[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I’m an ex-Ranger. Of course ego plays a part in that, right or wrong.

The larger point I was making is in having respect for those who served. And here I am not speaking for myself, but for someone like Ex-SD. This guy did two tours in Vietnam. Most of my senior NCOs were Vietnam vets and the human cost of that war was awful. For someone like justme to snottily demean his time there is abhorrent. I cannot imagine how many of his friends went into body bags, but after two years in-country I would imagine it was a lot.

You seem reasonable and well-intentioned. I’m guessing USAF or Navy, right?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I’m an ex-Ranger. Of course ego plays a part in that, right or wrong.

The larger point I was making is in having respect for those who served. And here I am not speaking for myself, but for someone like Ex-SD. This guy did two tours in Vietnam. Most of my senior NCOs were Vietnam vets and the human cost of that war was awful. For someone like justme to snottily demean his time there is abhorrent. I cannot imagine how many of his friends went into body bags, but after two years in-country I would imagine it was a lot.

You seem reasonable and well-intentioned. I’m guessing USAF or Navy, right?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I’m an ex-Ranger. Of course ego plays a part in that, right or wrong.

The larger point I was making is in having respect for those who served. And here I am not speaking for myself, but for someone like Ex-SD. This guy did two tours in Vietnam. Most of my senior NCOs were Vietnam vets and the human cost of that war was awful. For someone like justme to snottily demean his time there is abhorrent. I cannot imagine how many of his friends went into body bags, but after two years in-country I would imagine it was a lot.

You seem reasonable and well-intentioned. I’m guessing USAF or Navy, right?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I’m an ex-Ranger. Of course ego plays a part in that, right or wrong.

The larger point I was making is in having respect for those who served. And here I am not speaking for myself, but for someone like Ex-SD. This guy did two tours in Vietnam. Most of my senior NCOs were Vietnam vets and the human cost of that war was awful. For someone like justme to snottily demean his time there is abhorrent. I cannot imagine how many of his friends went into body bags, but after two years in-country I would imagine it was a lot.

You seem reasonable and well-intentioned. I’m guessing USAF or Navy, right?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dukehorn: I would be the first to agree with your point about the Balkanization of American politics and arguing the extremes. I fall into this trap myself (and did so on this thread).

The problem I have is not with liberals, but left wingers. And, no, I am not categorizing them as moonbats or nutjobs, but I feel the threat is far more insidious. The Hate America First mentality that pervades the Daily Kos and Huffington Post is not only destructive, but weakens our resolve during those times we need it most.

You mention Clinton’s impeachment trial. Randomly ask 50 Americans what this was about, and nearly all will argue that it was over Bill getting a blowjob from Monica. But it wasn’t. It was over a sitting President, who was a trained attorney, attempting to suborn perjury. The invective from both sides, right and left, completely obscures this very important point.

Similar to that is the spew over Bush and the neocons. You hear terms like “war mongering” thrown about casually without any sort of reasoned discussion accompanying them. Both parties have become so adept at identity politics and wedge issues that they’ve forgotten the real issues confronting us. Or, as I’m sure someone like CONCHO would successfully argue, they haven’t forgotten at all. Rather, the Dems and Repubs have become virtually indistinguishable from one another, and have reduced the average American to a jingoistic, ill-informed rube with the attention span of a gnat.

I don’t think of a liberal in pejorative terms. To the contrary, I think liberalism is one of the things that made this country great. I also believe that an open dialogue between opposing points of view is what keeps a representative democracy dynamic. The latest iteration, which I do believe was as fueled by Clinton as it is by Bush, now favors an encroaching police state, constant foreign interventions and the pablum shoved down our throats by a complicit media (and, no, I don’t think its an accident that all of the major media players are owned by major corporations).

We’re so busy arguing over non-issues like gay marriage that we’ve completely missed the big picture. My grandma left Germany in 1935. She told me once that if Nazism ever came to America, it would be because we voted for it. Sadly, that remark seems eerily prescient.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dukehorn: I would be the first to agree with your point about the Balkanization of American politics and arguing the extremes. I fall into this trap myself (and did so on this thread).

