[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=pabloesqobar]
My ex-girlfriend has been on Unemployment for 2 years. I’d be willing to bet that the 5 year limit for Welfare is likewise negotiable, depending on the circumstances. [/quote]

That’s an exception because of the recession. Congress has extended unemployment benefits several times. It’s a quick way to get the money into the economy. The bailouts have many beneficiaries who don’t really deserve bailouts.

In normal times, unemployment is limited to 6 months.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/18/AR2010061800211.html

The 5 year lifetime on welfare is non-negotiable.

Fraud is when people get benefits that they are not entitled to through fraud. Your girlfriend is entitled to the benefits since she’s unemployed.

If we don’t like to provide benefits to people who are unemployed or have little money and assets then that’s a policy question, not a fraud or criminal question.

So let’s not accuse people of fraud who do not commit fraud. Laziness is not a crime.

As far as Medicaid is concerned, the larger problem is not poor people who use the benefits. It’s the middle-class folks who have assets but give away their assets then go on the public dole near their sunset years.

It’s also doctors who abuse the system and order unnecessary treatment, which is fraud when done knowingly.

If welfare is so good, then anyone can put himself in the position to receive benefits. It’s still not fraud.[/quote]

Sorry, Brian, I don’t agree with you on this one. Although I believe in helping those of our citizenry who are genuinely in need, there’s no question that we’ve become an entitled society through the largesse of our government, fueled by vote-hungry politicians of all stripes.

It IS fraud if you are not complying 100 percent with the terms and conditions of any of these programs. You may be entitled to unemployment because you are without a job, but you are legally bound to search for work on a regular basis, keep a written record of said search, and accept an offer of employment even if it’s not your dream job, or (in some cases) even in your regular line of work. And while it is true that unemployment insurance is drawn from a fund that is composed of obligatory payments from employers in the form of a tax on each employee they hire, the funds are rapidly running dry as a result of the huge number of layoffs. The feds are kicking in on the shortfall currently, but, given the situation, the states are going to have to raise the unemployment tax rate, and that doesn’t bode well for future jobs growth.

The examples you give are certainly accurate, but “poor people” are capable of committing fraud too. When a welfare/food stamps recipient is allowing her employed boyfriend to live with her and her kids, it’s fraud. When you’ve gone through a government-funded education program while receiving additional help in the form of cash assistance, food stamps, and childcare, and then quit your job after a month because your paycheck isn’t high enough, it’s fraud. None of these programs permits “laziness” in its eligibility guidelines. The real issue is that it’s both difficult, and politically risky, to measure laziness, so it becomes a non-issue in the administration of these programs.

There is a genuine need for these programs. But they were not designed to be permanent income providers for citizens of the United States. And, despite the “rules”, it’s readily apparent that, for a great number of people, they’ve become just that.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=pabloesqobar]
My ex-girlfriend has been on Unemployment for 2 years. I’d be willing to bet that the 5 year limit for Welfare is likewise negotiable, depending on the circumstances. [/quote]

That’s an exception because of the recession. Congress has extended unemployment benefits several times. It’s a quick way to get the money into the economy. The bailouts have many beneficiaries who don’t really deserve bailouts.

In normal times, unemployment is limited to 6 months.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/18/AR2010061800211.html

The 5 year lifetime on welfare is non-negotiable.

Fraud is when people get benefits that they are not entitled to through fraud. Your girlfriend is entitled to the benefits since she’s unemployed.

If we don’t like to provide benefits to people who are unemployed or have little money and assets then that’s a policy question, not a fraud or criminal question.

So let’s not accuse people of fraud who do not commit fraud. Laziness is not a crime.

As far as Medicaid is concerned, the larger problem is not poor people who use the benefits. It’s the middle-class folks who have assets but give away their assets then go on the public dole near their sunset years.

It’s also doctors who abuse the system and order unnecessary treatment, which is fraud when done knowingly.

If welfare is so good, then anyone can put himself in the position to receive benefits. It’s still not fraud.[/quote]

Sorry, Brian, I don’t agree with you on this one. Although I believe in helping those of our citizenry who are genuinely in need, there’s no question that we’ve become an entitled society through the largesse of our government, fueled by vote-hungry politicians of all stripes.

