[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]
ZK, the examples I’ve mentioned were absolutely based on the fact that these parents didn’t want their boys to be “contaminated” by anything remotely feminine. They made it very clear why they didn’t want their sons to sit with girls or, in the case of the infant boy, to wear pastel clothing. They didn’t beat around the bush at all. I just can’t type out the conversations and social history in a post here, for brevity’s sake.

[/quote]
Later in this post you say I’m wearing a blindfold while you’re able to see things others can’t. If anybody ever told me very clearly that they didn’t want their sons to be contaminated by femininity, I obviously would’ve noticed it. Even if I was wearing a blindfold. But nobody ever has. Nobody I’ve ever known has even hinted at such a thing nor, to my knowledge, even heard of such a thing. If this fear of contamination is so blatant, everybody could see it. How is it that only you and others like you with your special observational powers can see it because others are “blinded by the systemic nature of it,” if it’s so blatant and explicit? You can’t have it both ways. On the one hand, you say you’re sure of the reason because it’s explicit, and on the other, you say that only you can see it because you’re so perceptive of it. Which is it?

[quote=CA renter]
And the segregation I’m talking about happens at a very early age — infancy, in some cases. I’m not talking about teenagers who are segregated by their parents because the parents are worried about rape, etc. At that stage, the kids are already reintegrating themselves because they are going through puberty and want to have sex with one another. The problem is that this is happening after years of brainwashing and segregation that highlight and exacerbate the differences between the genders and result in people objectifying each other because they don’t know how to relate in a healthy and holistic way. Kids should never be segregated in the first place, IMO; not by gender, race, age, religion, etc., because this amplifies the worst in each group, whereas integration balances things out because people can learn from one another and relate with one another in a more natural way.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree that kids shouldn’t be segregated on purpose. Only to the natural degree that occurs when boys do boy things and girls do girl things. And I do agree that segregation happens more than it used to and more than it should, although I don’t think it happens nearly to the extent that you do. What I disagree with is why it occurs. Your only evidence of why it occurs is stories of people you know, stories where “the ultimate goal in every case is to keep their sons from becoming “feminized.” I’ve been hanging around parents for the last 15+ years. No parent I’ve ever known has even once mentioned such a fear. Why is that? What kind of blindfold would prevent me from hearing them say that? Why have you heard so many stories like that, and I’ve never heard one?

Has anybody else on this forum ever heard of such a thing? If so, has it been more than once?

Also, you never answered this question: Why would boys hanging around girls feminize the boys?

[quote=CA renter]
it is 100% true that my experience with my mother affected how I see the world. She opened up my eyes to the realities of sexism and misogyny at a very early age because she was so blatant about it. Because of this, I see sexism and misogyny when other people don’t because they are blinded by the systemic nature of it.
[/quote]
The fact that you can look at your childhood, which included this:.

“My own mother told me and my sister all the time that she wished so badly for a son instead of the daughters she got because boys and men were so powerful. Once I got married, she shoved me out of the way to get to my husband whom she insisted on calling “son,” instead of calling him by his name.”

and not see that it’s your perception that is skewed and not “other people’s” is indicative of the lack of your own self-awareness.
[quote=CA renter]
It is so accepted, and so much a part of our culture and society, that they don’t even notice it. I may be walking around with sexism/misogyny glasses that enable me to see sexism in our society, but you’re wearing a blindfold.
[/quote]
I didn’t call them “sexism/misogyny glasses.” I never mentioned sexism. You’ve just tried to change the entire argument. Sexism and misogyny are not the same thing.

[quote=CA renter]

You seem to think that sexism and misogyny don’t really exist to a large extent.
[/quote]
I never said that. And, it’s not true. I think there is lot of sexism in our society. I’m very much a feminist, because I do think there’s a lot of sexism.

I think there’s some misogyny, maybe even a lot. But certainly nowhere near the amount of misogyny you think there is. And I don’t think gender separation of children is a result of misogyny.

[quote=CA renter]

I can prove you wrong in a single instant. Let’s consider for a moment three to five of the most insulting names you can call a boy. (You can re-read the original post on this thread, for starters.) What do you think those terms might be? Please list them here.

After that, consider the top three to five most insulting terms for females, and list those here.

What patterns do you notice?

