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surveyor
Participant[quote=Arraya]
LOL… Ok, dude, your really reaching now.Quotes from the Talmud
B17470 / Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:41:21 / Human Rights
Sanhedrin 59a: “Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal.”
Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.”
Sanhedrin 59a: “A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death.”
Libbre David 37: “To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.”
Libbre David 37: “If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death.”
Yebhamoth 11b: “Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age.”
Schabouth Hag. 6d: “Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Do not save Goyim in danger of death.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Show no mercy to the Goyim.”[/quote]I think you’re the one who’s reaching… None of these really compare to the Koran’s verses of violence.
Compare with these verses:
Qur’an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
Qur’an (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
If you read closely, there are significant differences to the things you wrote. Are your Talmud quotes being used as justification for violence? Do the religious authorities acknowledge and agree with the calls to violence? And what have the religious authorities ruled to these verses? Were they abrogated? Are they considered to be the law of the land in Israel?
That is the difference.
1. The Koran teaches violence.
2. Religious scholars have agreed with these violent verses and continue to teach them today.
3. Violence being committed today.While there are violent verses in the Talmud and the Bible, they are not universal calls to violence and there are no established religious scholars calling for such violence. Not so with the Koran.
Participant[quote=Arraya]
LOL… Ok, dude, your really reaching now.Quotes from the Talmud
B17470 / Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:41:21 / Human Rights
Sanhedrin 59a: “Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal.”
Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.”
Sanhedrin 59a: “A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death.”
Libbre David 37: “To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.”
Libbre David 37: “If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death.”
Yebhamoth 11b: “Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age.”
Schabouth Hag. 6d: “Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Do not save Goyim in danger of death.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Show no mercy to the Goyim.”[/quote]I think you’re the one who’s reaching… None of these really compare to the Koran’s verses of violence.
Compare with these verses:
Qur’an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
Qur’an (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
If you read closely, there are significant differences to the things you wrote. Are your Talmud quotes being used as justification for violence? Do the religious authorities acknowledge and agree with the calls to violence? And what have the religious authorities ruled to these verses? Were they abrogated? Are they considered to be the law of the land in Israel?
That is the difference.
1. The Koran teaches violence.
2. Religious scholars have agreed with these violent verses and continue to teach them today.
3. Violence being committed today.While there are violent verses in the Talmud and the Bible, they are not universal calls to violence and there are no established religious scholars calling for such violence. Not so with the Koran.
Participant[quote=Arraya]
LOL… Ok, dude, your really reaching now.Quotes from the Talmud
B17470 / Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:41:21 / Human Rights
Sanhedrin 59a: “Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal.”
Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.”
Sanhedrin 59a: “A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death.”
Libbre David 37: “To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.”
Libbre David 37: “If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death.”
Yebhamoth 11b: “Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age.”
Schabouth Hag. 6d: “Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Do not save Goyim in danger of death.”
Hilkkoth Akum X1: “Show no mercy to the Goyim.”[/quote]I think you’re the one who’s reaching… None of these really compare to the Koran’s verses of violence.
Compare with these verses:
Qur’an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
Qur’an (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
If you read closely, there are significant differences to the things you wrote. Are your Talmud quotes being used as justification for violence? Do the religious authorities acknowledge and agree with the calls to violence? And what have the religious authorities ruled to these verses? Were they abrogated? Are they considered to be the law of the land in Israel?
That is the difference.
1. The Koran teaches violence.
2. Religious scholars have agreed with these violent verses and continue to teach them today.
3. Violence being committed today.While there are violent verses in the Talmud and the Bible, they are not universal calls to violence and there are no established religious scholars calling for such violence. Not so with the Koran.
Participantfundies
That’s quite a lot of stuff there Arraya but all it does is say that jews have a claim on that land. We all knew that. And a movement to reclaim the land. Oh big whoops. And people who believe in prophecy and want to make it happen. Big whoops.
But where is the specific violent scripture that says “Kill the gentiles now and forever?”. There’s a difference between “God says this land is yours” and “God says kill them.”
Because I’m still waiting for that. And that is the fundamental difference between your position and mine. Jihadists say that their god wants them to kill people. What do jewish settlers want – they want their land back. Do you see the difference?
Participantfundies
That’s quite a lot of stuff there Arraya but all it does is say that jews have a claim on that land. We all knew that. And a movement to reclaim the land. Oh big whoops. And people who believe in prophecy and want to make it happen. Big whoops.
But where is the specific violent scripture that says “Kill the gentiles now and forever?”. There’s a difference between “God says this land is yours” and “God says kill them.”
Because I’m still waiting for that. And that is the fundamental difference between your position and mine. Jihadists say that their god wants them to kill people. What do jewish settlers want – they want their land back. Do you see the difference?
Participantfundies
That’s quite a lot of stuff there Arraya but all it does is say that jews have a claim on that land. We all knew that. And a movement to reclaim the land. Oh big whoops. And people who believe in prophecy and want to make it happen. Big whoops.
