[investor]

[quote=CA renter][quote=investor][quote=Eugene]To me this looks like misleading accounting with the intent to make the government look bad.

For example, people whose jobs were saved because of $70 mln in DPW spending obviously did not earn $1.5 million/year. Where is the money? Two thirds of the DPW stimulus budget involved street resurfacing projects. There are substantial costs associated with these projects, in addition to direct labor costs, (e.g. equipment rental and raw materials) and you can’t say that spending money to buy asphalt and rent heavy equipment does not create jobs. Were all these jobs counted correctly? I bet they weren’t.

About those traffic lights. Notice that the cost quoted is ‘per location’. At a typical intersection, there are at least eight normal traffic lights (x3 or 4 light bulbs each), + pedestrian traffic lights. One traffic-light-sized LED light bulb can cost on the order of $100. So $5000 per intersection, including labor, seems reasonable. Again, where does most of the money go? To light bulb manufacturers. Those are probably located in the United States because of the ‘buy American’ provision in the stimulus bill (Republicans wanted to take it out, but failed). Did anyone count jobs saved and created in the company that produced and supplied light bulbs, and in the company that produced raw materials for those light bulbs …? Evidently not.[/quote]
Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? I spent 5 years in the USAF, probably the best run government organization (the military not just the air force) and every august, we were given a dream list of things to buy just so we would not have our budget reduced for the next year. If you ran your flight/squadron efficiently, you were penalized by having your budget decreased for the next year. EVERYONE did it. It is institutionalized and will never be routed out since the motives are the opposite of what they should be. This is just one example. Think about the lobby money that buys bridges to nowhere and you are beginning to see why all governments are very wasteful. The only way to reduce the waste is to reduce the size of government to its smallest size possible. I do believe in a safety net for society but to defend criticism of the wasteful government….. Bulbs being produced in America, when they are made on an assembly line by the thousands cannot account for many jobs either. I do applaud your independent thinking though. Keep that up.[/quote]

1. Good post, Eugene. I agree with most of what you’ve said, and have seen the media distort the truth in order to serve their own agenda.

2. Investor, you are also right about the budgeting methods. That being said, “smaller government” does not solve that problem. What would solve the problem is incentivizing efficiency and productivity by making departments compete to see who can most effectively increase productivity and save the most money. The winners should be rewarded for their achievements, while the losers should be subject to a formal review of their budgeting and business practices.[/quote]
With your ideals, I agree. The problem is how to incentivise the government workers/ system. If you could make government efficient, the UAW (whom I lump together with government, which you may not agree with) would put out competitive cars wouldn’t they?

[investor]

[quote=CA renter][quote=investor][quote=Eugene]To me this looks like misleading accounting with the intent to make the government look bad.

For example, people whose jobs were saved because of $70 mln in DPW spending obviously did not earn $1.5 million/year. Where is the money? Two thirds of the DPW stimulus budget involved street resurfacing projects. There are substantial costs associated with these projects, in addition to direct labor costs, (e.g. equipment rental and raw materials) and you can’t say that spending money to buy asphalt and rent heavy equipment does not create jobs. Were all these jobs counted correctly? I bet they weren’t.

About those traffic lights. Notice that the cost quoted is ‘per location’. At a typical intersection, there are at least eight normal traffic lights (x3 or 4 light bulbs each), + pedestrian traffic lights. One traffic-light-sized LED light bulb can cost on the order of $100. So $5000 per intersection, including labor, seems reasonable. Again, where does most of the money go? To light bulb manufacturers. Those are probably located in the United States because of the ‘buy American’ provision in the stimulus bill (Republicans wanted to take it out, but failed). Did anyone count jobs saved and created in the company that produced and supplied light bulbs, and in the company that produced raw materials for those light bulbs …? Evidently not.[/quote]
Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? I spent 5 years in the USAF, probably the best run government organization (the military not just the air force) and every august, we were given a dream list of things to buy just so we would not have our budget reduced for the next year. If you ran your flight/squadron efficiently, you were penalized by having your budget decreased for the next year. EVERYONE did it. It is institutionalized and will never be routed out since the motives are the opposite of what they should be. This is just one example. Think about the lobby money that buys bridges to nowhere and you are beginning to see why all governments are very wasteful. The only way to reduce the waste is to reduce the size of government to its smallest size possible. I do believe in a safety net for society but to defend criticism of the wasteful government….. Bulbs being produced in America, when they are made on an assembly line by the thousands cannot account for many jobs either. I do applaud your independent thinking though. Keep that up.[/quote]

1. Good post, Eugene. I agree with most of what you’ve said, and have seen the media distort the truth in order to serve their own agenda.

