Surreal State of the State Speech

[EconProf]

Good points Allan, and I’d add another: short-termism. We all want current benefits from government, whether lower taxes or government spending, and we ignor to long-term costs.
Our pension tsunami is the result of politicians promising mind-numbing increases that would all take effect years later. The savvy unions that extracted these committments knew they just hugely raised the lifetime income of their members. The complacent public and asleep media let it happen, and are now waking up to the cost that now must be paid.
The same can be said about social security, the recent “bailouts”, and impossible math of Obamacare.

[zk]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

zk: I would offer two thoughts for consideration. First, and specific to California and more generally the US as a whole: We’re now seeing the fallout from several decades of vote buying, and by both parties. The GOP has focused on Big Business, Big Money and Big Oil and the Dems have focused on unions and organized labor and minorities. Both parties have pandered to their base and have been co-opted by their more reactionary and radicalized elements, thus the parlous state of dialogue and discourse in this country.[/quote]

I’d agree with all of that.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The other thought is that our politicians are venal, corrupt and fairly worthless, and what does that say about us as a populace?[/quote]

I think it says we’re gullible, short sighted, and not too bright.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

This thread illustrates what Rich was referring to when he decried “Left versus Right slapfighting”. We’ve become so used to ad hominem and demonizing our “opponents”, that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture and the ability to work as a consensus.[/quote]

Actually, if you read this whole thread, there is very little left vs. right slapfighting. Aside from Brutus and djshakes, there was almost none. Which is pretty amazing, because what you say is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.

[zk]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

zk: I would offer two thoughts for consideration. First, and specific to California and more generally the US as a whole: We’re now seeing the fallout from several decades of vote buying, and by both parties. The GOP has focused on Big Business, Big Money and Big Oil and the Dems have focused on unions and organized labor and minorities. Both parties have pandered to their base and have been co-opted by their more reactionary and radicalized elements, thus the parlous state of dialogue and discourse in this country.[/quote]

I’d agree with all of that.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The other thought is that our politicians are venal, corrupt and fairly worthless, and what does that say about us as a populace?[/quote]

I think it says we’re gullible, short sighted, and not too bright.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

This thread illustrates what Rich was referring to when he decried “Left versus Right slapfighting”. We’ve become so used to ad hominem and demonizing our “opponents”, that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture and the ability to work as a consensus.[/quote]

Actually, if you read this whole thread, there is very little left vs. right slapfighting. Aside from Brutus and djshakes, there was almost none. Which is pretty amazing, because what you say is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.

[zk]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

zk: I would offer two thoughts for consideration. First, and specific to California and more generally the US as a whole: We’re now seeing the fallout from several decades of vote buying, and by both parties. The GOP has focused on Big Business, Big Money and Big Oil and the Dems have focused on unions and organized labor and minorities. Both parties have pandered to their base and have been co-opted by their more reactionary and radicalized elements, thus the parlous state of dialogue and discourse in this country.[/quote]

I’d agree with all of that.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The other thought is that our politicians are venal, corrupt and fairly worthless, and what does that say about us as a populace?[/quote]

I think it says we’re gullible, short sighted, and not too bright.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

This thread illustrates what Rich was referring to when he decried “Left versus Right slapfighting”. We’ve become so used to ad hominem and demonizing our “opponents”, that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture and the ability to work as a consensus.[/quote]

Actually, if you read this whole thread, there is very little left vs. right slapfighting. Aside from Brutus and djshakes, there was almost none. Which is pretty amazing, because what you say is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.

[zk]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

zk: I would offer two thoughts for consideration. First, and specific to California and more generally the US as a whole: We’re now seeing the fallout from several decades of vote buying, and by both parties. The GOP has focused on Big Business, Big Money and Big Oil and the Dems have focused on unions and organized labor and minorities. Both parties have pandered to their base and have been co-opted by their more reactionary and radicalized elements, thus the parlous state of dialogue and discourse in this country.[/quote]

I’d agree with all of that.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The other thought is that our politicians are venal, corrupt and fairly worthless, and what does that say about us as a populace?[/quote]

I think it says we’re gullible, short sighted, and not too bright.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

This thread illustrates what Rich was referring to when he decried “Left versus Right slapfighting”. We’ve become so used to ad hominem and demonizing our “opponents”, that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture and the ability to work as a consensus.[/quote]

Actually, if you read this whole thread, there is very little left vs. right slapfighting. Aside from Brutus and djshakes, there was almost none. Which is pretty amazing, because what you say is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.