[/quote]

You really think the fact that female insults are sex-specific while male insults are not is “proof” that misogyny exists “to a large extent?” If that’s all the “proof” you need, then it’s no wonder you overestimate it.[/quote]

No, you wouldn’t necessarily have noticed it. Even your argument about “boys’ activities” and “girls’ activities” shows that you don’t see it. Do you honestly think that the orientation of our reproductive organs makes us more inclined to want to shop or get our nails done or play/watch football or go fishing or play golf? Really? What you see as “natural” gender-based behavior is due almost entirely to socialization, and it’s being done by people who (sometimes inadvertently, like you might be doing with your own kids) reinforce gender stereotypes by encouraging their kids to participate in certain types of events and activities while discouraging them from participating in other events and activities.

I’ve seen it as a parent and as a teacher. There have been many occasions where I’ve witnessed a parent or teacher or aide guide a student, or group of students, toward or away from a particular activity based solely on the children’s gender. I’ve seen pink paper literally ripped out of a boy’s hands while doing some artwork because “boys don’t like pink, they like blue.” This happens in big and small ways, all day long, every day. It might seem subtle to you, which is probably why you don’t notice it, but it’s sending a very strong message to these kids and to the adults around them. Other parents, teachers, and students/children notice it and conform to what they are told is the “right” behavior for a particular gender. For the most part, this is not natural behavior; it’s socialized.

Just look at what Target went through recently with their gender/color-coded toys. They were guiding children and adults to the “correct” toys for a child’s gender instead of letting kids pick the toys that they would prefer to play with. And why in the hell do we need pink Legos or pink Nerf guns? There is nothing gender-specific in the original toys, so why market exclusively to one gender? We all know that girls will buy “boy’s” toys, but boys will most definitely not be buying pink Legos and Nerf guns unless they have VERY brave, progressive parents.

As for the insults, the worst insults for BOTH genders tend to be sex/gender-specific. Think about the worst ones for both sexes and write them down, then look for a pattern. See? You might think that you’re capable of noticing obvious examples of sexism/misogyny, but even with this simple example, you’ve missed it entirely.

[CA renter]

ZK, the examples I’ve mentioned were absolutely based on the fact that these parents didn’t want their boys to be “contaminated” by anything remotely feminine. They made it very clear why they didn’t want their sons to sit with girls or, in the case of the infant boy, to wear pastel clothing. They didn’t beat around the bush at all. I just can’t type out the conversations and social history in a post here, for brevity’s sake.

And the segregation I’m talking about happens at a very early age — infancy, in some cases. I’m not talking about teenagers who are segregated by their parents because the parents are worried about rape, etc. At that stage, the kids are already reintegrating themselves because they are going through puberty and want to have sex with one another. The problem is that this is happening after years of brainwashing and segregation that highlight and exacerbate the differences between the genders and result in people objectifying each other because they don’t know how to relate in a healthy and holistic way. Kids should never be segregated in the first place, IMO; not by gender, race, age, religion, etc., because this amplifies the worst in each group, whereas integration balances things out because people can learn from one another and relate with one another in a more natural way.

it is 100% true that my experience with my mother affected how I see the world. She opened up my eyes to the realities of sexism and misogyny at a very early age because she was so blatant about it. Because of this, I see sexism and misogyny when other people don’t because they are blinded by the systemic nature of it. It is so accepted, and so much a part of our culture and society, that they don’t even notice it. I may be walking around with sexism/misogyny glasses that enable me to see sexism in our society, but you’re wearing a blindfold.

You seem to think that sexism and misogyny don’t really exist to a large extent. I can prove you wrong in a single instant. Let’s consider for a moment three to five of the most insulting names you can call a boy. (You can re-read the original post on this thread, for starters.) What do you think those terms might be? Please list them here.

After that, consider the top three to five most insulting terms for females, and list those here.

What patterns do you notice?

[CA renter]

[quote=harvey][quote=Jazzman]
Socialism isn’t just an economic system though; […][/quote]

Yes, that’s been the trend since Marx’s time: Every time socialism fails, someone will redefine it an attempt to match what is actually working. These days that definition is no where close to what Marx promoted.[/quote]

There are often multiple definitions and belief systems that revolve around a single term or idea. Even full-fledged Marxist socialists disagree among themselves. You need to broaden your perspective and read more about the different theories, Pri. Your high school textbook from that one Social Studies class doesn’t come anywhere close to covering the topic — it barely scratches the surface.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]You think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow![/quote]

What if we changed it to say this:

“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “racist”? Wow!

