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CA renter
ParticipantHow about the fine arts or sports? Most people engage in the arts or play sports because the feel passionate about it and enjoy it more than almost anything else. But, some are paid many millions of dollars when they play or act or paint or sculpt. Is it work?
ParticipantFor some people, solving problems is a hobby (puzzles, figuring out solutions to problems online, helping friend in need, etc.). Take crowdsourcing, for example. How much would you have had to pay an individual (or team of individuals) to solve the problems now being solved for free online?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing
These people love the challenge, and are often more than willing to do it for free. Is it work?
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]some work in the home is more valuable than other work, isn;t it? or is it all one flat rate?
for instance, im in charge of all vomit, always have been? isnt that charged out ata higher rate?i hate cleaning vomit.
also i ahve always been in charge of everything toilet related. i once almost threw up myself after a particularly horrible toilet event. but i plunged forward. how much is that worth? same as like, dusting? a year of dusting? a day?
i was also in charge of clipping infant fingernails because for some reason it freaked my wife out. hwoever, i completely enjoyed it. not sure why? is it valued at what she wouldve paid someone to do it because it was so weirdly freaky to her to cut her childrens little tiny nails, or shoudl it be billed out at zero, because for me it was a hoot?
work outside the home is extremely easy to value; as there is a wage attached to it…[/quote]
For some people, having sex is something worth paying for. For others, it is work, and it’s something that they expect to be paid for…sometimes, they expect to make *a lot* of money for having sex.
Is it work?
Participant[quote=CA renter]
You were clear about the fact that you don’t value work done in the home (which does have a monetary value, since paying for all of these services would cost as a full-time employee would make, if not more…and it’s tax-free, to boot!) as much as you value wage-earning. In doing so, you were clearly showing your bias regarding your perceived imbalances in the work done by men vs. women.
Suffice it to say, we disagree quite a bit regarding this topic.[/quote]
Was going to correct this, but scaredy’s post prevented me from doing so. 😉
This should read: paying for all of these services would cost as much as a full-time employee would make…
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]i guess i just value cleanliness at all times very very low. why clean all the time? just clean when it gets really grosss.
i ahve been accused of just taking time to relax when i go to costco to buya bunch of crap.[/quote]
This is probably where a lot of the disagreement and resentment come from in many marriages. Spouses will often disagree about the value of the work done by the other spouse. They will probably always value what they do as being “worth more” than what their spouse does…and it’s probably true, based on each individual’s perspective.
Participant[quote=Blogstar]Car renter the more hours was referring strictly to out of home work, I should have been more clear but I thought going on to talk about domestic work as separate made it clear enough.
As far as how much stay at home people men and women work, I am going to believe my lying eyes not the results of self reporting based studies. I can call taking my kids to soccer practice and the library work, Do you call those things work? do the people in the survey? Paying bills and shopping might be work but the only stress or risk is boredom ….I would rate those at about .25 per hour of any kind of real work at most. Putting kids in child watch at the gym and doing a few exercise classes work? Well yeah because its the spouse fault we need to stay so relaxed and amazing looking. I used myself as and example with some extra bs thrown in there but I could make similar comments about all the sahparents including those homeschooling. I run into lots of them at the gym!
As a SAHD I volunteer in my kid’s classes. In one case I help the teacher with small reading groups about 5 kids. The teacher who is about my age is dealing with 25 something kids all the curriculum, the parents, the volunteers and the administration. She has a real job not me. Has a real job like working people do. MY hour doesn’t count like hers does. Other times I count laps while kids jog….same thing , it’s not the same as a job.
From a work basis what gets done at home is important but very light. There are issues with staying at home to consider like lack of prestige and risk of not being able to get a career on track again and other things but it is a choice and calculated risk for most of us. The fact that you can’t get fired from staying at home or have to deal with other work place problems and risks are factors too.
In no way am I saying you are covering for anything in your own home, I am saying you are biased when you state these imbalances towards women as being norms.
On the whole If there is a difference in work being done, or say important value added, in most households it’s splitting hairs, or over reasonable time it evens out. I don’t take sides over split hairs. UCgal painted the true picture.[/quote]
You were clear about the fact that you don’t value work done in the home (which does have a monetary value, since paying for all of these services would cost as a full-time employee would make, if not more…and it’s tax-free, to boot!) as much as you value wage-earning. In doing so, you were clearly showing your bias regarding your perceived imbalances in the work done by men vs. women.