2. Investor, you are also right about the budgeting methods. That being said, “smaller government” does not solve that problem. What would solve the problem is incentivizing efficiency and productivity by making departments compete to see who can most effectively increase productivity and save the most money. The winners should be rewarded for their achievements, while the losers should be subject to a formal review of their budgeting and business practices.[/quote]
With your ideals, I agree. The problem is how to incentivise the government workers/ system. If you could make government efficient, the UAW (whom I lump together with government, which you may not agree with) would put out competitive cars wouldn’t they?

[investor]

[quote=CA renter][quote=investor][quote=Eugene]To me this looks like misleading accounting with the intent to make the government look bad.

For example, people whose jobs were saved because of $70 mln in DPW spending obviously did not earn $1.5 million/year. Where is the money? Two thirds of the DPW stimulus budget involved street resurfacing projects. There are substantial costs associated with these projects, in addition to direct labor costs, (e.g. equipment rental and raw materials) and you can’t say that spending money to buy asphalt and rent heavy equipment does not create jobs. Were all these jobs counted correctly? I bet they weren’t.

About those traffic lights. Notice that the cost quoted is ‘per location’. At a typical intersection, there are at least eight normal traffic lights (x3 or 4 light bulbs each), + pedestrian traffic lights. One traffic-light-sized LED light bulb can cost on the order of $100. So $5000 per intersection, including labor, seems reasonable. Again, where does most of the money go? To light bulb manufacturers. Those are probably located in the United States because of the ‘buy American’ provision in the stimulus bill (Republicans wanted to take it out, but failed). Did anyone count jobs saved and created in the company that produced and supplied light bulbs, and in the company that produced raw materials for those light bulbs …? Evidently not.[/quote]
Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? I spent 5 years in the USAF, probably the best run government organization (the military not just the air force) and every august, we were given a dream list of things to buy just so we would not have our budget reduced for the next year. If you ran your flight/squadron efficiently, you were penalized by having your budget decreased for the next year. EVERYONE did it. It is institutionalized and will never be routed out since the motives are the opposite of what they should be. This is just one example. Think about the lobby money that buys bridges to nowhere and you are beginning to see why all governments are very wasteful. The only way to reduce the waste is to reduce the size of government to its smallest size possible. I do believe in a safety net for society but to defend criticism of the wasteful government….. Bulbs being produced in America, when they are made on an assembly line by the thousands cannot account for many jobs either. I do applaud your independent thinking though. Keep that up.[/quote]

1. Good post, Eugene. I agree with most of what you’ve said, and have seen the media distort the truth in order to serve their own agenda.

2. Investor, you are also right about the budgeting methods. That being said, “smaller government” does not solve that problem. What would solve the problem is incentivizing efficiency and productivity by making departments compete to see who can most effectively increase productivity and save the most money. The winners should be rewarded for their achievements, while the losers should be subject to a formal review of their budgeting and business practices.[/quote]
With your ideals, I agree. The problem is how to incentivise the government workers/ system. If you could make government efficient, the UAW (whom I lump together with government, which you may not agree with) would put out competitive cars wouldn’t they?

[investor]

[quote=CA renter][quote=investor][quote=Eugene]To me this looks like misleading accounting with the intent to make the government look bad.

For example, people whose jobs were saved because of $70 mln in DPW spending obviously did not earn $1.5 million/year. Where is the money? Two thirds of the DPW stimulus budget involved street resurfacing projects. There are substantial costs associated with these projects, in addition to direct labor costs, (e.g. equipment rental and raw materials) and you can’t say that spending money to buy asphalt and rent heavy equipment does not create jobs. Were all these jobs counted correctly? I bet they weren’t.

