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bearishgurl
ParticipantI just ran across this article today, linked to an e-mail newsletter I subscribe to. It’s hilarious and sad at the same time. It speaks to the “emotional fragility” of today’s “college-student set.”
Participant[quote=flu]The reason why technology hasn’t pursued this isn’t that technology can’t eventually solve this problem. It’s all about cost.
It’s much cheaper to hire a young paralegal than to invest in technology to do the same thing. And given the way the legal profession has been over the past few years, there’s a lot of supply of people who can do all this work to such that at this point that there is no financial incentive to invest in technology to try this at a lower cost at this point.. Over the past few years many people pursue a career to be a lawyer. Some made it, many did not. And the ones that didn’t add to the ever increasing supply of folks playing supporting roles.
People like this…
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/mar/24/thomas-jefferson-law-school-verdict/
That said, you can’t replace a top trial lawyer and you probably can’t report a lawyer that is good negotiating. But eventually you could replace all the administrative functions with technology if cost was an issue.[/quote]flu, I don’t agree with either of your (italicized) statements (above) because it’s not that simple. A 22-23 year-old fresh out of paralegal school can’t possibly have the knowledge to do the same calibur work as a paralegal with decades of experience. A student in law school or paralegal school only learns generalities and theory of the law. They don’t learn the rules of court or how to format documents for a particular state or what forms are proper to use for a particular county wherein a different form might be used for another county in the same state to accomplish the same goal. In addition, they don’t know the nuances of the sitting trial judges in the county they are primarily working within. These judges’ individual “trial procedures” could be night and day from one another.
In SD, an experienced paralegal costs $30-$35K per year more to bring on board than does a beginning paralegal but is well worth the money in avoiding the aggravation of having to supervise the newbie green paralegal very closely and possibly being sanctioned by the court for missed deadlines, etc.
I’ve proofread a lot of work over the years done by newbies in the field as well as by workers for whom English was not their first language and found that the work from both of these groups was rife with errors. For example, without years of experience, one cannot successfully transcribe multiple people speaking who may have an English dialect the typist may have never heard (ie “Texan” or “Cajun”) or isn’t used to hearing. Nor can they understand what the parties are saying if they are talking over one another or one is crying. Also, I found that almost all the people doing the kind of work I do who were about 12 or more years younger than me apparently did not receive an adequate public education in the use of English, grammar or punctuation. Even if they were born in the US, the bulk of the public school systems in the US seem to have fallen down in this regard sometime around the mid-seventies. I’ve even proofread some of my kids’ college papers for them before submission and they all were full of errors. And my kids attended one of the “better” HS’s in SD county and even took “AP English” which did not exist at the time I went to HS. I received an excellent K-12 public education with a lot of rote sentence diagramming in English Grammar and learned “reading, writing and arithmetic” by rote memory with my teachers filling up whole rooms of blackboards and using their pointer to repeatedly summon students up to the blackboard to properly diagram a sentence for the class. For that, I am very grateful. It’s obvious to me that public schools haven’t taught the way I learned for several decades now …. to the detriment of the recent crops of HS graduates.
One who can’t read and write English succinctly and properly will be unsuccessful in the legal business, IMO. If they are an attorney who dictates bad grammar and erroneous punctuation (because that’s all they know) and they hire a secretary or paralegal to take their dictation for whom English is not their first language or a younger one with little practical experience on the job who flunked basic grammar in HS and did the minimum to get by in Freshman Comp in college (IF they attended college), the end result will likely be that their work turns out to be illegible gibberish that is unfileable and unserveable. That is, IF the attorney realizes this before it is actually filed and served, lol. If they don’t, their credibility could be at stake before the court. In addition, they will be embarrassed when the court’s research attorneys go thru every moving paper filed in their dept with a fined-toothed comb which is longer than ten pages and notate them for the judge (to save time on the court’s busy calendar).
Of course, attorneys are free to hire whomever will cost them the least or whose personality they “like” the best and live with the consequences. When I worked in law offices, I didn’t like others to touch my work because invariably, it got botched by someone else (usually very poorly formatted), later making me look bad when I shouldn’t have been blamed. Thus, I work better one on one with just 1-2 attorneys versus working within a hodgepodge pool of attorneys and other non-attorney personnel. I’ve never liked my “contributions” at work to get “lost in the shuffle” because when that happens, each worker is only as good as the lowest common denominator in their group.