Suffice it to say, we disagree quite a bit regarding this topic.
October 19, 2014 at 8:40 PM in reply to: The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen #779000Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.
i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they’re barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit…and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.
come on…
ah, i guess it’s ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation[/quote]
Preach it, scaredy!
I’d add that colleges/universities should not be focusing so much of their money on athletics (especially if they’re a net drain on university finances) if students are not able to get all the classes they need. ALL resources should be dedicated to academics first, IMO.
Participant[quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=scaredyclassic]I know guys who work super hard at home and at work and are seen as basically not team player contributors.
Then post divorce the ex wives can complain of the tribulations of being a single mom while their former husband’s continue to do tons of shit.
Females believe their contributions are denigrated by men and society.
Guys feel the same[/quote]
I’ve seen two couples like this, where the husbands work outside of the home, then come home and help the kids with homework and various activities, do housework, etc…and the wives are not appreciative.
OTOH, I’ve seen far, far more couples where the men only work outside of the home and expect their wives to do almost everything else WRT the house and children, etc. Doesn’t matter how uneven the workload is (when the wives have far more work), the men feel perfectly justified in leaving their responsibilities at the door and living life as if income-earning should be their only contribution to their family’s well-being. How njtosd described her grandfather’s life is very similar to how many men behaved. Is it really any wonder why so many women were miserable in their marriages? Do you honestly not get why they were unhappy and why some might have chosen to “find themselves” after the kids had grown?[/quote]
That’s not is happening by and large. Married men work more hours than married women. Often times the work is more dangerous and physically demanding. And bearing and caring for young children is incredibly demanding, both physically and emotionally. Now that we have a broad mix of work /stay at home gender designs What I see is that the person who works less does more domestic stuff than the longer harder working person. If they work similar amounts domestic chores are still usually shared along some pretty traditional gender lines or there is a lot of overlap but it’s not often an unbalanced situation. It has always been that way and always will be.
You just want to make the case that men are worse at being partners for women than the other way around and it’s a crock. But no one ever changes.[/quote]Right there, you are exposing your bias. When you claim that men “work more hours” you’re implying that domestic chores don’t count as work. The statistics show the opposite from what you’re saying.
“A new study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development shows that across the developed world, women do far more of the unpaid domestic work that keeps households running, even when they’re also putting in many hours at work. Men, it’s true, tend to put in more hours at jobs than women do, but when you add together the total number of hours of work, both paid and unpaid, women worked more than men in all but a handful of the developed countries the OECD included in its analysis.”
And I would argue that the imbalance was far worse 30-50 years ago…when men thought that their only contribution should be wage-earning. All too often, they’d just go to work, come home, kick their feet up on their favorite ottoman, and wait for the woman to bring them their drinks and serve them dinner (and look attractive while doing all of this, and be ready for sex where his “needs” were of primary importance). All the while, the women were expected to do all of the child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, shopping, attend to all of their family care/social duties, etc., which is more than a full-time job when you have a family. These women often had NO time off, much less nights and weekends where somebody else would tend to all their needs. These are the women who would divorce later in life because they wanted to “find themselves.” It’s particularly true when they were married to men who provided zero emotional support for their wives throughout their marriages because they believed that “women have (female) friends for that.”
Having said that, men have come a long, long way in the past couple of decades. We see more men at the parks, picking up kids from school, in the grocery stores, etc. And while the chore/work gap is definitely closing and becoming more balanced, we’re still not there, yet.
And, Russ, you’re making the mistake of implying that I’m talking about my own personal situation or “speaking for my gender.” That’s not the case. Before the housing bubble (and this is why I clued into the housing bubble so early in the first place), I studied family formation trends and their effects on the economy. What I’m stating comes from research, not personal opinion.
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]
women spend more energy worrying about children as a general rule. this is extrmely tiring and may lead them to think their contribution is therefore greater. im actually kind fo serious about this. it might be the way we’re wired. it’s exhausting to be so concerned. men probaly arent as worried abecause genetically they fiugure they’ll just make another litter.
they did some study about how men let kids wander further in department stores thna women without checking ont hem…men just arent as watchful
i’d be tired too if i worreied about m y kids liek i see women fret about theirs. i just never worried about them that much. if they’re sick i can sleep fine my wife has to stay up to be able tow ake me up promptly if someone throws up so i can clean it…[/quote]
This is true. Women are far more biologically invested in their children than men are. That’s why women are always the ones chiding their children to “be careful” and “come down from that tree…you’re going to get hurt.” Men can always make more babies; there is no investment from them when it comes to the actual process of making a baby. Men can have a thousand babies and not know of a single one. Women, unless they are in a coma of some sort, intimately know about every single child she bears. Women also have a very limited window during which she can have a baby, and with the exception of twins, triplets, etc., she can only have one at a time, which makes each child far more valuable to her. There are biological changes to a woman’s body when she has children that don’t happen to men. This is why mothers tend to be more neurotic parents than fathers, IMO.
