quote=Arraya]
Haha…. No it sounded SOOO stupid. At least in the respect that we would let it drive our foreign policy. But alas we were baited into an un-winnable war because the child president and his band of merry henchmen didn’t want to get called pussies. Boy did we show them.There will be cheering in the streets of Islamabad when we leave because we can’t fund the war anymore. The right will howl in righteous indignation and the 2012 campaign slogan for the GOP will be “blame the black guy”.
We’re fucking nuts.[/quote]
And yet the quote was true, wasn’t it? It sounded stupid to you, but it turned out to be true. Another right-wing myth disproven, eh?
But here’s the thing – bin laden had to kill almost 3000 of us on our own soil before we had to take the problem seriously. Does that sound like we got “baited” into a war?
Here’s the thing – Obama wanted the job. If he can’t do the job then he will be replaced. Simple as that. It has nothing to do whether he started it. He wanted the job he said he could do it and he better do it. Otherwise yes the blame falls on him. That’s how it works.
“The buck stops here.” – Harry Truman
Participant[quote=Arraya]
Haha…. No it sounded SOOO stupid. At least in the respect that we would let it drive our foreign policy. But alas we were baited into an un-winnable war because the child president and his band of merry henchmen didn’t want to get called pussies. Boy did we show them.There will be cheering in the streets of Islamabad when we leave because we can’t fund the war anymore. The right will howl in righteous indignation and the 2012 campaign slogan for the GOP will be “blame the black guy”.
We’re fucking nuts.[/quote]
And yet the quote was true, wasn’t it? It sounded stupid to you, but it turned out to be true. Another right-wing myth disproven, eh?
But here’s the thing – bin laden had to kill almost 3000 of us on our own soil before we had to take the problem seriously. Does that sound like we got “baited” into a war?
Here’s the thing – Obama wanted the job. If he can’t do the job then he will be replaced. Simple as that. It has nothing to do whether he started it. He wanted the job he said he could do it and he better do it. Otherwise yes the blame falls on him. That’s how it works.
“The buck stops here.” – Harry Truman
Participant[quote=Arraya]
Haha…. No it sounded SOOO stupid. At least in the respect that we would let it drive our foreign policy. But alas we were baited into an un-winnable war because the child president and his band of merry henchmen didn’t want to get called pussies. Boy did we show them.There will be cheering in the streets of Islamabad when we leave because we can’t fund the war anymore. The right will howl in righteous indignation and the 2012 campaign slogan for the GOP will be “blame the black guy”.
We’re fucking nuts.[/quote]
And yet the quote was true, wasn’t it? It sounded stupid to you, but it turned out to be true. Another right-wing myth disproven, eh?
But here’s the thing – bin laden had to kill almost 3000 of us on our own soil before we had to take the problem seriously. Does that sound like we got “baited” into a war?
Here’s the thing – Obama wanted the job. If he can’t do the job then he will be replaced. Simple as that. It has nothing to do whether he started it. He wanted the job he said he could do it and he better do it. Otherwise yes the blame falls on him. That’s how it works.
“The buck stops here.” – Harry Truman
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=surveyor][quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.[/quote]
Do you have a link for that quote because it sounds like a right-wing myth. Here is the only OBL vietnam quote I could find.
[/quote]So just because it contradicts your world view you think it’s a right-wing myth?
Sorry that the facts get in the way. Even from your quote it was obvious that bin Ladin studied history. He may have a sick view of it, but he did study it.
From an interview in 1998:
http://www.meforum.org/435/usama-bin-ladin-american-soldiers-are-paper-tigers
“Bin Ladin: After God honored us with victory in Afghanistan, and justice prevailed against those who slaughtered millions of Muslims in the Muslim republics, Muslim minds no longer believed in the myth of superpowers. The youth no longer saw America as a superpower.After leaving Afghanistan they headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle, thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. They were surprised when the Americans entered with 300,000 troops, and collected other troops from around the world-5,000 from Pakistan, 5,000 from India, 5,000 from Bangladesh, 5,000 from Egypt, Senegal, and others like Saudi Arabia. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized more than before that the America soldiers are paper tigers. After a few blows, the Americans ran away in defeat.