I read the 1st page of the recent UT article you posted and feel the “plaintiff” who lost to Thomas Jefferson SOL probably should have won but for the allegations in her complaint in which she alleged insufficient detail. Thus, she could not bring those allegations forth in trial before her jury because she never alleged them in the first place. And she actually had a “human” for an attorney :=0
She can always work as a “paralegal” (as so many bar-cardholders do in SD) until such time as she lands a position as an attorney. She might be better off to take the bar exam in a “less-lawyered” state and seek employment there after she passes. CA has been a very hard market to break into (as a new lawyer) for 20+ years, now.
Back to the OP, I don’t believe the work of doctors, NPs and other medical personnel can be successfully outsourced to “robots,” either. I don’t know about you, but I would never want to leave my life in the hands of a “robot,” even if they were only prescribing medicine for me :=0
Participant[quote=flu][quote=ucodegen]@flu
You might want to check the history of IBM Watson. It is ‘Deep Blue’s spawn, not something weird (yet again) from Microsoft.
With the Microsoft chatbot, some people realized that they were dealing with a parrot, a not particularly bright one at that, instead of an AI. An AI would have asked why the person wanted it to repeat everything said.
PS: IBM Watson bought some critical medical companies recently. It would probably do better at analyzing xrays, CTs and MRIs than sending them off to some cheap sweatshop in India. It will probably be more consistent than can be achieved even with well trained individuals.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-ibm-watson-is-transforming-healthcare-2015-7%5B/quote%5D
I’ve very familiar with Watson…. I saw it on Jeopardy one time 🙂
I think more impressively is if Watson can replace a $300-400/hr attorney. We have way too many lawyers and folks in the legal profession in this country that way over complicates simple things, more so than doctors.[/quote]Ha ha …. regarding non-lawyer “folks in the legal profession” being replaced by “Dr. Watson,” Uhmmm …. that’s already been tried about 15-20 years ago, and, suffice to say, it didn’t end well :=0
The “attempted replacement” for non-lawyer clerks and secretaries was named “Dragon.” That is, their full name was, “Dragon Naturally Speaking” :=D
Of course, Mr/Ms “Dragon” never filed any workers comp claims for carpal tunnel syndrome but in spite of that, they only lasted a week or so on the job before they were all summarily fired :=0
The primary duties of Mr/Ms Dragon were to type whatever they heard on the dictaphone (dictated material). Have any of you ever tried to “proofread” the Dragon?? It’s hilarious! Not only does Mr/Ms Dragon “forget” to use adverbs, (s)he/it doesn’t understand singular from plural, cannot punctuate to save their souls (that was ok, since they didn’t have “souls”) and couldn’t discern one word from another similar-sounding word with a completely different meaning. In addition, Mr/Ms Dragon had no idea how to cite any law or legally format anything that was dictated to them! We had to have “human experts in the field” (whom “Dragon” was “hired” to eventually “replace,” lol) go thru ALL of Mr/Ms Dragon’s work with a fine toothed comb and fix it so it could be used in a court of law. Because we had to re-listen to the the dictated material that Dragon tried to transcribe, this took much longer and was far more tedious than doing all the work ourselves!
Buying several sets of the Dragon was an exercise in futility and a huge waste of money (software was a LOT more expensive back then than it is today). It was management’s bright idea to try the Dragon to see if they could get by with less humans (with different personalities whom they considered “difficult”) but alas, it turned out to be a fiasco. (Mr/Ms Dragon not only had no personality, they had no brain, either.) Thus, they were hopelessly incompetent.
Participantflu, imagine yourself a plaintiff in court represented by your lawyer, who is a “Dr Watson robot.” Your lawyer misses the nuances of a cross examination on you, which will need “cleaning up,” so the jury can put your previous testimony into context. Upon redirect, (s)he/it does not ask you the right questions, so the jury takes at face value how you answered when you were trapped in a cross-examination and you lose the case based on this (and likely a whole slew of other errors in your case that your “counsel,” “Dr Watson,” made).
Do you think you will be able to sue Dr Watson for malpractice (in attempt to recover all or some of your losses which should have been won)? How about filing a complaint with the state bar against Dr. Watson? How well do you think that will go over?
What if Dr Watson, the criminal practitioner, makes such egregious errors representing a defendant accused of a capital crime that that defendant ends up sentenced to death as a result of a jury verdict but was actually innocent but framed? What is the remedy against Dr Watson?
I could go on and on but you can see where I’m going here. The stakes are just simply too high in the legal system to allow “Dr Watson” to “practice law” :=0
Participant[quote=flu][quote=bearishgurl][quote=flu] … There’s also unnecessary waste in our legal systems. Particularly how ridiculously expensive.legal counsel is. Just a few months ago, I was in a jury selection group for a case that was going to trial over someone that shoplifted some toiletry items at Walmart. Seriously, we need a two day trial for this?[/quote]flu, the crime you describe here is a misdemeanor in CA and typically adjudicated quickly and sentenced without trial. Your “defendant” must have had numerous (2 or more, but likely more than 2) priors of petty theft and/or grand theft.