About those traffic lights. Notice that the cost quoted is ‘per location’. At a typical intersection, there are at least eight normal traffic lights (x3 or 4 light bulbs each), + pedestrian traffic lights. One traffic-light-sized LED light bulb can cost on the order of $100. So $5000 per intersection, including labor, seems reasonable. Again, where does most of the money go? To light bulb manufacturers. Those are probably located in the United States because of the ‘buy American’ provision in the stimulus bill (Republicans wanted to take it out, but failed). Did anyone count jobs saved and created in the company that produced and supplied light bulbs, and in the company that produced raw materials for those light bulbs …? Evidently not.[/quote]
Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? I spent 5 years in the USAF, probably the best run government organization (the military not just the air force) and every august, we were given a dream list of things to buy just so we would not have our budget reduced for the next year. If you ran your flight/squadron efficiently, you were penalized by having your budget decreased for the next year. EVERYONE did it. It is institutionalized and will never be routed out since the motives are the opposite of what they should be. This is just one example. Think about the lobby money that buys bridges to nowhere and you are beginning to see why all governments are very wasteful. The only way to reduce the waste is to reduce the size of government to its smallest size possible. I do believe in a safety net for society but to defend criticism of the wasteful government….. Bulbs being produced in America, when they are made on an assembly line by the thousands cannot account for many jobs either. I do applaud your independent thinking though. Keep that up.[/quote]

1. Good post, Eugene. I agree with most of what you’ve said, and have seen the media distort the truth in order to serve their own agenda.

2. Investor, you are also right about the budgeting methods. That being said, “smaller government” does not solve that problem. What would solve the problem is incentivizing efficiency and productivity by making departments compete to see who can most effectively increase productivity and save the most money. The winners should be rewarded for their achievements, while the losers should be subject to a formal review of their budgeting and business practices.[/quote]
With your ideals, I agree. The problem is how to incentivise the government workers/ system. If you could make government efficient, the UAW (whom I lump together with government, which you may not agree with) would put out competitive cars wouldn’t they?

[investor]

[quote=CA renter][quote=investor][quote=Eugene]To me this looks like misleading accounting with the intent to make the government look bad.

For example, people whose jobs were saved because of $70 mln in DPW spending obviously did not earn $1.5 million/year. Where is the money? Two thirds of the DPW stimulus budget involved street resurfacing projects. There are substantial costs associated with these projects, in addition to direct labor costs, (e.g. equipment rental and raw materials) and you can’t say that spending money to buy asphalt and rent heavy equipment does not create jobs. Were all these jobs counted correctly? I bet they weren’t.

About those traffic lights. Notice that the cost quoted is ‘per location’. At a typical intersection, there are at least eight normal traffic lights (x3 or 4 light bulbs each), + pedestrian traffic lights. One traffic-light-sized LED light bulb can cost on the order of $100. So $5000 per intersection, including labor, seems reasonable. Again, where does most of the money go? To light bulb manufacturers. Those are probably located in the United States because of the ‘buy American’ provision in the stimulus bill (Republicans wanted to take it out, but failed). Did anyone count jobs saved and created in the company that produced and supplied light bulbs, and in the company that produced raw materials for those light bulbs …? Evidently not.[/quote]
Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? I spent 5 years in the USAF, probably the best run government organization (the military not just the air force) and every august, we were given a dream list of things to buy just so we would not have our budget reduced for the next year. If you ran your flight/squadron efficiently, you were penalized by having your budget decreased for the next year. EVERYONE did it. It is institutionalized and will never be routed out since the motives are the opposite of what they should be. This is just one example. Think about the lobby money that buys bridges to nowhere and you are beginning to see why all governments are very wasteful. The only way to reduce the waste is to reduce the size of government to its smallest size possible. I do believe in a safety net for society but to defend criticism of the wasteful government….. Bulbs being produced in America, when they are made on an assembly line by the thousands cannot account for many jobs either. I do applaud your independent thinking though. Keep that up.[/quote]

1. Good post, Eugene. I agree with most of what you’ve said, and have seen the media distort the truth in order to serve their own agenda.

2. Investor, you are also right about the budgeting methods. That being said, “smaller government” does not solve that problem. What would solve the problem is incentivizing efficiency and productivity by making departments compete to see who can most effectively increase productivity and save the most money. The winners should be rewarded for their achievements, while the losers should be subject to a formal review of their budgeting and business practices.[/quote]
With your ideals, I agree. The problem is how to incentivise the government workers/ system. If you could make government efficient, the UAW (whom I lump together with government, which you may not agree with) would put out competitive cars wouldn’t they?