What, exactly, are you surprised by? That it appears as though boys and girls are more segregated today than when we were growing up; or that, if true, it would be considered misogynistic?[/quote]

That doesn’t even make sense. That analogy would only hold water if someone had said that lack of interracial interaction was due to blacks hating whites and someone else said:

“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you say it’s because blacks hate whites? Wow!”

See, because that would be taking issue with laying the blame for the lack of interaction on one side. You blamed misogyny, and Russ took issue with it. The speaker above blamed blacks’ hate for whites. To take issue with that seems like a valid, proper, basically required response.[/quote]

My response to Brian should make clear my position on this. In the vast majority of cases that we’ve seen and experienced, the segregation is being done to prevent the “feminization” of boys; it’s not done to prevent the girls from becoming too masculine. The girls are the ones who are being excluded in almost every case.

Look at scaredy’s posts about his sons. That is what we see on a daily basis — the notion that females are “screwed up” and neurotic, and that boys need to be protected from that.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=CA renter]

No, but you’ve got to admit that the group who has held power over the other throughout human history (even to this day) might be more inclined to perpetuate the actions, behaviors, and beliefs that are systemic in our global society.[/quote]

CAr, power, wealth and privilege can accumulate within race. So with regard to race, I agree with you.

But, as a whole, men have sons and daughters equally. I don’t see a misoginistic inter-generational transfer of power.
Math wise, for your argument to work, women would have to pass on misoginy as much as men.[/quote]

Power, wealth, and privilege accumulate within gender, too. Most of the women who occupy the “wealthiest women” lists got their money from either their husbands (deceased or ex), or their fathers. Only 5% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are women.

And women absolutely do pass on the misogyny. You have no idea how many times I’ve heard women say:

“I have such a GREAT relationship with my son. There is nothing like the relationship between a mother and her son. Boys are just so special.”

It’s like having boys makes women feel like they’ve gained access to the “penis club,” and since women have had to compete for men throughout history (because men — either husbands or sons — were key to their survival), they exclude other women from this “club” every chance they get. Women with sons tend to associate with one another, to the exclusion of women with girls.

And women who have both sons and daughters will often go on and on about their sons, while largely skipping over the importance of their daughters, or just mention the girls as a side story or talk about how they like to go shopping together — but rarely talk about their girls’ achievements in the same way they do their sons’ achievements, even when the daughters are more accomplished. I’ve had women tell me, point blank, that they don’t really like their daughters, but they love their sons because of this supposed “mother and son” relationship. I used to think that Freud was off his rocker, until I started noticing these behaviors. It’s creepy.

My own mother told me and my sister all the time that she wished so badly for a son instead of the daughters she got because boys and men were so powerful. Once I got married, she shoved me out of the way to get to my husband whom she insisted on calling “son,” instead of calling him by his name. This male-worship is not uncommon among women. My MIL is the same way. Every time when I was pregnant, she would tell me how much she hoped for a grandson, and was clearly disappointed when we kept having girls. My own mother did the same thing, too.

The push to segregate often involves both the mothers and the fathers, with the fathers spending all their time on “boys’ activities” with their sons, and the mothers dragging their daughters around to shopping malls and nail parlors. All too often, the family refuses to socialize together because they don’t want to mix the genders together. I kid you not.

But the ultimate goal in every case is to keep their sons from becoming “feminized.” One time, when we went out to eat with another family who had both a son and daughter, the father tried to insist that the boy sit with the adults so that he wouldn’t have to sit with the girls. I had another mother insist that she wouldn’t dress her son in pastel blue outfits because they were “too girly,” so she would dress him in plain white onesies with dark blue pants. If a parent has a new baby, and it’s a boy, all you hear is “my son…my son…my son…my boy…my boy.” When people have a daughter, they tend not to mention the gender as often, usually just referring to gender when it would seem unnatural to do otherwise.

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]In general whatever happens it’s a guys fault.[/quote]

No, but you’ve got to admit that the group who has held power over the other throughout human history (even to this day) might be more inclined to perpetuate the actions, behaviors, and beliefs that are systemic in our global society.