[zk]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

zk: I would offer two thoughts for consideration. First, and specific to California and more generally the US as a whole: We’re now seeing the fallout from several decades of vote buying, and by both parties. The GOP has focused on Big Business, Big Money and Big Oil and the Dems have focused on unions and organized labor and minorities. Both parties have pandered to their base and have been co-opted by their more reactionary and radicalized elements, thus the parlous state of dialogue and discourse in this country.[/quote]

I’d agree with all of that.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The other thought is that our politicians are venal, corrupt and fairly worthless, and what does that say about us as a populace?[/quote]

I think it says we’re gullible, short sighted, and not too bright.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

This thread illustrates what Rich was referring to when he decried “Left versus Right slapfighting”. We’ve become so used to ad hominem and demonizing our “opponents”, that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture and the ability to work as a consensus.[/quote]

Actually, if you read this whole thread, there is very little left vs. right slapfighting. Aside from Brutus and djshakes, there was almost none. Which is pretty amazing, because what you say is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=zk]There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.[/quote]

zk: I read your response and EconProf’s, and I couldn’t help but think that many of the folks on this board that weigh on in California’s problems and how to solve them, actually haven’t been here all that long.

I was 10 when Jerry Brown first took office in 1975, and just graduating high school when he departed in 1983. I remember my dad, a life-long Democrat, lamenting that Jerry wasn’t at all like his dad Pat (Brown). I was thinking that because one of the posters commented that California didn’t have these problems when the “conservatives” ran the state. Well, Pat Brown was a Democrat and helped implement a blueprint that made California the envy of the country and much of the world when it came to things like education, industry, innovation and business development. Along with Ronald Reagan (as a Republican governor), there was a definite strategy and a plan.

The sad fact is, both Democrats and Republicans have succeeded in wrecking this state, and because of things like short-term thinking and cheap partisan politics. Pat Brown was a Democrat and Ronald Reagan was a Republican, and yet both of them worked to secure a common vision. Something sadly lacking today.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=zk]There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.[/quote]

zk: I read your response and EconProf’s, and I couldn’t help but think that many of the folks on this board that weigh on in California’s problems and how to solve them, actually haven’t been here all that long.

I was 10 when Jerry Brown first took office in 1975, and just graduating high school when he departed in 1983. I remember my dad, a life-long Democrat, lamenting that Jerry wasn’t at all like his dad Pat (Brown). I was thinking that because one of the posters commented that California didn’t have these problems when the “conservatives” ran the state. Well, Pat Brown was a Democrat and helped implement a blueprint that made California the envy of the country and much of the world when it came to things like education, industry, innovation and business development. Along with Ronald Reagan (as a Republican governor), there was a definite strategy and a plan.

The sad fact is, both Democrats and Republicans have succeeded in wrecking this state, and because of things like short-term thinking and cheap partisan politics. Pat Brown was a Democrat and Ronald Reagan was a Republican, and yet both of them worked to secure a common vision. Something sadly lacking today.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=zk]There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.[/quote]

zk: I read your response and EconProf’s, and I couldn’t help but think that many of the folks on this board that weigh on in California’s problems and how to solve them, actually haven’t been here all that long.

I was 10 when Jerry Brown first took office in 1975, and just graduating high school when he departed in 1983. I remember my dad, a life-long Democrat, lamenting that Jerry wasn’t at all like his dad Pat (Brown). I was thinking that because one of the posters commented that California didn’t have these problems when the “conservatives” ran the state. Well, Pat Brown was a Democrat and helped implement a blueprint that made California the envy of the country and much of the world when it came to things like education, industry, innovation and business development. Along with Ronald Reagan (as a Republican governor), there was a definite strategy and a plan.