But where is the specific violent scripture that says “Kill the gentiles now and forever?”. There’s a difference between “God says this land is yours” and “God says kill them.”
Because I’m still waiting for that. And that is the fundamental difference between your position and mine. Jihadists say that their god wants them to kill people. What do jewish settlers want – they want their land back. Do you see the difference?
Participantfundies
That’s quite a lot of stuff there Arraya but all it does is say that jews have a claim on that land. We all knew that. And a movement to reclaim the land. Oh big whoops. And people who believe in prophecy and want to make it happen. Big whoops.
But where is the specific violent scripture that says “Kill the gentiles now and forever?”. There’s a difference between “God says this land is yours” and “God says kill them.”
Because I’m still waiting for that. And that is the fundamental difference between your position and mine. Jihadists say that their god wants them to kill people. What do jewish settlers want – they want their land back. Do you see the difference?
Participantfundies
That’s quite a lot of stuff there Arraya but all it does is say that jews have a claim on that land. We all knew that. And a movement to reclaim the land. Oh big whoops. And people who believe in prophecy and want to make it happen. Big whoops.
But where is the specific violent scripture that says “Kill the gentiles now and forever?”. There’s a difference between “God says this land is yours” and “God says kill them.”
Because I’m still waiting for that. And that is the fundamental difference between your position and mine. Jihadists say that their god wants them to kill people. What do jewish settlers want – they want their land back. Do you see the difference?
Participant[quote=pri_dk]
You quote one verse on the Koran that has the word “fight”, and then later quote another verse that simply has the word “terror” in it. (Both of these verses, are of course translated into English from Arabic, so we don’t really know exactly what they say.)
[/quote]True, you have to read arabic to truly understand what the verses say. However, you can look at the religious rulings made by the various reputable muslim scholars, and look at how they interpreted the verses and it has been confirmed that “terror” means “terror”.
ed. – as opposed to our hopeful interpretation of what it would be, which would be “fluffy”. LOL
[quote=pri_dk]From this you conclude that all acts of violence committed by Muslims are terrorist acts?[/quote]
Nope. Specifically I am saying that Hasan is a terrorist. Not all acts of violence by muslims can be considered terrorist in nature. However, by Hasan’s behavior, it was clear that he believed in and was following the commandments of the Koran. And in so doing, he committed a terrorist act.
[quote=pri_dk]And in case anyone is keeping score, don’t forget to count the murders committed on the other side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Federal_lawsuit
Being a religions fanatic that wants to kill all the infidels is much easier when you can just get a billion dollar government contract and use real weapons. No need to be creative and use airliners as weapons.[/quote]
When there are a thousand Erik Princes committing 10,000 killings in the name of his religion, then you would have a point. Otherwise, it just looks silly.
Participant[quote=pri_dk]
You quote one verse on the Koran that has the word “fight”, and then later quote another verse that simply has the word “terror” in it. (Both of these verses, are of course translated into English from Arabic, so we don’t really know exactly what they say.)
[/quote]True, you have to read arabic to truly understand what the verses say. However, you can look at the religious rulings made by the various reputable muslim scholars, and look at how they interpreted the verses and it has been confirmed that “terror” means “terror”.
ed. – as opposed to our hopeful interpretation of what it would be, which would be “fluffy”. LOL
[quote=pri_dk]From this you conclude that all acts of violence committed by Muslims are terrorist acts?[/quote]
Nope. Specifically I am saying that Hasan is a terrorist. Not all acts of violence by muslims can be considered terrorist in nature. However, by Hasan’s behavior, it was clear that he believed in and was following the commandments of the Koran. And in so doing, he committed a terrorist act.
[quote=pri_dk]And in case anyone is keeping score, don’t forget to count the murders committed on the other side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Federal_lawsuit
Being a religions fanatic that wants to kill all the infidels is much easier when you can just get a billion dollar government contract and use real weapons. No need to be creative and use airliners as weapons.[/quote]
When there are a thousand Erik Princes committing 10,000 killings in the name of his religion, then you would have a point. Otherwise, it just looks silly.
Participant[quote=pri_dk]
You quote one verse on the Koran that has the word “fight”, and then later quote another verse that simply has the word “terror” in it. (Both of these verses, are of course translated into English from Arabic, so we don’t really know exactly what they say.)
[/quote]True, you have to read arabic to truly understand what the verses say. However, you can look at the religious rulings made by the various reputable muslim scholars, and look at how they interpreted the verses and it has been confirmed that “terror” means “terror”.
ed. – as opposed to our hopeful interpretation of what it would be, which would be “fluffy”. LOL
[quote=pri_dk]From this you conclude that all acts of violence committed by Muslims are terrorist acts?[/quote]
Nope. Specifically I am saying that Hasan is a terrorist. Not all acts of violence by muslims can be considered terrorist in nature. However, by Hasan’s behavior, it was clear that he believed in and was following the commandments of the Koran. And in so doing, he committed a terrorist act.