[CA renter]

[quote=all]A group of 8-11y.o. boys are playing street soccer. An 8yo commits a foul (looked like fair tackle to me, but never mind) on an 11yo. The 11yo goes into the house to complain to his mother, who in turn comes out to demand an apology for his 11yo son from the 8yo.

The way I see it, there is a big b*tch and a little b*tch in the story, and the big b*tch is doing no favor to the little b*tch, who is asking to get punished by his peers. I told my son he is not allowed to play soccer with the 11yo, or to complain to me if loses the ball because he sucks at the game.[/quote]

I’ve seen fathers do the same thing. It’s not gender-based, IMHO.

But I agree that kids should be left to sort things out for themselves, for the most part.

[CA renter]

[quote=njtosd]

CA Renter – don’t you have a group of women you like to hang around with? Book club (or as my husband calls it, drinking club), hiking group, bunko, whatever?. I’m perfectly comfortable hanging out with mixed groups, or even groups of men (my profession is becoming more mixed, but I was the token female when I started), but I am most at ease with a group of female friends (and these days, frankly, female friends who are also moms). I feel like it’s a matter of common experience. I don’t see misogyny.[/quote]

I have female friends, but we either hang out in mixed-gender groups, or spend time one-on-one, as I do with some of my male friends. I have never in my life spent time with an all-female group where men were intentionally excluded. Some of my female friends do hang out in groups like this, and they have invited me to join them, but I don’t hang out in groups that exclude others (whether it’s based on gender, gender preference, race, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, age, physical ability, etc.), so I always politely decline the invitation.

I’ve always enjoyed people who come from different backgrounds and who bring different perspectives to the table. Age is another big one where I think people are missing the boat; older people bring a wealth of knowledge and experience with them, but many people tend to exclude them because they “aren’t cool.” My DH and I have friends who range in age from young adulthood to people in their 80s and 90s. There is only one trait that I will use to exclude others, and that is if someone is of bad character/not a good person — a person who seeks to exploit or take advantage of others, who is inconsiderate of others, or who looks down on those who might be in a less advantageous position in life.

As for having common experience, I’ve often found that I have more in common with men than with women. Along the same lines, over half of my closest female friends are childless; some married, some single. Perhaps it’s because I don’t really focus on the day-to-day personal stuff in conversation. I like to talk about issues like we do here on Piggington’s (a perfect example of the type of group I like to hang out with in real life, which is why I’ve spent over a decade here and on other similar sites). Even my conversations with my DH tend to be more like the conversations we have here.

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar]You think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow![/quote]

What if we changed it to say this:

“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “racist”? Wow!

What, exactly, are you surprised by? That it appears as though boys and girls are more segregated today than when we were growing up; or that, if true, it would be considered misogynistic?

[CA renter]

Is our society becoming even more misogynistic these days? Back when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, we had fully mixed-gender groups of friends. I don’t ever remember a single instance when boys and girls were segregated from one another. Maybe it’s just my personality (not “girly”) and/or the groups of friends I’ve associated with over the years, but this was my experience in different regions, and in different social settings (different neighborhoods, different schools, even different countries).

We now have three daughters and have noticed that the boys and girls in our neighborhood and other social groups have become EXTREMELY segregated. Worst of all, we’ve noticed that it’s the parents who are not only encouraging this, but are forcing this on their children.

Is this a new trend, or is it a San Diego thing? Again, I’m from L.A., and we just didn’t have this sort of thing, but when I moved to SD, I noticed it even among our married friends. When we would all get together, the men would peel off from the women, and vice-versa. It was so obvious and deliberate, we just stopped hanging out with those people. Now, my DH and I are watching this situation with our kids, and it’s making us very uncomfortable.

Doe anyone actually think this is healthy for our kids? What would we be saying about this if we were talking about race or ethnicity? Why is gender the only category where discrimination and segregation are not only condoned, but encouraged? Why would anybody think this is okay?

[CA renter]

Wish they had a better warning system so they could just give people a heads-up, maybe give them an extra 24 hours or so. It was odd how quickly this went from a tropical storm to a massive hurricane in what felt like just a few hours.