[investor]

[quote=Eugene][quote=flu]

HA HA…Are you serious…Take a look at any compact florescent or LED based light…Find me one that is made here? I guarantee it will be either Mexico or China….[/quote]

Well, that’s a potential problem. If you spend stimulus money to create jobs, it’s not guaranteed that all jobs will be created in this country rather than in China. Conversely, when the Chinese spend money on stimulus, some jobs are created here. Global economy at work. But like I said, there was a buy American provision in the stimulus bill, and traffic light LEDs are not exactly your garden variety compact fluorescents, so everything is possible.

I couldn’t easily track down their supplier of traffic lights, but LA is also actively involved in replacing its street lights with LEDs, and the supplier of those (BetaLED) has a factory in Wisconsin. It may import some of the parts from China, but their streetlight spec sheet states: “Made in the U.S.A. of U.S. and imported parts. Meets Buy American requirements within the ARRA.” (ARRA = American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = Obama stimulus)

[quote]Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? [/quote]

I’m not saying that the government is not wasteful. It’s entirely possible that the government spent 9 million to install LED traffic lights and some private contractor could have done the job for 7 million. I am saying that “$1.5 million per job” and “$4.4 million per job” figures are a lot of bonk, they are created by unscrupulous people who hate the government in any form (and the Obama government in particular), and they intended to inflame and mislead people.[/quote]
I don’t know. It’s hard to assign motives. I think most people realize that some form of federal government is neccesary, it’s just that the longer you work in government, the more you realize that it is almost impossible to control waste.So, you control it by reducing the size of gevernment.

[investor]

[quote=Eugene][quote=flu]

HA HA…Are you serious…Take a look at any compact florescent or LED based light…Find me one that is made here? I guarantee it will be either Mexico or China….[/quote]

Well, that’s a potential problem. If you spend stimulus money to create jobs, it’s not guaranteed that all jobs will be created in this country rather than in China. Conversely, when the Chinese spend money on stimulus, some jobs are created here. Global economy at work. But like I said, there was a buy American provision in the stimulus bill, and traffic light LEDs are not exactly your garden variety compact fluorescents, so everything is possible.

I couldn’t easily track down their supplier of traffic lights, but LA is also actively involved in replacing its street lights with LEDs, and the supplier of those (BetaLED) has a factory in Wisconsin. It may import some of the parts from China, but their streetlight spec sheet states: “Made in the U.S.A. of U.S. and imported parts. Meets Buy American requirements within the ARRA.” (ARRA = American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = Obama stimulus)

[quote]Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? [/quote]

I’m not saying that the government is not wasteful. It’s entirely possible that the government spent 9 million to install LED traffic lights and some private contractor could have done the job for 7 million. I am saying that “$1.5 million per job” and “$4.4 million per job” figures are a lot of bonk, they are created by unscrupulous people who hate the government in any form (and the Obama government in particular), and they intended to inflame and mislead people.[/quote]
I don’t know. It’s hard to assign motives. I think most people realize that some form of federal government is neccesary, it’s just that the longer you work in government, the more you realize that it is almost impossible to control waste.So, you control it by reducing the size of gevernment.

[investor]

[quote=Eugene][quote=flu]

HA HA…Are you serious…Take a look at any compact florescent or LED based light…Find me one that is made here? I guarantee it will be either Mexico or China….[/quote]

Well, that’s a potential problem. If you spend stimulus money to create jobs, it’s not guaranteed that all jobs will be created in this country rather than in China. Conversely, when the Chinese spend money on stimulus, some jobs are created here. Global economy at work. But like I said, there was a buy American provision in the stimulus bill, and traffic light LEDs are not exactly your garden variety compact fluorescents, so everything is possible.

I couldn’t easily track down their supplier of traffic lights, but LA is also actively involved in replacing its street lights with LEDs, and the supplier of those (BetaLED) has a factory in Wisconsin. It may import some of the parts from China, but their streetlight spec sheet states: “Made in the U.S.A. of U.S. and imported parts. Meets Buy American requirements within the ARRA.” (ARRA = American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = Obama stimulus)

[quote]Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? [/quote]

I’m not saying that the government is not wasteful. It’s entirely possible that the government spent 9 million to install LED traffic lights and some private contractor could have done the job for 7 million. I am saying that “$1.5 million per job” and “$4.4 million per job” figures are a lot of bonk, they are created by unscrupulous people who hate the government in any form (and the Obama government in particular), and they intended to inflame and mislead people.[/quote]
I don’t know. It’s hard to assign motives. I think most people realize that some form of federal government is neccesary, it’s just that the longer you work in government, the more you realize that it is almost impossible to control waste.So, you control it by reducing the size of gevernment.