[quote=pri_dk]And in case anyone is keeping score, don’t forget to count the murders committed on the other side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Federal_lawsuit
Being a religions fanatic that wants to kill all the infidels is much easier when you can just get a billion dollar government contract and use real weapons. No need to be creative and use airliners as weapons.[/quote]
When there are a thousand Erik Princes committing 10,000 killings in the name of his religion, then you would have a point. Otherwise, it just looks silly.
Participant[quote=pri_dk]
You quote one verse on the Koran that has the word “fight”, and then later quote another verse that simply has the word “terror” in it. (Both of these verses, are of course translated into English from Arabic, so we don’t really know exactly what they say.)
[/quote]True, you have to read arabic to truly understand what the verses say. However, you can look at the religious rulings made by the various reputable muslim scholars, and look at how they interpreted the verses and it has been confirmed that “terror” means “terror”.
ed. – as opposed to our hopeful interpretation of what it would be, which would be “fluffy”. LOL
[quote=pri_dk]From this you conclude that all acts of violence committed by Muslims are terrorist acts?[/quote]
Nope. Specifically I am saying that Hasan is a terrorist. Not all acts of violence by muslims can be considered terrorist in nature. However, by Hasan’s behavior, it was clear that he believed in and was following the commandments of the Koran. And in so doing, he committed a terrorist act.
[quote=pri_dk]And in case anyone is keeping score, don’t forget to count the murders committed on the other side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Federal_lawsuit
Being a religions fanatic that wants to kill all the infidels is much easier when you can just get a billion dollar government contract and use real weapons. No need to be creative and use airliners as weapons.[/quote]
When there are a thousand Erik Princes committing 10,000 killings in the name of his religion, then you would have a point. Otherwise, it just looks silly.
Participant[quote=pri_dk]
You quote one verse on the Koran that has the word “fight”, and then later quote another verse that simply has the word “terror” in it. (Both of these verses, are of course translated into English from Arabic, so we don’t really know exactly what they say.)
[/quote]True, you have to read arabic to truly understand what the verses say. However, you can look at the religious rulings made by the various reputable muslim scholars, and look at how they interpreted the verses and it has been confirmed that “terror” means “terror”.
ed. – as opposed to our hopeful interpretation of what it would be, which would be “fluffy”. LOL
[quote=pri_dk]From this you conclude that all acts of violence committed by Muslims are terrorist acts?[/quote]
Nope. Specifically I am saying that Hasan is a terrorist. Not all acts of violence by muslims can be considered terrorist in nature. However, by Hasan’s behavior, it was clear that he believed in and was following the commandments of the Koran. And in so doing, he committed a terrorist act.
[quote=pri_dk]And in case anyone is keeping score, don’t forget to count the murders committed on the other side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Federal_lawsuit
Being a religions fanatic that wants to kill all the infidels is much easier when you can just get a billion dollar government contract and use real weapons. No need to be creative and use airliners as weapons.[/quote]
When there are a thousand Erik Princes committing 10,000 killings in the name of his religion, then you would have a point. Otherwise, it just looks silly.
Participant[quote=Arraya]Right now fundamentalist evangelicals and zionists are actively supporting ethnic cleansing in Gaza because of prophecy and divine right.[/quote]
So what scripture of the Talmud are they using to justify their ethnic cleansing?
[quote=Arraya]However, this is state sanctioned religious fundamentalism and the cause of much of the resurgence of muslim religious killing.[/quote]
No, actually persecution of others and specifically jews by muslims has been going on for centuries. It never stopped.
[quote=Arraya]Jihadists actively seeking to kill innocents took a several hundred year hiatus until the past few decades. It is helpful to understand why rather than blathering about religious scripture. Because two can play that game.[/quote]
I don’t see you quoting any scripture. Because if you’re playing that game, you’re not even scoring.
But I will tell you that jihadism was badly damaged during WW2 when the Mufti of Jerusalem sided with Adolf Hitler.
Jihadism also failed miserably at blackmailing the then new nation of the United States into protection money. This resulted in the first Barbary War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
The ambassadors strategy of the Barbary states (who were independent muslim states at the time) is very telling:
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy’s ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.
Whoops there’s that word again. And gee, they must be so pissed off at zionism because they are clearly engaging in terrorism and jihadist behavior. Too bad this occurred a couple of hundred years before Israel was founded.
Anyways, it just seems like you’re just trying too hard to basically say, “we’re just as violent as them” or “well the zionists do it so the jihadists are justified”. Or “well we go to war and we need excuses”. Or other things. Kind of like telling a raped woman, well you dressed inappropriately, you were asking for it.
Unfortunately, the jihadists do know why they do what they do and they tell us. They say it is because they have been commanded by Mohammed. They often say it is because the Koran commands that they attack jews and infidels. Now these motivations have nothing to do with zionists or oil, or anything else. They’ve been telling us their motivations for centuries and even after 9/11 many of us aren’t listening.
Still, some interesting reading:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574300241762121888.html
The Hebron Massacre. No jewish state then. No zionists then. No war for oil then. But yet here is a modern example of jihadism.
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