The sad fact is, both Democrats and Republicans have succeeded in wrecking this state, and because of things like short-term thinking and cheap partisan politics. Pat Brown was a Democrat and Ronald Reagan was a Republican, and yet both of them worked to secure a common vision. Something sadly lacking today.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=zk]There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.[/quote]

zk: I read your response and EconProf’s, and I couldn’t help but think that many of the folks on this board that weigh on in California’s problems and how to solve them, actually haven’t been here all that long.

I was 10 when Jerry Brown first took office in 1975, and just graduating high school when he departed in 1983. I remember my dad, a life-long Democrat, lamenting that Jerry wasn’t at all like his dad Pat (Brown). I was thinking that because one of the posters commented that California didn’t have these problems when the “conservatives” ran the state. Well, Pat Brown was a Democrat and helped implement a blueprint that made California the envy of the country and much of the world when it came to things like education, industry, innovation and business development. Along with Ronald Reagan (as a Republican governor), there was a definite strategy and a plan.

The sad fact is, both Democrats and Republicans have succeeded in wrecking this state, and because of things like short-term thinking and cheap partisan politics. Pat Brown was a Democrat and Ronald Reagan was a Republican, and yet both of them worked to secure a common vision. Something sadly lacking today.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=zk]There doesn’t seem to be even a desire to work toward a consensus or, in the case of politicians, to work toward actually governing the country. The only goal seems to be to score points against the other side. Vote buying may be a major component of the problems we’ve faced to date, but the problem of point scoring overtaking governing as the main goal of politicians threatens to be just as big a problem in the future.[/quote]

zk: I read your response and EconProf’s, and I couldn’t help but think that many of the folks on this board that weigh on in California’s problems and how to solve them, actually haven’t been here all that long.

I was 10 when Jerry Brown first took office in 1975, and just graduating high school when he departed in 1983. I remember my dad, a life-long Democrat, lamenting that Jerry wasn’t at all like his dad Pat (Brown). I was thinking that because one of the posters commented that California didn’t have these problems when the “conservatives” ran the state. Well, Pat Brown was a Democrat and helped implement a blueprint that made California the envy of the country and much of the world when it came to things like education, industry, innovation and business development. Along with Ronald Reagan (as a Republican governor), there was a definite strategy and a plan.

The sad fact is, both Democrats and Republicans have succeeded in wrecking this state, and because of things like short-term thinking and cheap partisan politics. Pat Brown was a Democrat and Ronald Reagan was a Republican, and yet both of them worked to secure a common vision. Something sadly lacking today.

[Djshakes]

[quote=zk][quote=Djshakes]Let me rant once and a while damn it. It makes me feel manly. I’ll kiss and make up with you in a bit…sexy.[/quote]

It’s unfortunate that the noisiest participants in the American debate today are the least thoughtful. Generally those on either far end of the political spectrum lack the ability to appreciate the complexity, difficulty, subtlety and nuance required to actually make a country or a state work. They have a mantra (“Small Government!” or “We need to help the underprivileged! It’s not their fault!” or whatever) and nothing that doesn’t fit squarely with that motto is accepted, whether it’s what’s required or not. And it’s easy for them to rant and rave because it’s easy to shout slogans and to insult people. But doing what it takes to actually make something work? Leave those hard decisions to the few good politicians we have and then insult them when they try.

I expect it (or at least I should) from participants on a web forum. What’s really unfortunate is that, in far too many cases, our politicians are the same way.[/quote]

The thread hit page four and was already pretty far off of its intended mark. So I got a little slap happy. Big deal. I suggest you read a majority of my posts before making quick snap judgments. I’m reading a lot of whining in your post and little of what you are whining about, suggestions to fix the problem. I just re-read every post you had in this thread and you offered absolutely 0 to the thread other than asking snide questions of other posters diverting responsibility to offer any original though. Contribute or STFU. We have enough whiners on here already.