After a few blows, they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat, and stopped using such titles. They learned in America that this name [i.e., God] is larger than them.
When this great defeat took place I was in Sudan, and it pleased me very much, just as it pleases all Muslims. God willing, the next victory will be in Hijaz and Najd, [provinces of] Saudi Arabia, and it will cause Americans to forget the horrors of Vietnam and Beirut.”
So realize whatever you feel about how the war started and who started it, there will be huge repercussions based on how it is resolved. If the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and Iraq in shame, then the muslim world will have won a tremendous victory against the great satan. This will result in a huge rallying cry that will increase alQaeda’s popularity and recruitment drive. It will increase attacks against the U.S. and all its allies, esp. Israel.
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=surveyor][quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.[/quote]
Do you have a link for that quote because it sounds like a right-wing myth. Here is the only OBL vietnam quote I could find.
[/quote]So just because it contradicts your world view you think it’s a right-wing myth?
Sorry that the facts get in the way. Even from your quote it was obvious that bin Ladin studied history. He may have a sick view of it, but he did study it.
From an interview in 1998:
http://www.meforum.org/435/usama-bin-ladin-american-soldiers-are-paper-tigers
“Bin Ladin: After God honored us with victory in Afghanistan, and justice prevailed against those who slaughtered millions of Muslims in the Muslim republics, Muslim minds no longer believed in the myth of superpowers. The youth no longer saw America as a superpower.After leaving Afghanistan they headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle, thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. They were surprised when the Americans entered with 300,000 troops, and collected other troops from around the world-5,000 from Pakistan, 5,000 from India, 5,000 from Bangladesh, 5,000 from Egypt, Senegal, and others like Saudi Arabia. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized more than before that the America soldiers are paper tigers. After a few blows, the Americans ran away in defeat.
After a few blows, they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat, and stopped using such titles. They learned in America that this name [i.e., God] is larger than them.
When this great defeat took place I was in Sudan, and it pleased me very much, just as it pleases all Muslims. God willing, the next victory will be in Hijaz and Najd, [provinces of] Saudi Arabia, and it will cause Americans to forget the horrors of Vietnam and Beirut.”
So realize whatever you feel about how the war started and who started it, there will be huge repercussions based on how it is resolved. If the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and Iraq in shame, then the muslim world will have won a tremendous victory against the great satan. This will result in a huge rallying cry that will increase alQaeda’s popularity and recruitment drive. It will increase attacks against the U.S. and all its allies, esp. Israel.
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=surveyor][quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.[/quote]
Do you have a link for that quote because it sounds like a right-wing myth. Here is the only OBL vietnam quote I could find.
[/quote]So just because it contradicts your world view you think it’s a right-wing myth?
Sorry that the facts get in the way. Even from your quote it was obvious that bin Ladin studied history. He may have a sick view of it, but he did study it.
From an interview in 1998:
http://www.meforum.org/435/usama-bin-ladin-american-soldiers-are-paper-tigers
“Bin Ladin: After God honored us with victory in Afghanistan, and justice prevailed against those who slaughtered millions of Muslims in the Muslim republics, Muslim minds no longer believed in the myth of superpowers. The youth no longer saw America as a superpower.After leaving Afghanistan they headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle, thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. They were surprised when the Americans entered with 300,000 troops, and collected other troops from around the world-5,000 from Pakistan, 5,000 from India, 5,000 from Bangladesh, 5,000 from Egypt, Senegal, and others like Saudi Arabia. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized more than before that the America soldiers are paper tigers. After a few blows, the Americans ran away in defeat.
After a few blows, they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat, and stopped using such titles. They learned in America that this name [i.e., God] is larger than them.
When this great defeat took place I was in Sudan, and it pleased me very much, just as it pleases all Muslims. God willing, the next victory will be in Hijaz and Najd, [provinces of] Saudi Arabia, and it will cause Americans to forget the horrors of Vietnam and Beirut.”