It IS fraud if you are not complying 100 percent with the terms and conditions of any of these programs. You may be entitled to unemployment because you are without a job, but you are legally bound to search for work on a regular basis, keep a written record of said search, and accept an offer of employment even if it’s not your dream job, or (in some cases) even in your regular line of work. And while it is true that unemployment insurance is drawn from a fund that is composed of obligatory payments from employers in the form of a tax on each employee they hire, the funds are rapidly running dry as a result of the huge number of layoffs. The feds are kicking in on the shortfall currently, but, given the situation, the states are going to have to raise the unemployment tax rate, and that doesn’t bode well for future jobs growth.

The examples you give are certainly accurate, but “poor people” are capable of committing fraud too. When a welfare/food stamps recipient is allowing her employed boyfriend to live with her and her kids, it’s fraud. When you’ve gone through a government-funded education program while receiving additional help in the form of cash assistance, food stamps, and childcare, and then quit your job after a month because your paycheck isn’t high enough, it’s fraud. None of these programs permits “laziness” in its eligibility guidelines. The real issue is that it’s both difficult, and politically risky, to measure laziness, so it becomes a non-issue in the administration of these programs.

There is a genuine need for these programs. But they were not designed to be permanent income providers for citizens of the United States. And, despite the “rules”, it’s readily apparent that, for a great number of people, they’ve become just that.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Russell]Hi UGgal,

I am practicing with lettuce in the shade.
Stawberries, (Much easier than I thought)
Tomatos( variety)
eggplant
peppers,
corn,4 staggered stands so far
pumpkins,Including some that can get pretty big.
Watermelon (3 kinds)
beets
Basil (harvest plenty and will keep planting)
Summer squash
Butternut squash(winter)
Honeydew
Cantaloupe
cucumbers
runner beans (just enough to practice/study with)

I very much want this delicious lettuce we have been getting to be available with ripe homegrown tomatos. We will see.

My other medium sized project has been starting blackberries. So far they are going gangbusters.

I think I am not much of an orchardist but there are some stone fruit trees and a few apples, that have been out there in the yard about 4 years now doing better than ever. Citrus planted at the same time is producing great oranges every winter through spring with the number of fruit increasing each year. Next year there should be a thousand oranges and grapefruits or more, some of which are something like gift quality.[/quote]

Awesome, Russell!! As for your final line, my address is……

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Russell]Hi UGgal,

I am practicing with lettuce in the shade.
Stawberries, (Much easier than I thought)
Tomatos( variety)
eggplant
peppers,
corn,4 staggered stands so far
pumpkins,Including some that can get pretty big.
Watermelon (3 kinds)
beets
Basil (harvest plenty and will keep planting)
Summer squash
Butternut squash(winter)
Honeydew
Cantaloupe
cucumbers
runner beans (just enough to practice/study with)

I very much want this delicious lettuce we have been getting to be available with ripe homegrown tomatos. We will see.

My other medium sized project has been starting blackberries. So far they are going gangbusters.

I think I am not much of an orchardist but there are some stone fruit trees and a few apples, that have been out there in the yard about 4 years now doing better than ever. Citrus planted at the same time is producing great oranges every winter through spring with the number of fruit increasing each year. Next year there should be a thousand oranges and grapefruits or more, some of which are something like gift quality.[/quote]

Awesome, Russell!! As for your final line, my address is……

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Russell]Hi UGgal,

I am practicing with lettuce in the shade.
Stawberries, (Much easier than I thought)
Tomatos( variety)
eggplant
peppers,
corn,4 staggered stands so far
pumpkins,Including some that can get pretty big.
Watermelon (3 kinds)
beets
Basil (harvest plenty and will keep planting)
Summer squash
Butternut squash(winter)
Honeydew
Cantaloupe
cucumbers
runner beans (just enough to practice/study with)

I very much want this delicious lettuce we have been getting to be available with ripe homegrown tomatos. We will see.

My other medium sized project has been starting blackberries. So far they are going gangbusters.