[investor]

[quote=Eugene][quote=flu]

HA HA…Are you serious…Take a look at any compact florescent or LED based light…Find me one that is made here? I guarantee it will be either Mexico or China….[/quote]

Well, that’s a potential problem. If you spend stimulus money to create jobs, it’s not guaranteed that all jobs will be created in this country rather than in China. Conversely, when the Chinese spend money on stimulus, some jobs are created here. Global economy at work. But like I said, there was a buy American provision in the stimulus bill, and traffic light LEDs are not exactly your garden variety compact fluorescents, so everything is possible.

I couldn’t easily track down their supplier of traffic lights, but LA is also actively involved in replacing its street lights with LEDs, and the supplier of those (BetaLED) has a factory in Wisconsin. It may import some of the parts from China, but their streetlight spec sheet states: “Made in the U.S.A. of U.S. and imported parts. Meets Buy American requirements within the ARRA.” (ARRA = American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = Obama stimulus)

[quote]Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? [/quote]

I’m not saying that the government is not wasteful. It’s entirely possible that the government spent 9 million to install LED traffic lights and some private contractor could have done the job for 7 million. I am saying that “$1.5 million per job” and “$4.4 million per job” figures are a lot of bonk, they are created by unscrupulous people who hate the government in any form (and the Obama government in particular), and they intended to inflame and mislead people.[/quote]
I don’t know. It’s hard to assign motives. I think most people realize that some form of federal government is neccesary, it’s just that the longer you work in government, the more you realize that it is almost impossible to control waste.So, you control it by reducing the size of gevernment.

[investor]

[quote=Eugene][quote=flu]

HA HA…Are you serious…Take a look at any compact florescent or LED based light…Find me one that is made here? I guarantee it will be either Mexico or China….[/quote]

Well, that’s a potential problem. If you spend stimulus money to create jobs, it’s not guaranteed that all jobs will be created in this country rather than in China. Conversely, when the Chinese spend money on stimulus, some jobs are created here. Global economy at work. But like I said, there was a buy American provision in the stimulus bill, and traffic light LEDs are not exactly your garden variety compact fluorescents, so everything is possible.

I couldn’t easily track down their supplier of traffic lights, but LA is also actively involved in replacing its street lights with LEDs, and the supplier of those (BetaLED) has a factory in Wisconsin. It may import some of the parts from China, but their streetlight spec sheet states: “Made in the U.S.A. of U.S. and imported parts. Meets Buy American requirements within the ARRA.” (ARRA = American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = Obama stimulus)

[quote]Eugene. With all due respect, you have got to be kidding. Are you actually defending ANY government in not being wasteful? [/quote]

I’m not saying that the government is not wasteful. It’s entirely possible that the government spent 9 million to install LED traffic lights and some private contractor could have done the job for 7 million. I am saying that “$1.5 million per job” and “$4.4 million per job” figures are a lot of bonk, they are created by unscrupulous people who hate the government in any form (and the Obama government in particular), and they intended to inflame and mislead people.[/quote]
I don’t know. It’s hard to assign motives. I think most people realize that some form of federal government is neccesary, it’s just that the longer you work in government, the more you realize that it is almost impossible to control waste.So, you control it by reducing the size of gevernment.

[investor]

[quote=afx114][quote=Aecetia]a huge area of Hoovervilles surrounding the major cities.[/quote]

But what would we call them? Cartereaganushtonushbamavilles?[/quote]
Touché.

[investor]

[quote=afx114][quote=Aecetia]a huge area of Hoovervilles surrounding the major cities.[/quote]

But what would we call them? Cartereaganushtonushbamavilles?[/quote]
Touché.

[investor]

[quote=afx114][quote=Aecetia]a huge area of Hoovervilles surrounding the major cities.[/quote]

But what would we call them? Cartereaganushtonushbamavilles?[/quote]
Touché.

[investor]

[quote=afx114][quote=Aecetia]a huge area of Hoovervilles surrounding the major cities.[/quote]

But what would we call them? Cartereaganushtonushbamavilles?[/quote]
Touché.

[investor]

[quote=afx114][quote=Aecetia]a huge area of Hoovervilles surrounding the major cities.[/quote]

But what would we call them? Cartereaganushtonushbamavilles?[/quote]
Touché.

[Author]

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