So realize whatever you feel about how the war started and who started it, there will be huge repercussions based on how it is resolved. If the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and Iraq in shame, then the muslim world will have won a tremendous victory against the great satan. This will result in a huge rallying cry that will increase alQaeda’s popularity and recruitment drive. It will increase attacks against the U.S. and all its allies, esp. Israel.
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=surveyor][quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.[/quote]
Do you have a link for that quote because it sounds like a right-wing myth. Here is the only OBL vietnam quote I could find.
[/quote]So just because it contradicts your world view you think it’s a right-wing myth?
Sorry that the facts get in the way. Even from your quote it was obvious that bin Ladin studied history. He may have a sick view of it, but he did study it.
From an interview in 1998:
http://www.meforum.org/435/usama-bin-ladin-american-soldiers-are-paper-tigers
“Bin Ladin: After God honored us with victory in Afghanistan, and justice prevailed against those who slaughtered millions of Muslims in the Muslim republics, Muslim minds no longer believed in the myth of superpowers. The youth no longer saw America as a superpower.After leaving Afghanistan they headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle, thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. They were surprised when the Americans entered with 300,000 troops, and collected other troops from around the world-5,000 from Pakistan, 5,000 from India, 5,000 from Bangladesh, 5,000 from Egypt, Senegal, and others like Saudi Arabia. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized more than before that the America soldiers are paper tigers. After a few blows, the Americans ran away in defeat.
After a few blows, they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat, and stopped using such titles. They learned in America that this name [i.e., God] is larger than them.
When this great defeat took place I was in Sudan, and it pleased me very much, just as it pleases all Muslims. God willing, the next victory will be in Hijaz and Najd, [provinces of] Saudi Arabia, and it will cause Americans to forget the horrors of Vietnam and Beirut.”
So realize whatever you feel about how the war started and who started it, there will be huge repercussions based on how it is resolved. If the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and Iraq in shame, then the muslim world will have won a tremendous victory against the great satan. This will result in a huge rallying cry that will increase alQaeda’s popularity and recruitment drive. It will increase attacks against the U.S. and all its allies, esp. Israel.
Participant[quote=Arraya][quote=surveyor][quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.[/quote]
Do you have a link for that quote because it sounds like a right-wing myth. Here is the only OBL vietnam quote I could find.
[/quote]So just because it contradicts your world view you think it’s a right-wing myth?
Sorry that the facts get in the way. Even from your quote it was obvious that bin Ladin studied history. He may have a sick view of it, but he did study it.
From an interview in 1998:
http://www.meforum.org/435/usama-bin-ladin-american-soldiers-are-paper-tigers
“Bin Ladin: After God honored us with victory in Afghanistan, and justice prevailed against those who slaughtered millions of Muslims in the Muslim republics, Muslim minds no longer believed in the myth of superpowers. The youth no longer saw America as a superpower.After leaving Afghanistan they headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle, thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. They were surprised when the Americans entered with 300,000 troops, and collected other troops from around the world-5,000 from Pakistan, 5,000 from India, 5,000 from Bangladesh, 5,000 from Egypt, Senegal, and others like Saudi Arabia. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized more than before that the America soldiers are paper tigers. After a few blows, the Americans ran away in defeat.
After a few blows, they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat, and stopped using such titles. They learned in America that this name [i.e., God] is larger than them.
When this great defeat took place I was in Sudan, and it pleased me very much, just as it pleases all Muslims. God willing, the next victory will be in Hijaz and Najd, [provinces of] Saudi Arabia, and it will cause Americans to forget the horrors of Vietnam and Beirut.”
So realize whatever you feel about how the war started and who started it, there will be huge repercussions based on how it is resolved. If the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and Iraq in shame, then the muslim world will have won a tremendous victory against the great satan. This will result in a huge rallying cry that will increase alQaeda’s popularity and recruitment drive. It will increase attacks against the U.S. and all its allies, esp. Israel.
Participant[quote=Arraya]If we “won” Vietnam, would anything be different? What would we have won, bragging rights?[/quote]
Bin Ladin said specifically that when he studied American history, that he concluded that America was a paper tiger, that if you bloody its nose, it would run away.
He got that lesson from Vietnam.
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