The problem I have is not with liberals, but left wingers. And, no, I am not categorizing them as moonbats or nutjobs, but I feel the threat is far more insidious. The Hate America First mentality that pervades the Daily Kos and Huffington Post is not only destructive, but weakens our resolve during those times we need it most.

You mention Clinton’s impeachment trial. Randomly ask 50 Americans what this was about, and nearly all will argue that it was over Bill getting a blowjob from Monica. But it wasn’t. It was over a sitting President, who was a trained attorney, attempting to suborn perjury. The invective from both sides, right and left, completely obscures this very important point.

Similar to that is the spew over Bush and the neocons. You hear terms like “war mongering” thrown about casually without any sort of reasoned discussion accompanying them. Both parties have become so adept at identity politics and wedge issues that they’ve forgotten the real issues confronting us. Or, as I’m sure someone like CONCHO would successfully argue, they haven’t forgotten at all. Rather, the Dems and Repubs have become virtually indistinguishable from one another, and have reduced the average American to a jingoistic, ill-informed rube with the attention span of a gnat.

I don’t think of a liberal in pejorative terms. To the contrary, I think liberalism is one of the things that made this country great. I also believe that an open dialogue between opposing points of view is what keeps a representative democracy dynamic. The latest iteration, which I do believe was as fueled by Clinton as it is by Bush, now favors an encroaching police state, constant foreign interventions and the pablum shoved down our throats by a complicit media (and, no, I don’t think its an accident that all of the major media players are owned by major corporations).

We’re so busy arguing over non-issues like gay marriage that we’ve completely missed the big picture. My grandma left Germany in 1935. She told me once that if Nazism ever came to America, it would be because we voted for it. Sadly, that remark seems eerily prescient.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dukehorn: I would be the first to agree with your point about the Balkanization of American politics and arguing the extremes. I fall into this trap myself (and did so on this thread).

The problem I have is not with liberals, but left wingers. And, no, I am not categorizing them as moonbats or nutjobs, but I feel the threat is far more insidious. The Hate America First mentality that pervades the Daily Kos and Huffington Post is not only destructive, but weakens our resolve during those times we need it most.

You mention Clinton’s impeachment trial. Randomly ask 50 Americans what this was about, and nearly all will argue that it was over Bill getting a blowjob from Monica. But it wasn’t. It was over a sitting President, who was a trained attorney, attempting to suborn perjury. The invective from both sides, right and left, completely obscures this very important point.

Similar to that is the spew over Bush and the neocons. You hear terms like “war mongering” thrown about casually without any sort of reasoned discussion accompanying them. Both parties have become so adept at identity politics and wedge issues that they’ve forgotten the real issues confronting us. Or, as I’m sure someone like CONCHO would successfully argue, they haven’t forgotten at all. Rather, the Dems and Repubs have become virtually indistinguishable from one another, and have reduced the average American to a jingoistic, ill-informed rube with the attention span of a gnat.

I don’t think of a liberal in pejorative terms. To the contrary, I think liberalism is one of the things that made this country great. I also believe that an open dialogue between opposing points of view is what keeps a representative democracy dynamic. The latest iteration, which I do believe was as fueled by Clinton as it is by Bush, now favors an encroaching police state, constant foreign interventions and the pablum shoved down our throats by a complicit media (and, no, I don’t think its an accident that all of the major media players are owned by major corporations).

We’re so busy arguing over non-issues like gay marriage that we’ve completely missed the big picture. My grandma left Germany in 1935. She told me once that if Nazism ever came to America, it would be because we voted for it. Sadly, that remark seems eerily prescient.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dukehorn: I would be the first to agree with your point about the Balkanization of American politics and arguing the extremes. I fall into this trap myself (and did so on this thread).