I feel so badly for the people in Mexico who are in the direct path of this hurricane. We had some friends who were in Mexico last year when the Cat 3 hurricane hit, and they said the roof was being pulled up, and water was coming in everywhere. I can’t imagine what a Cat 5 would be like.

[CA renter]

[quote=outtamojo]

Maybe its the boobs I’m growing in middle age but I find myself preferring the company of women friends nowadays. I find myself not liking anymore to get together with a bunch of guys.[/quote]

Maybe it’s because you’ve been around long enough and seen enough to realize that women tend to be better friends. Guys don’t want to be around other guys when they’re having difficulties in life, at least not for long. Women, OTOH, will give you a shoulder to cry on, will bring you food when you’re too sick or depressed to get out of bed, will wipe your butt and give you sponge baths when you’re unable to do it for yourself. Men tend to be less inclined to make personal sacrifices for others, especially if it’s a long-term commitment, though there are always exceptions on both sides.

Men? They generally don’t bond directly with one another like women do. Men bond through third party objects or hobbies like watching football or fishing or golfing, etc. It’s just different.

OTOH, men do tend to be less neurotic, so scaredy has something there. But the #1 reason that “real” men (according to scaredy’s definition) don’t like to hang around women is because men are always jostling for power, and women have historically been the less powerful sex. That’s why being called a “bitch” or a “p*s*y” is a problem for men, but being called a “d**k” doesn’t really mean much to a woman.

[CA renter]

[quote=doofrat][quote=outtamojo]He does socialize with all kinds, including girls. On reflection, I think overall he is an ok kid. But you know, I just realized that being a parent will never stop and just because someone young may be “amazing” now doesn’t guarantee they will be the same later on in life. The hopelessness of it all has sapped my mojo :)[/quote]

Outtamojo, you’ve got the right attitude about it, you’re keeping an open mind, and following up on this. Where it becomes an issue is when a parent or administrator ignores the issue or makes excuses; then they just become an enabler. I don’t have kids, but I’d like to think I’d approach it the same way you’ve been.[/quote]

+1

I meant to add some more to my response because my post might have come off as a bit more harsh than intended…

You did an excellent job, outtamojo, and the fact that you gave the father your phone number and assured him that you would take care of things indicates good judgment and character on your part. Your kid is trying to navigate the hell of junior high school where kids are all trying to find their place in the social pecking order, all while the hormones are raging and the growth of their physical bodies starts to outpace the growth and maturity of their minds.

Parenting is always going to be one of the most complicated endeavors we’ll ever experience, and we are all just trying to do our best, with most of us having to learn on the fly. Keep up the good work! 🙂

[CA renter]

The drive to emphasize a person’s “masculinity” by engaging in rude or offensive behavior is interesting. Some of the most confident and masculine men I’ve ever known were absolutely not trash-talkers; they were kind, considerate, well-spoken people who knew when to be considerate, and also knew when to get aggressive with bullies.

For whatever it’s worth, teach your son to keep the “yo mama” jokes to himself when around African-Americans. I attended a junior high school in L.A. where a majority of the students were bused in from downtown, so we had a student population that was majority African-American. Whenever a kid dared to say the words, “yo mama,” it was a sure bet that he was about to have his ass kicked from here to Mississippi. It was serious business and, oftentimes, multiple other kids would join in the beatings as other students would link arms and form concentric rings around the fights so that the administrators and teachers couldn’t intervene.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that your son might think he’s pretty smart, but if he utters the wrong words in front of the wrong people, it could easily get ugly.

The other kid was fully justified in telling his parents about your kid’s behavior. There are a whole lot of people in the world who would not be okay with these comments, even if they were made “in jest.”

It’s good that you’re concerned about it, and I know that you want to do the right by your kid. As someone already mentioned above, we no longer live in a society where the wife-beating asshole wins. Teach your son to socialize with all kinds of kids: older kids, younger kids, black, white, brown, rich, poor, smart, not-so-smart, etc., and teach him to make friends with girls, too! There is nothing worse than a grown man who’s never learned how to socialize with women (and vice-versa). It is a HUGE handicap in life.

[CA renter]

They’re having a great conversation with Robert Reich right now about this topic. Not sure if you guys can catch it, but try if you can.

http://act.democracyforamerica.com/sign/SavingCapitalismDFALive/

Phone number: (855)-756-7520
Conference number: Ext 30220#

[Author]

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