[Djshakes]

[quote=zk][quote=Djshakes]Let me rant once and a while damn it. It makes me feel manly. I’ll kiss and make up with you in a bit…sexy.[/quote]

It’s unfortunate that the noisiest participants in the American debate today are the least thoughtful. Generally those on either far end of the political spectrum lack the ability to appreciate the complexity, difficulty, subtlety and nuance required to actually make a country or a state work. They have a mantra (“Small Government!” or “We need to help the underprivileged! It’s not their fault!” or whatever) and nothing that doesn’t fit squarely with that motto is accepted, whether it’s what’s required or not. And it’s easy for them to rant and rave because it’s easy to shout slogans and to insult people. But doing what it takes to actually make something work? Leave those hard decisions to the few good politicians we have and then insult them when they try.

I expect it (or at least I should) from participants on a web forum. What’s really unfortunate is that, in far too many cases, our politicians are the same way.[/quote]

The thread hit page four and was already pretty far off of its intended mark. So I got a little slap happy. Big deal. I suggest you read a majority of my posts before making quick snap judgments. I’m reading a lot of whining in your post and little of what you are whining about, suggestions to fix the problem. I just re-read every post you had in this thread and you offered absolutely 0 to the thread other than asking snide questions of other posters diverting responsibility to offer any original though. Contribute or STFU. We have enough whiners on here already.

[Djshakes]

[quote=zk][quote=Djshakes]Let me rant once and a while damn it. It makes me feel manly. I’ll kiss and make up with you in a bit…sexy.[/quote]

It’s unfortunate that the noisiest participants in the American debate today are the least thoughtful. Generally those on either far end of the political spectrum lack the ability to appreciate the complexity, difficulty, subtlety and nuance required to actually make a country or a state work. They have a mantra (“Small Government!” or “We need to help the underprivileged! It’s not their fault!” or whatever) and nothing that doesn’t fit squarely with that motto is accepted, whether it’s what’s required or not. And it’s easy for them to rant and rave because it’s easy to shout slogans and to insult people. But doing what it takes to actually make something work? Leave those hard decisions to the few good politicians we have and then insult them when they try.

I expect it (or at least I should) from participants on a web forum. What’s really unfortunate is that, in far too many cases, our politicians are the same way.[/quote]

The thread hit page four and was already pretty far off of its intended mark. So I got a little slap happy. Big deal. I suggest you read a majority of my posts before making quick snap judgments. I’m reading a lot of whining in your post and little of what you are whining about, suggestions to fix the problem. I just re-read every post you had in this thread and you offered absolutely 0 to the thread other than asking snide questions of other posters diverting responsibility to offer any original though. Contribute or STFU. We have enough whiners on here already.

[Djshakes]

[quote=zk][quote=Djshakes]Let me rant once and a while damn it. It makes me feel manly. I’ll kiss and make up with you in a bit…sexy.[/quote]

It’s unfortunate that the noisiest participants in the American debate today are the least thoughtful. Generally those on either far end of the political spectrum lack the ability to appreciate the complexity, difficulty, subtlety and nuance required to actually make a country or a state work. They have a mantra (“Small Government!” or “We need to help the underprivileged! It’s not their fault!” or whatever) and nothing that doesn’t fit squarely with that motto is accepted, whether it’s what’s required or not. And it’s easy for them to rant and rave because it’s easy to shout slogans and to insult people. But doing what it takes to actually make something work? Leave those hard decisions to the few good politicians we have and then insult them when they try.

I expect it (or at least I should) from participants on a web forum. What’s really unfortunate is that, in far too many cases, our politicians are the same way.[/quote]

The thread hit page four and was already pretty far off of its intended mark. So I got a little slap happy. Big deal. I suggest you read a majority of my posts before making quick snap judgments. I’m reading a lot of whining in your post and little of what you are whining about, suggestions to fix the problem. I just re-read every post you had in this thread and you offered absolutely 0 to the thread other than asking snide questions of other posters diverting responsibility to offer any original though. Contribute or STFU. We have enough whiners on here already.

[Author]

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