I think I am not much of an orchardist but there are some stone fruit trees and a few apples, that have been out there in the yard about 4 years now doing better than ever. Citrus planted at the same time is producing great oranges every winter through spring with the number of fruit increasing each year. Next year there should be a thousand oranges and grapefruits or more, some of which are something like gift quality.[/quote]

Awesome, Russell!! As for your final line, my address is……

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Russell]Hi UGgal,

I am practicing with lettuce in the shade.
Stawberries, (Much easier than I thought)
Tomatos( variety)
eggplant
peppers,
corn,4 staggered stands so far
pumpkins,Including some that can get pretty big.
Watermelon (3 kinds)
beets
Basil (harvest plenty and will keep planting)
Summer squash
Butternut squash(winter)
Honeydew
Cantaloupe
cucumbers
runner beans (just enough to practice/study with)

I very much want this delicious lettuce we have been getting to be available with ripe homegrown tomatos. We will see.

My other medium sized project has been starting blackberries. So far they are going gangbusters.

I think I am not much of an orchardist but there are some stone fruit trees and a few apples, that have been out there in the yard about 4 years now doing better than ever. Citrus planted at the same time is producing great oranges every winter through spring with the number of fruit increasing each year. Next year there should be a thousand oranges and grapefruits or more, some of which are something like gift quality.[/quote]

Awesome, Russell!! As for your final line, my address is……

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Russell]Hi UGgal,

I am practicing with lettuce in the shade.
Stawberries, (Much easier than I thought)
Tomatos( variety)
eggplant
peppers,
corn,4 staggered stands so far
pumpkins,Including some that can get pretty big.
Watermelon (3 kinds)
beets
Basil (harvest plenty and will keep planting)
Summer squash
Butternut squash(winter)
Honeydew
Cantaloupe
cucumbers
runner beans (just enough to practice/study with)

I very much want this delicious lettuce we have been getting to be available with ripe homegrown tomatos. We will see.

My other medium sized project has been starting blackberries. So far they are going gangbusters.

I think I am not much of an orchardist but there are some stone fruit trees and a few apples, that have been out there in the yard about 4 years now doing better than ever. Citrus planted at the same time is producing great oranges every winter through spring with the number of fruit increasing each year. Next year there should be a thousand oranges and grapefruits or more, some of which are something like gift quality.[/quote]

Awesome, Russell!! As for your final line, my address is……

[eavesdropper]

UCGal, you have succeeded admirably in making me feel both hungry and inadequate. However, I’ll get over it (the feeling of inadequacy, anyway), and enthusiastically applaud you. I am soooo impressed!

I don’t like gardening, but I engage in it because I like the results. Last summer, I turned about 200 square feet of concrete-hard rural Virginia pastureland into a perennial garden surrounding the porch of our house there. The ground is so hard that you need a full-size farm tractor to turn the earth and break it up (most of it is solid clay) – a rototiller can’t begin to do the job. Unfortunately, a full-size farm tractor can’t get close enough to the house, so it involved several weeks of really intense labor (sending my bulging spinal discs into full ruptured status), lots of mud, and the likelihood of future skin cancer.

However, I had almost instant gratification. The plants I put in grew and bloomed rapidly, and really made a difference. We can sit on the porch, in view of the Blue Ridge, and watch the visiting butterflies and hummingbirds. The best part is that they all came back this year, much larger than last, and I didn’t have to lift a finger.

Once I’m down there full-time, I hope to expand into vegetable and fruit
gardening. We have decent acreage, so we won’t have to evict the cows. However, if they ever legalize pot, all bets are off. I’m not hopeful that Social Security will be around to help with expenses, so I will have to use my assets wisely.

[eavesdropper]

UCGal, you have succeeded admirably in making me feel both hungry and inadequate. However, I’ll get over it (the feeling of inadequacy, anyway), and enthusiastically applaud you. I am soooo impressed!

I don’t like gardening, but I engage in it because I like the results. Last summer, I turned about 200 square feet of concrete-hard rural Virginia pastureland into a perennial garden surrounding the porch of our house there. The ground is so hard that you need a full-size farm tractor to turn the earth and break it up (most of it is solid clay) – a rototiller can’t begin to do the job. Unfortunately, a full-size farm tractor can’t get close enough to the house, so it involved several weeks of really intense labor (sending my bulging spinal discs into full ruptured status), lots of mud, and the likelihood of future skin cancer.

