[jstoesz]

Fair enough…I would support efforts on both fronts. In an ideal world, I would go farther, but life is about practicality as inelegant as it may be.

If we are giving tax money to anything, it comes with strings attached (hopefully anyways)…

[jstoesz]

Fair enough…I would support efforts on both fronts. In an ideal world, I would go farther, but life is about practicality as inelegant as it may be.

If we are giving tax money to anything, it comes with strings attached (hopefully anyways)…

[jstoesz]

ucodegen, There are definitely problems associated with their model. And I doubt I would send my child to a similarly styled curriculum. My point was not that they are perfect, but that they are different. They very well may be perfect for one child but not another. The beauty is in the choice not whether it is universally applicable.

To the issue of whether we teach secular humanism in schools, I think we do. Just by removing God from all discussion, one can not argue for/against something from any position but secular humanism (or some derivative)…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

But alas, this issue has come up in the court system as well, and my view point has been ruled against. So you all obviously have legs to stand on, I just disagree. After all the courts have been supportive of the overall growth of government everywhere…I find GSEs beyond the scope of the federal government, but the courts disagree with me on that too.

[jstoesz]

ucodegen, There are definitely problems associated with their model. And I doubt I would send my child to a similarly styled curriculum. My point was not that they are perfect, but that they are different. They very well may be perfect for one child but not another. The beauty is in the choice not whether it is universally applicable.

To the issue of whether we teach secular humanism in schools, I think we do. Just by removing God from all discussion, one can not argue for/against something from any position but secular humanism (or some derivative)…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

But alas, this issue has come up in the court system as well, and my view point has been ruled against. So you all obviously have legs to stand on, I just disagree. After all the courts have been supportive of the overall growth of government everywhere…I find GSEs beyond the scope of the federal government, but the courts disagree with me on that too.

[jstoesz]

ucodegen, There are definitely problems associated with their model. And I doubt I would send my child to a similarly styled curriculum. My point was not that they are perfect, but that they are different. They very well may be perfect for one child but not another. The beauty is in the choice not whether it is universally applicable.

To the issue of whether we teach secular humanism in schools, I think we do. Just by removing God from all discussion, one can not argue for/against something from any position but secular humanism (or some derivative)…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

But alas, this issue has come up in the court system as well, and my view point has been ruled against. So you all obviously have legs to stand on, I just disagree. After all the courts have been supportive of the overall growth of government everywhere…I find GSEs beyond the scope of the federal government, but the courts disagree with me on that too.

[jstoesz]

ucodegen, There are definitely problems associated with their model. And I doubt I would send my child to a similarly styled curriculum. My point was not that they are perfect, but that they are different. They very well may be perfect for one child but not another. The beauty is in the choice not whether it is universally applicable.

To the issue of whether we teach secular humanism in schools, I think we do. Just by removing God from all discussion, one can not argue for/against something from any position but secular humanism (or some derivative)…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

But alas, this issue has come up in the court system as well, and my view point has been ruled against. So you all obviously have legs to stand on, I just disagree. After all the courts have been supportive of the overall growth of government everywhere…I find GSEs beyond the scope of the federal government, but the courts disagree with me on that too.

[jstoesz]

ucodegen, There are definitely problems associated with their model. And I doubt I would send my child to a similarly styled curriculum. My point was not that they are perfect, but that they are different. They very well may be perfect for one child but not another. The beauty is in the choice not whether it is universally applicable.

To the issue of whether we teach secular humanism in schools, I think we do. Just by removing God from all discussion, one can not argue for/against something from any position but secular humanism (or some derivative)…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

But alas, this issue has come up in the court system as well, and my view point has been ruled against. So you all obviously have legs to stand on, I just disagree. After all the courts have been supportive of the overall growth of government everywhere…I find GSEs beyond the scope of the federal government, but the courts disagree with me on that too.

[jstoesz]

Fair enough, about how our money goes into the general fund, and we don’t get to choose which services we want to pay for and ones we don’t. I totally understand and agree. This is kind of elemental to a society.

I am arguing for choice and freedom in many areas, as opposed to a one size fits all public school system. I think there is a place for creationism in some schools, but certainly not in place of evolution. And certainly not in every school (whichever school your child attends)…

You are right that thankfully we can vote for things. I just wish we had a little more freedom in where and what our children learn. I see the charter school movement as a big improvement with schools like High Tech High and middle school in Pt. Loma. I would like to see more of that sort of thing, but have it branch out into more than just science, and art, but philosophy and religion. You can not compartmentalize learning into distinct subjects. A belief in God (or disbelief) affects and influences every part of a person. If you read Dostoevsky, you must talk about morality, but morality can not be discussed without bringing up God. Similarly, how do you talk about the creation of the universe without at least brushing on the subject of who made matter, or how the physical laws came to be? Hawking may disagree with me.

I am not advocating one religion over another, I am just stating that there is a place for Religion in the upbringing of our children. Children spend a large percentage of their lives in school, I would like the school that I choose to reflect the values that I hold. Maybe that is why I am going to be spending my after tax dollars on private schools…

[jstoesz]

Fair enough, about how our money goes into the general fund, and we don’t get to choose which services we want to pay for and ones we don’t. I totally understand and agree. This is kind of elemental to a society.