I would also argue that most women have higher standards for cleanliness than men do. While a husband might not value the hours of work a woman invests in caring for a home (they’re often oblivious regarding the amount of work involved), she feels like she’s contributing a great deal.
October 19, 2014 at 1:28 AM in reply to: The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen #778957ParticipantThank you very much for your insights, BG. We were just talking to some other parents whose kids are in the university system and some whose kids have recently graduated about these issues. You’re right, unfortunately.
It’s a very different world, both at the college and at the professional/career level, than what you and I experienced in our youth. Not good changes, BTW.
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]Wait i meant 20 percent bad to good ration.
And 20 percent vague complaining to positive statements. Wait, no one gets that do they?[/quote]
Yes, they do! 🙂
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]I know guys who work super hard at home and at work and are seen as basically not team player contributors.
Then post divorce the ex wives can complain of the tribulations of being a single mom while their former husband’s continue to do tons of shit.
Females believe their contributions are denigrated by men and society.
Guys feel the same[/quote]
I’ve seen two couples like this, where the husbands work outside of the home, then come home and help the kids with homework and various activities, do housework, etc…and the wives are not appreciative.
OTOH, I’ve seen far, far more couples where the men only work outside of the home and expect their wives to do almost everything else WRT the house and children, etc. Doesn’t matter how uneven the workload is (when the wives have far more work), the men feel perfectly justified in leaving their responsibilities at the door and living life as if income-earning should be their only contribution to their family’s well-being. How njtosd described her grandfather’s life is very similar to how many men behaved. Is it really any wonder why so many women were miserable in their marriages? Do you honestly not get why they were unhappy and why some might have chosen to “find themselves” after the kids had grown?
Participant[quote=Blogstar]I am sorry CArenter, A family woman claiming to need escape from being “tired of living for other people” is very much playing the victim. Nobody made her get married to that sperm donor and have babies. OMG. I think people would have to have other reasons, selfish or not, because this excuse is shameful. Better to just say anything else as a reason.
I can’t speak to your wedding vows but “tired of living for other people” isn’t part of most couples agreements.
I do , solemnly swear that unless I get tired of living for other people…blah , blah blah…[/quote]
Russ, I’m talking about what *other* women say about the reasons for their divorces. Personally, my DH is my very best friend in the world. There is nobody on this planet that I would rather spend my time with. He is also perfectly capable of talking about feelings, if need be. His ability to communicate is one of the many reasons I married him.
That being said, there are many men out there who “fake it” until they are married (just like men will claim that women fake something until they get married). There are many men who act as though they care about their GF’s feelings, and act as though there is nothing more important than their loving relationship, until that wedding ring is on. I’ve seen this in multiple situations.
As you should know, it’s impossible to grasp how much work and sacrifice is involved when a couple decides to have children and form a family. Some people jump right into their new roles and love every minute of it, but others are blown away by the level of responsibility and work that are required to run a household and nurture a healthy family. If one parent doesn’t participate, the other spouse is left with a TON of work that very few would be willing to sign on for if they could foresee what they were getting into when they got married and had kids.
All too often in these situations, a woman expects to marry a *partner* in the marriage, but ends up with someone who thinks that life should continue as if they (men only, of course) were single. While a man might work 8-10 hours/day, M-F, the woman is working 24 hours/day, all week long…especially when the children are little. If the husband takes her work for granted, especially if he acts as though he’s doing her a favor by “letting” her work in the home, then there is bound to be some major resentment. And if the man thinks that his hobbies, interests, activities, etc. will continue as though nothing has changed, then the wife is likely to resent it.
I think you need to reevaluate your perspective, too, since you seem to think that men are more often the “victims” of marriage.
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]It was a typo! Jeez. A guy can’t get a break here.[/quote]
NO!!!
😉
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