However, I had almost instant gratification. The plants I put in grew and bloomed rapidly, and really made a difference. We can sit on the porch, in view of the Blue Ridge, and watch the visiting butterflies and hummingbirds. The best part is that they all came back this year, much larger than last, and I didn’t have to lift a finger.

Once I’m down there full-time, I hope to expand into vegetable and fruit
gardening. We have decent acreage, so we won’t have to evict the cows. However, if they ever legalize pot, all bets are off. I’m not hopeful that Social Security will be around to help with expenses, so I will have to use my assets wisely.

[eavesdropper]

UCGal, you have succeeded admirably in making me feel both hungry and inadequate. However, I’ll get over it (the feeling of inadequacy, anyway), and enthusiastically applaud you. I am soooo impressed!

I don’t like gardening, but I engage in it because I like the results. Last summer, I turned about 200 square feet of concrete-hard rural Virginia pastureland into a perennial garden surrounding the porch of our house there. The ground is so hard that you need a full-size farm tractor to turn the earth and break it up (most of it is solid clay) – a rototiller can’t begin to do the job. Unfortunately, a full-size farm tractor can’t get close enough to the house, so it involved several weeks of really intense labor (sending my bulging spinal discs into full ruptured status), lots of mud, and the likelihood of future skin cancer.

However, I had almost instant gratification. The plants I put in grew and bloomed rapidly, and really made a difference. We can sit on the porch, in view of the Blue Ridge, and watch the visiting butterflies and hummingbirds. The best part is that they all came back this year, much larger than last, and I didn’t have to lift a finger.

Once I’m down there full-time, I hope to expand into vegetable and fruit
gardening. We have decent acreage, so we won’t have to evict the cows. However, if they ever legalize pot, all bets are off. I’m not hopeful that Social Security will be around to help with expenses, so I will have to use my assets wisely.

[eavesdropper]

UCGal, you have succeeded admirably in making me feel both hungry and inadequate. However, I’ll get over it (the feeling of inadequacy, anyway), and enthusiastically applaud you. I am soooo impressed!

I don’t like gardening, but I engage in it because I like the results. Last summer, I turned about 200 square feet of concrete-hard rural Virginia pastureland into a perennial garden surrounding the porch of our house there. The ground is so hard that you need a full-size farm tractor to turn the earth and break it up (most of it is solid clay) – a rototiller can’t begin to do the job. Unfortunately, a full-size farm tractor can’t get close enough to the house, so it involved several weeks of really intense labor (sending my bulging spinal discs into full ruptured status), lots of mud, and the likelihood of future skin cancer.

However, I had almost instant gratification. The plants I put in grew and bloomed rapidly, and really made a difference. We can sit on the porch, in view of the Blue Ridge, and watch the visiting butterflies and hummingbirds. The best part is that they all came back this year, much larger than last, and I didn’t have to lift a finger.

Once I’m down there full-time, I hope to expand into vegetable and fruit
gardening. We have decent acreage, so we won’t have to evict the cows. However, if they ever legalize pot, all bets are off. I’m not hopeful that Social Security will be around to help with expenses, so I will have to use my assets wisely.

[eavesdropper]

UCGal, you have succeeded admirably in making me feel both hungry and inadequate. However, I’ll get over it (the feeling of inadequacy, anyway), and enthusiastically applaud you. I am soooo impressed!

I don’t like gardening, but I engage in it because I like the results. Last summer, I turned about 200 square feet of concrete-hard rural Virginia pastureland into a perennial garden surrounding the porch of our house there. The ground is so hard that you need a full-size farm tractor to turn the earth and break it up (most of it is solid clay) – a rototiller can’t begin to do the job. Unfortunately, a full-size farm tractor can’t get close enough to the house, so it involved several weeks of really intense labor (sending my bulging spinal discs into full ruptured status), lots of mud, and the likelihood of future skin cancer.