The problem I have is not with liberals, but left wingers. And, no, I am not categorizing them as moonbats or nutjobs, but I feel the threat is far more insidious. The Hate America First mentality that pervades the Daily Kos and Huffington Post is not only destructive, but weakens our resolve during those times we need it most.

You mention Clinton’s impeachment trial. Randomly ask 50 Americans what this was about, and nearly all will argue that it was over Bill getting a blowjob from Monica. But it wasn’t. It was over a sitting President, who was a trained attorney, attempting to suborn perjury. The invective from both sides, right and left, completely obscures this very important point.

Similar to that is the spew over Bush and the neocons. You hear terms like “war mongering” thrown about casually without any sort of reasoned discussion accompanying them. Both parties have become so adept at identity politics and wedge issues that they’ve forgotten the real issues confronting us. Or, as I’m sure someone like CONCHO would successfully argue, they haven’t forgotten at all. Rather, the Dems and Repubs have become virtually indistinguishable from one another, and have reduced the average American to a jingoistic, ill-informed rube with the attention span of a gnat.

I don’t think of a liberal in pejorative terms. To the contrary, I think liberalism is one of the things that made this country great. I also believe that an open dialogue between opposing points of view is what keeps a representative democracy dynamic. The latest iteration, which I do believe was as fueled by Clinton as it is by Bush, now favors an encroaching police state, constant foreign interventions and the pablum shoved down our throats by a complicit media (and, no, I don’t think its an accident that all of the major media players are owned by major corporations).

We’re so busy arguing over non-issues like gay marriage that we’ve completely missed the big picture. My grandma left Germany in 1935. She told me once that if Nazism ever came to America, it would be because we voted for it. Sadly, that remark seems eerily prescient.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dukehorn: I would be the first to agree with your point about the Balkanization of American politics and arguing the extremes. I fall into this trap myself (and did so on this thread).

The problem I have is not with liberals, but left wingers. And, no, I am not categorizing them as moonbats or nutjobs, but I feel the threat is far more insidious. The Hate America First mentality that pervades the Daily Kos and Huffington Post is not only destructive, but weakens our resolve during those times we need it most.

You mention Clinton’s impeachment trial. Randomly ask 50 Americans what this was about, and nearly all will argue that it was over Bill getting a blowjob from Monica. But it wasn’t. It was over a sitting President, who was a trained attorney, attempting to suborn perjury. The invective from both sides, right and left, completely obscures this very important point.

Similar to that is the spew over Bush and the neocons. You hear terms like “war mongering” thrown about casually without any sort of reasoned discussion accompanying them. Both parties have become so adept at identity politics and wedge issues that they’ve forgotten the real issues confronting us. Or, as I’m sure someone like CONCHO would successfully argue, they haven’t forgotten at all. Rather, the Dems and Repubs have become virtually indistinguishable from one another, and have reduced the average American to a jingoistic, ill-informed rube with the attention span of a gnat.

I don’t think of a liberal in pejorative terms. To the contrary, I think liberalism is one of the things that made this country great. I also believe that an open dialogue between opposing points of view is what keeps a representative democracy dynamic. The latest iteration, which I do believe was as fueled by Clinton as it is by Bush, now favors an encroaching police state, constant foreign interventions and the pablum shoved down our throats by a complicit media (and, no, I don’t think its an accident that all of the major media players are owned by major corporations).

We’re so busy arguing over non-issues like gay marriage that we’ve completely missed the big picture. My grandma left Germany in 1935. She told me once that if Nazism ever came to America, it would be because we voted for it. Sadly, that remark seems eerily prescient.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I have nothing against you and never have. I enjoy the repartee and you conduct yourself as a gent, even when you strongly disagree with some of what I say.

My issue with justme on the subject of military service is simple: Don’t sully the memory of those who’ve died to give you the right to express your opinions and the freedoms you take for granted. For him to demean the service of someone like Ex-SD, who did two tours in Vietnam, well, it’s beyond reprehensible and speaks to a complete lack of character and, more importantly, honor.