The facts of the crime and the circumstances surrounding the offender often dictate whether prosecutors and judges go with the misdemeanor or felony label….
(emphasis mine)
See: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-wobbler.html
and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law
[/quote]Thanks for support my claim that our legal system is bloated with unnecasriky complicated and circular jargon with the sole intent and purpose to add thick layers of bureaucracy and bloat, and I guess, provide additional jobs that normally would not be needed if the legal system was actually just simplified.[/quote]This is precisely why “robots” or “Dr. Watson” can’t do the any of these jobs and will never be able to do any of them, as you suggested over on the “ot: do we need doctors” thread. Nothing in the legal system is as “simple” as it appears to the “layman.”
[quote=flu][quote=ucodegen]@flu
You might want to check the history of IBM Watson. It is ‘Deep Blue’s spawn, not something weird (yet again) from Microsoft.
With the Microsoft chatbot, some people realized that they were dealing with a parrot, a not particularly bright one at that, instead of an AI. An AI would have asked why the person wanted it to repeat everything said.
PS: IBM Watson bought some critical medical companies recently. It would probably do better at analyzing xrays, CTs and MRIs than sending them off to some cheap sweatshop in India. It will probably be more consistent than can be achieved even with well trained individuals.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-ibm-watson-is-transforming-healthcare-2015-7%5B/quote%5D
I’ve very familiar with Watson…. I saw it on Jeopardy one time 🙂
I think more impressively is if Watson can replace a $300-400/hr attorney. We have way too many lawyers and folks in the legal profession in this country that way over complicates simple things, more so than doctors.[/quote]
Participant[quote=flu] … There’s also unnecessary waste in our legal systems. Particularly how ridiculously expensive.legal counsel is. Just a few months ago, I was in a jury selection group for a case that was going to trial over someone that shoplifted some toiletry items at Walmart. Seriously, we need a two day trial for this?[/quote]flu, the crime you describe here is a misdemeanor in CA and typically adjudicated quickly and sentenced without trial. Your “defendant” must have had numerous (2 or more, but likely more than 2) priors of petty theft and/or grand theft.
The facts of the crime and the circumstances surrounding the offender often dictate whether prosecutors and judges go with the misdemeanor or felony label….
(emphasis mine)
See: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-wobbler.html
Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Go even simpler, go single payer. Eliminate all the office staff and insurance overhead that is bundled in costs to handle the insane billing hoops.[/quote]I’m starting to lean this direction, but I want to see and hear what it actually looks like. Since “Medicare” is a “single-payer” for those 65 and up, that group can buy good (Plan F) Medicare supplement plans (Part B) and also better drug plans (Part D) to supplement the Medicare “single payer” plan everyone has. Those who do so (for about $350-$400 mo in SD) have nearly “Cadillac plans” because nearly ALL providers accept Medicare. I might be interested in single-payer if I will be allowed to buy the supplement of my choice.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]When I had a dog I quickly grew sick of paying vet bills, and being upsold useless services.
I vaccinated and scrapped the tartar off the golden retriever’s teeth myself. I even froze warts off myself. No need for a Vet. She lived to 18 and could have lived to 20. I put her down at animal control in mission valley for $5.[/quote]Good for you, brian. I have given shots before to my pets but not in recent years because the place I used to get them (Spring Valley Feed) closed down years ago in an eminent domain action in favor of Caltrans for the SR-125 to SR-54 overpass. I have given my dog several “human” topical creams and ointments (incl Lidocaine spray) that were safe for dogs.I DO have the stainless steel dental implement to pick and scrape my pets teeth and they are fairly cooperative but I’m not confident enough to use it properly on them (afraid I’m going to damage their gums). Dental care for a cat or dog is super expensive because of the pre-op bloodwork and anesthesia required ($350 – $700, depending on if they need extraction(s)) but I DO get it done on them at least once every 2 years. I wish I was able to perform this job competently myself.
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]Let’s focus on the best yielding 20% of med. Serv8ces, take 15% of total savings and have national dental care, and pay down debt with the rest.[/quote]I’m all for this plan, scaredy.
I’m probably going to get slammed for saying this, but I don’t feel chemo (at $20K++ month) works for most cancer patients, stage 3.5 and up. All it does is ruin what few weeks or months of life the patient has left. I think a lot of people use very, very expensive medical procedures and drugs as a last ditch effort to try to buy more weeks/months of life when they would have a much better quality of life just letting the cancer have it’s way … which it will do, regardless of how much medical care they access simply because they can.