However, I had almost instant gratification. The plants I put in grew and bloomed rapidly, and really made a difference. We can sit on the porch, in view of the Blue Ridge, and watch the visiting butterflies and hummingbirds. The best part is that they all came back this year, much larger than last, and I didn’t have to lift a finger.

Once I’m down there full-time, I hope to expand into vegetable and fruit
gardening. We have decent acreage, so we won’t have to evict the cows. However, if they ever legalize pot, all bets are off. I’m not hopeful that Social Security will be around to help with expenses, so I will have to use my assets wisely.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]So going forward are price declines a reasonably sure thing?

Best guess?[/quote]

Housing prices? I believe that they will be a fact of life for at least 2 or 3 more years in the DC area where I live. Unfortunately, supplies of bank-owned properties in many of our areas have swollen to a really uncomfortable point, and what I feared most has come to pass: the banks are listing them at prices 25% or more below comps. This is following market-driven drops of 20 – 30% or more per year since early 2008. We’re starting to see more people of all income levels simply ceasing to pay their mortgages, and waiting for the banks to come after them. So supplies of bank-owned properties will continue to increase for the foreseeable future.

We downsized in 2008 in an effort to avoid being stuck with the large family abode in our 60s, and trying to sell it at the same time as the rest of the boomers who bought the majority of them. We were dealing with sellers who hadn’t gotten the memo about the real estate bust, and had to really fight to get a realistic price on what we bought (we couldn’t afford to rent, tax-wise). We knew we’d experience a drop, but it’s alarming how much and how fast – and it’s due primarily to increases in supplies of bank-owned properties. For now, we’re okay: no plans to sell for at least another 10 years. But our neighbors who need to move for work, or unavoidable personal issues, are really screwed.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]So going forward are price declines a reasonably sure thing?

Best guess?[/quote]

Housing prices? I believe that they will be a fact of life for at least 2 or 3 more years in the DC area where I live. Unfortunately, supplies of bank-owned properties in many of our areas have swollen to a really uncomfortable point, and what I feared most has come to pass: the banks are listing them at prices 25% or more below comps. This is following market-driven drops of 20 – 30% or more per year since early 2008. We’re starting to see more people of all income levels simply ceasing to pay their mortgages, and waiting for the banks to come after them. So supplies of bank-owned properties will continue to increase for the foreseeable future.

We downsized in 2008 in an effort to avoid being stuck with the large family abode in our 60s, and trying to sell it at the same time as the rest of the boomers who bought the majority of them. We were dealing with sellers who hadn’t gotten the memo about the real estate bust, and had to really fight to get a realistic price on what we bought (we couldn’t afford to rent, tax-wise). We knew we’d experience a drop, but it’s alarming how much and how fast – and it’s due primarily to increases in supplies of bank-owned properties. For now, we’re okay: no plans to sell for at least another 10 years. But our neighbors who need to move for work, or unavoidable personal issues, are really screwed.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]So going forward are price declines a reasonably sure thing?

Best guess?[/quote]

Housing prices? I believe that they will be a fact of life for at least 2 or 3 more years in the DC area where I live. Unfortunately, supplies of bank-owned properties in many of our areas have swollen to a really uncomfortable point, and what I feared most has come to pass: the banks are listing them at prices 25% or more below comps. This is following market-driven drops of 20 – 30% or more per year since early 2008. We’re starting to see more people of all income levels simply ceasing to pay their mortgages, and waiting for the banks to come after them. So supplies of bank-owned properties will continue to increase for the foreseeable future.

We downsized in 2008 in an effort to avoid being stuck with the large family abode in our 60s, and trying to sell it at the same time as the rest of the boomers who bought the majority of them. We were dealing with sellers who hadn’t gotten the memo about the real estate bust, and had to really fight to get a realistic price on what we bought (we couldn’t afford to rent, tax-wise). We knew we’d experience a drop, but it’s alarming how much and how fast – and it’s due primarily to increases in supplies of bank-owned properties. For now, we’re okay: no plans to sell for at least another 10 years. But our neighbors who need to move for work, or unavoidable personal issues, are really screwed.

[Author]

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