I took your comments in the light hearted way that they were meant. I always have. Don’t sweat it.

We used to have a great quote in one of our ready rooms when I was in the Army: “For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the sheltered never know”.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I have nothing against you and never have. I enjoy the repartee and you conduct yourself as a gent, even when you strongly disagree with some of what I say.

My issue with justme on the subject of military service is simple: Don’t sully the memory of those who’ve died to give you the right to express your opinions and the freedoms you take for granted. For him to demean the service of someone like Ex-SD, who did two tours in Vietnam, well, it’s beyond reprehensible and speaks to a complete lack of character and, more importantly, honor.

I took your comments in the light hearted way that they were meant. I always have. Don’t sweat it.

We used to have a great quote in one of our ready rooms when I was in the Army: “For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the sheltered never know”.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I have nothing against you and never have. I enjoy the repartee and you conduct yourself as a gent, even when you strongly disagree with some of what I say.

My issue with justme on the subject of military service is simple: Don’t sully the memory of those who’ve died to give you the right to express your opinions and the freedoms you take for granted. For him to demean the service of someone like Ex-SD, who did two tours in Vietnam, well, it’s beyond reprehensible and speaks to a complete lack of character and, more importantly, honor.

I took your comments in the light hearted way that they were meant. I always have. Don’t sweat it.

We used to have a great quote in one of our ready rooms when I was in the Army: “For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the sheltered never know”.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I have nothing against you and never have. I enjoy the repartee and you conduct yourself as a gent, even when you strongly disagree with some of what I say.

My issue with justme on the subject of military service is simple: Don’t sully the memory of those who’ve died to give you the right to express your opinions and the freedoms you take for granted. For him to demean the service of someone like Ex-SD, who did two tours in Vietnam, well, it’s beyond reprehensible and speaks to a complete lack of character and, more importantly, honor.

I took your comments in the light hearted way that they were meant. I always have. Don’t sweat it.

We used to have a great quote in one of our ready rooms when I was in the Army: “For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the sheltered never know”.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rus: I have nothing against you and never have. I enjoy the repartee and you conduct yourself as a gent, even when you strongly disagree with some of what I say.

My issue with justme on the subject of military service is simple: Don’t sully the memory of those who’ve died to give you the right to express your opinions and the freedoms you take for granted. For him to demean the service of someone like Ex-SD, who did two tours in Vietnam, well, it’s beyond reprehensible and speaks to a complete lack of character and, more importantly, honor.

I took your comments in the light hearted way that they were meant. I always have. Don’t sweat it.

We used to have a great quote in one of our ready rooms when I was in the Army: “For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the sheltered never know”.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

justme: The US bombing campaign over Europe lasted just over three years (1942 – 1945). The average American four engined bomber (let’s use the B-17 Flying Fortress) carried approx 6,000lbs of bombs (standard 500lb bombs). The average mission involved approx 100 – 200 bombers on AVERAGE, meaning that while some missions mounted as many as 1,000 bombers, the average was far lower.

You are arguing that the USAAC/USAAF dropped 1.4 BILLION tons of bombs on Europe during that period? I would argue that the Wikipedia statistic should have read MILLIONS and not BILLIONS. Especially given that modern bombers, such as the B-52 Stratofortress, carry as much as 84 TONS of bombs per plane.

So, this factor of 2,700x is suspect, and I would imagine if you did a little checking you would find the same thing.

However, you seem to seize any small item and treat it as revealed truth, all the while holding yourself above the fray and refusing to deign in any substantive argument regarding the real facts.

As a former soldier, I find your comments regarding my ability to torture you repugnant and contemptible, as I found your willingness to denigrate Ex-SD’s service in Vietnam. My guess is that you never served your country and probably feel that all vets are somehow stupid for supporting America and being willing to lay down our lives for something we believe in. I have buried far too many of my friends to listen to that kind of unforgivable crap. I would ask for an apology, but with the sort of coward you clearly are, I know one isn’t forthcoming.

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