Participant[quote=The-Shoveler]I agree BG, CA is very unique in the world and there are many nice cities within SoCal.
But I find it very interesting that Temecula (being that it really was not on the map before 1980 or so), has grown as much as it has and is getting noticed in a good way.[/quote]Yes, shoveler, but the pretty photo shown to the nation was actually taken in TV’s wine country. There is no mention of the crowded roads and many tight subdivisions in Temecula or commute times for the average worker-bee who lives there. If Temecula hasn’t yet put a (subdivision) moratorium in place, it should do so ASAP, IMO. The amount of people forever lined up there in their vehicles just attempting to live their daily lives (or get on and off I-15 multiple times daily) is absolutely mind-boggling to me. A little pit stop off “Rancho CA Rd” 35+ years ago has been turned into an oversized, burgeoning megalopolis with spillover into nearby towns which is undoubtedly adversely affecting the quality of life for TV residents every single day.
Participant[quote=livinincali]I thought the liberal left wan’t extreme but apparently writing Trump’s name in chalk now constitutes offensive hate speech.
[quote]
Conservative students at Emory University are planning a free-speech event for next week, after an outcry on campus over messages supporting Donald Trump.Students woke up Monday morning to find messages written in chalk all over campus, in support of Donald Trump. That afternoon, a group of 40 to 50 students protested. According to the student newspaper, the Emory Wheel, they shouted in the quad, “You are not listening! Come speak to us, we are in pain!” and then students moved into the administration building calling out, “It is our duty to fight for our freedom. It is our duty to win. We must love each other and support each other. We have nothing to lose but our chains.
[/quote]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/03/24/someone-wrote-trump-2016-on-emorys-campus-in-chalk-some-students-said-they-no-longer-feel-safe/%5B/quote%5D”…some students said they no longer feel safe.”
From chalk marks?? This is such a crock of sh!t. They’re a bunch of immature, PC whiners. If it weren’t for the 18-23 year-old (student) crowd outside a lot of these Trump rallies, we wouldn’t be seeing all of these protests (some of which are really getting out of hand).
I take it back when I said that Trump should campaign on or near UC/CSU campuses when his entourage arrives in Cali (not sure if it was on this thread or the “OT Predictions” thread). Today’s college students apparently have too fragile of “sensibilities” and are too immature to allow anyone else their right of free speech without acting out :=0
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]I bet if we eliminated 75 perc. Of med. Services human lifespans and outcomes would be similar[/quote]
Yes. The worried well use a lot of services.
Healthcare is like a food buffet. People consume a lot because they can. The results aren’t pretty and speak for themselves.
Private system we have is misallocating resources.I don’t get people who like to take pills. I avoid. Never have to take painkillers.
And new study said patients are more honest with their smart phone apps than with their doctors.[/quote]Agree. And $40 month for a Y membership is a LOT cheaper than one single brand-name prescription (for pain pills?) per month. And if you actually use it, it works better, too :=0
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=ocrenter]a better question would be “do we need people”.
ultimately AI will prove to be superior to human beings in all aspects. And a mechanical body with infinitely exchangeable and upgradeable parts will be superior to biologic based, age limited body.
Do we want to go there is the question…[/quote]
We can keep some humans around for old times sake.[/quote]LOL …
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]I bet if we eliminated 75 perc. Of med. Services human lifespans and outcomes would be similar[/quote]I somewhat agree with this, scaredy, and know several people (yes, boomers) who shun conventional medicine whenever possible in favor of (unreimbursed and uncovered) homeopathic medicine. In some cases, I think shunning traditional medicine (whenever possible) could lead to a longer lifespan.
However, the average Joe and Jane 6p likely has not adopted a strict enough lifestyle to “maintain” themselves without medical intervention, especially when they reach the age of 55-ish. For example, most people would be bored with eating cooked steel-cut oats with flaxseed 6-7 mornings per week and living mostly on raw food (salads and vegetables). And most people don’t have the discipline to hit the gym for weight training, lap swimming and go to yoga class, etc, 3 or more times per week. Fortunately, in So-Cal (and probably other locales such as urban CO) there are also a lot of non-gym activities in place for boomers, including hiking and skiing clubs and running/walking clubs. Hence, there are a LOT of fit (even very fit) boomers around me.
The same can’t be said for the population of mostly flatlanders in this country who end up getting “shut in” under air-conditioning for most of the year and have a food culture which is more oriented towards the meat and dairy industries located in their states.
We in Cali are very fortunate to have an abundance of cheap produce available year-round which is grown here or in MX. This isn’t the case in most of the rest of the country.
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