I am arguing for choice and freedom in many areas, as opposed to a one size fits all public school system. I think there is a place for creationism in some schools, but certainly not in place of evolution. And certainly not in every school (whichever school your child attends)…

You are right that thankfully we can vote for things. I just wish we had a little more freedom in where and what our children learn. I see the charter school movement as a big improvement with schools like High Tech High and middle school in Pt. Loma. I would like to see more of that sort of thing, but have it branch out into more than just science, and art, but philosophy and religion. You can not compartmentalize learning into distinct subjects. A belief in God (or disbelief) affects and influences every part of a person. If you read Dostoevsky, you must talk about morality, but morality can not be discussed without bringing up God. Similarly, how do you talk about the creation of the universe without at least brushing on the subject of who made matter, or how the physical laws came to be? Hawking may disagree with me.

I am not advocating one religion over another, I am just stating that there is a place for Religion in the upbringing of our children. Children spend a large percentage of their lives in school, I would like the school that I choose to reflect the values that I hold. Maybe that is why I am going to be spending my after tax dollars on private schools…

[jstoesz]

Fair enough, about how our money goes into the general fund, and we don’t get to choose which services we want to pay for and ones we don’t. I totally understand and agree. This is kind of elemental to a society.

I am arguing for choice and freedom in many areas, as opposed to a one size fits all public school system. I think there is a place for creationism in some schools, but certainly not in place of evolution. And certainly not in every school (whichever school your child attends)…

You are right that thankfully we can vote for things. I just wish we had a little more freedom in where and what our children learn. I see the charter school movement as a big improvement with schools like High Tech High and middle school in Pt. Loma. I would like to see more of that sort of thing, but have it branch out into more than just science, and art, but philosophy and religion. You can not compartmentalize learning into distinct subjects. A belief in God (or disbelief) affects and influences every part of a person. If you read Dostoevsky, you must talk about morality, but morality can not be discussed without bringing up God. Similarly, how do you talk about the creation of the universe without at least brushing on the subject of who made matter, or how the physical laws came to be? Hawking may disagree with me.

I am not advocating one religion over another, I am just stating that there is a place for Religion in the upbringing of our children. Children spend a large percentage of their lives in school, I would like the school that I choose to reflect the values that I hold. Maybe that is why I am going to be spending my after tax dollars on private schools…

[jstoesz]

Fair enough, about how our money goes into the general fund, and we don’t get to choose which services we want to pay for and ones we don’t. I totally understand and agree. This is kind of elemental to a society.

I am arguing for choice and freedom in many areas, as opposed to a one size fits all public school system. I think there is a place for creationism in some schools, but certainly not in place of evolution. And certainly not in every school (whichever school your child attends)…

You are right that thankfully we can vote for things. I just wish we had a little more freedom in where and what our children learn. I see the charter school movement as a big improvement with schools like High Tech High and middle school in Pt. Loma. I would like to see more of that sort of thing, but have it branch out into more than just science, and art, but philosophy and religion. You can not compartmentalize learning into distinct subjects. A belief in God (or disbelief) affects and influences every part of a person. If you read Dostoevsky, you must talk about morality, but morality can not be discussed without bringing up God. Similarly, how do you talk about the creation of the universe without at least brushing on the subject of who made matter, or how the physical laws came to be? Hawking may disagree with me.

I am not advocating one religion over another, I am just stating that there is a place for Religion in the upbringing of our children. Children spend a large percentage of their lives in school, I would like the school that I choose to reflect the values that I hold. Maybe that is why I am going to be spending my after tax dollars on private schools…

[jstoesz]

Fair enough, about how our money goes into the general fund, and we don’t get to choose which services we want to pay for and ones we don’t. I totally understand and agree. This is kind of elemental to a society.

I am arguing for choice and freedom in many areas, as opposed to a one size fits all public school system. I think there is a place for creationism in some schools, but certainly not in place of evolution. And certainly not in every school (whichever school your child attends)…

You are right that thankfully we can vote for things. I just wish we had a little more freedom in where and what our children learn. I see the charter school movement as a big improvement with schools like High Tech High and middle school in Pt. Loma. I would like to see more of that sort of thing, but have it branch out into more than just science, and art, but philosophy and religion. You can not compartmentalize learning into distinct subjects. A belief in God (or disbelief) affects and influences every part of a person. If you read Dostoevsky, you must talk about morality, but morality can not be discussed without bringing up God. Similarly, how do you talk about the creation of the universe without at least brushing on the subject of who made matter, or how the physical laws came to be? Hawking may disagree with me.

I am not advocating one religion over another, I am just stating that there is a place for Religion in the upbringing of our children. Children spend a large percentage of their lives in school, I would like the school that I choose to reflect the values that I hold. Maybe that is why I am going to be spending my after tax dollars on private schools…

[jstoesz]

oooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.

[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]

So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…

[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…

[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]

Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).

[jstoesz]

oooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.

[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]

So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…

[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…

[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]

Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).

[jstoesz]

oooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.

[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]

So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…

[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…

[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]

Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).

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