.

[spdrun]

It’s not only Asian and Euro imports to blame. What about domestic manufacturers who moved their operations to more “pro-business”/less corrupt states and cities?

[CA renter]

[quote=birmingplumb]Henry Ford pulled the farmers sons off the family farm leaving ma and pa holding the bag. Then the Cass Corridor was built to house the several hundred thousand transient southern worker. We had 100,000 at Ford Rouge, 60k at dodge main. Conner Avenue had 100 bars from Jefferson to 6 mile ( 6 miles) and at quiting time just after the War, there were 100’000 people on Conner. That was our heyday. One by one, plants closed helped by the Japan invasion in the 70’s. People bought Toyota’s vw’s and Datsuns. Once secretive auto companys were forced to sub contract components to compete with the jap government subsidized foreign cars. ( prob ours too) Once the sub contractors had control and we sold our equipment, they sold all our technology to Kia and others who sprang to the front with bought technology from suppliers with no loyalty. So thats where we went wrong folks. Suppliers broke the monopoly. It was good while it lasted. Detroit is a shell of it’s former self. When the plants pulled out, they left a waste land of welfare and liquor stores for the children to study. 4 th generation of welfare is here in Detroit. Add corrupt slick ass college boys politicians and u have the fox guarding the hen house. I moved my children to San Diego 3 years ago from Detroit. God bless San Diego and the forum and especially Bearish Gurl. Motown[/quote]

Thanks for sharing that perspective, BP. Very interesting.

[paramount]

[quote=birmingplumb] Detroit is a shell of it’s former self. Motown[/quote]

From Motown to Notown (GC).

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CDMA ENG]
Man… As much as I like to bash unions… Hobie is completely correct. Unions were just the “knob turners” that put the product together. [/quote]

Not correct CDMA. I used to work in the auto industry. Those management choices you complain about were in a large part driven by the unions. Not actively, but passively through reticence and inflexibility.

By the 80s, the UAW benefit package cost to the companies exceeded both the competition’s cost and profit margin together, particularly on the low cost point vehicle.

By the 80s, the UAW had job bank and literally, had entire assembly lines of people sitting playing cards at picnic tables watching the automated stamping machines punch out doors. Instead of 40+ people working the line, there were two, one running the crane loading the steel roll in, one running another picking the carts of loaded doors out. And 40 people sitting playing cards, all getting paid.

Sorry, no product choice is going to succeed over that. Management failed, but the failure management had was not forcing the union back to reality before it was too late, they may have failed. I’m not sure how long the union could have held out.

Either way, the companies literally couldn’t build the vehicles you think they should have, their cost structure prevented it and the union pay and benefit package was a big part of that. Stupid design like having 20 fasteners for a bumper versus the competitions 5 just enhanced the problem.

Everybody wants to whine about the big three just building big trucks and SUVs before their demise (Ford excepted), but they did that for a reason, they are the only vehicle they make money on.

You haven’t seen despair until you seen a town whose one main plant has been downsizing for a decade.

[SD Realtor]

nsr my wifes uncle worked for GM around the same time you mention. I saw him a few months ago at a reunion and he told us about the card games. He said they did it for about 2 years straight. They did it because they had to show up at work according to him, otherwise they would not have showed up at all. This was at GM in Oklahoma.

[SD Realtor]

Also still taking bets on a federal bailout. I believe the dems are gonna push for it.

[The-Shoveler]

[quote=SD Realtor]Also still taking bets on a federal bailout. I believe the dems are gonna push for it.[/quote]

Let the Moral hazard begin !!!
What could go wrong!

Yea this is what I fully expect will happen,

My bet is there will be limits on benefits paid, (almost to the point where they could have done it themselves but it will take the fed gov to push it through).

[FlyerInHi]

The dems in DC would be stupid to touch this one.

Rick Snyder has been all over the TV selling the bankruptcy. Remmber that the michigan constitution protects public pension so Michigan taxpayers could be on the hook

Snyder is the one who appointed Kevyn Orr.

If Snyder wants a federal bailout for his state, he will have to ask for it. There goes a potential nominee for 2016.

[The-Shoveler]

In the end I guess that’s what it’s all about (the big one)

Does Federal BK law trump State law.

We will see I guess, there will be a lot of eyes on this one.

[SK in CV]

[quote=The-Shoveler]In the end I guess that’s what it’s all about (the big one)

Does Federal BK law trump State law.

We will see I guess, there will be a lot of eyes on this one.[/quote]

Where do you see the conflict between MI law and bankruptcy law?

[The-Shoveler]

It’s very simple really,

When the City files BK, it does so in Federal court.

If the Federal court over rules the State Law saying that “public employee pensions cannot be diminished or impaired”

Well I guess that’s where the real battle begins.

Interesting times.

[CA renter]

[quote=SD Realtor]Also still taking bets on a federal bailout. I believe the dems are gonna push for it.[/quote]

Why not? The precedent was set when the govt/Fed bailed out all of the financial institutions and the capitalists (and loser borrowers/gamblers who were clearly every bit as responsible for the debacle as the lenders and other speculators) who drove our economy into the ground. We’re still paying for it dearly, in the form of 0-1% savings rates on savings. Personally, this “tax” is much, much greater than any tax that would be required to bail out Detroit.

Let the games begin…

[CA renter]

[quote=The-Shoveler]It’s very simple really,

When the City files BK, it does so in Federal court.

If the Federal court over rules the State Law saying that “public employee pensions cannot be diminished or impaired”

Well I guess that’s where the real battle begins.

Interesting times.[/quote]

Employee compensation (including pensions), are priority claims. The only question is how they will determine the limits of the priority claims for a municipal BK, as opposed to limits for a business BK. Bondholders do not have priority claims.

[FlyerInHi]

It’s a little different CAr. Wall Street paid back the bailouts. As I believe NYC paid back the loan it got back in the 1970s. Detroit is losing residents and can’t possibly pay back.

They are in a catch 22. If they don’t improve services, the city’s tax base will continue to shrink. But if they pay pensions and bondholders, they don’t have enough money to improve services to attract residents and businesses.

Maybe the Michigan Supreme Court will rule on this eventually. Will it go to the US Supreme Court? I doubt it.

As to low interet rates, why do you expect to make money just holding money? You get paid for your productivity… There is no inherent right to earning interest on cash.

[spdrun]

If cash keeps its value, than that’s fine. Why should people who were productive in the past not be able to enjoy the fruits of that productivity WITHOUT working like fucking dogs till they die?

Interest rate should be very close to real inflation rate. Despite what Ben flaps his yap about, real inflation isn’t even close to 2% right now; things like housing, food, and energy are just excluded. If real inflation were running at 2%, a 1% rate would be about fair.

Why should people stay on the treadmill until they die?

[Author]

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