South of the Border

[earlyretirement]

[quote=EconProf]Wise words from EarlyRetirement, a guy who has the experience to pass on his wisdom to us.
I agree that for the wealthy family with kids, parts of South America, including Mexico, have big problems with kidnapping, which is why many of them chose to vamoose to the U.S. In fact, many of the wealthy of Tijuana have homes in and around Coronado because of the fear of kidnapping.
But the original thread was regarding retiring in Mexico, presumably for the very non-wealthy American. Just as we can learn from ER’s experience with rich expatriates, we could learn from one of the many American retirees who do not regret their choice. Too bad one of them has not yet chimed in.[/quote]

Oh absolutely EconProf. That’s why I took the time to explain the background of what happened to my friend.

As you mentioned, I know MANY people that have retired to many places in Latin America including Mexico and they enjoy it. Typically the more low profile of a lifestyle you live the better.

However, I know several retirees that are NOT affluent or wealthy and had problems. Even if you are totally fluent in Spanish, most foreigners are still “marked” as “Yankees” and to an extent marked. There are many many many people that successfully retire in places like Mexico and happy with it.

A follow up comment I’d make is that typically life is never as glamorous as you might think. Or the cost of living isn’t nearly the same as what a “local” would spend. People throw out terms like “median” incomes in the area and try to compare themselves to that. However, the Americans are just totally accustomed to another lifestyle.

As well, healthcare isn’t nearly as good or cheap as what some try to portray. Even in countries where they provide “free” healthcare to all, including foreigners….if you really encounter an emergency or need an excellent facility or doctor you’re still going to pay. For example, although I had residency in several countries I was living with or owned homes, I still had private medical insurance that was quite pricey because sure you could get free medical care in a dingy public hospital where it was disgusting and maybe have to wait in line for hours.

So it’s good to think about that side of it as well. Other countries have huge currency risk swings or horrible inflation. So one year when you move it might be cheap, but then a few years of 30% inflation per YEAR it gets expensive rather quickly.

I agree certain parts of Mexico probably would be ideal but even some relatively safer destinations have been known to have problems with drug lords and even some innocent people have gotten swept up in the violence.

I do think if the government can get a handle on the crime it would be a GREAT place to retire. But I think we are a ways from that happening.

I’m not saying there are only negatives about retiring in Mexico or other countries. There are LOTS of benefits as well. Especially if you are older in age and need help.

For example, maids in most of these countries are dirt cheap. So you can have a full time maid or even a live in maid if you wanted. They will clean daily, cook ALL your meals, do ALL your laundry, iron all your shirts, go to the grocery store to get your groceries, take care of paying your bills, etc.

Heck, when I lived down South I not only had a full time maid but I had a chef as well that came in daily and made breakfast, lunch and dinner. That kind of thing even if you are fairly wealthy, you won’t see too much of here in the USA. Although we have maids that come to our house here in SD every week, we wouldn’t dream of having a maid come in every day to clean. It would cost a fortune! Or a chef, etc.

As well I talk about the corruption but sometimes it works to your advantage. For example, get a speeding ticket or run a red light…? NEVER get a ticket… you can always buy your way out of a ticket. I’m not saying I advocate that but it’s just common down south.

As well, I can’t tell you how many 60 or 70 year old friends I have down in Latin America with 20 something year old girlfriends. LOL. So there is that aspect as well that these guys will NEVER find here. And don’t think it’s just “dirty old men”. I’ve seen many older women too with younger “novios” too. LOL. I’ve seen it all down there!

There are good sides and there are negative sides but it’s good to keep both sides in mind.

[flyer]

As many of you who have commented, I’ve had friends who have lived and/or worked in Latin American countries. Several loved it and stayed, most returned to the US.

Even though there are many truly beautiful and inexpensive locales from which to choose, unless it was a matter of necessity, I can’t imagine trading our lives here for a life south of the border.

IMHO, living with millions of dollars in those countries doesn’t offer a lifestyle that would interest me–especially when you factor in all of the extreme negative aspects.

In fact, since we purchased our home in RSF and our investment properties so long ago, it’s really more cost-efficient for us to stay in the US during our retirement years.

[earlyretirement]

Yep. Flyer you make great points. Many like you mentioned stay for a few years but end up coming back to the USA.

The thing is that for many people it seems glamorous or really cost effective which it can be. But after a while many of these people have most of their family or friends back in the USA. So some of them want to move back closer to grandkids, kids, etc.

One piece of advice I’d have for anyone even thinking about it is get totally fluent in the local language. I can’t tell you how many retirees I’ve met down in various countries that never learned Spanish or Portuguese (for Brazil). Lifestyle and quality of life is MUCH better once you learn the language.

It always amazed me when I would meet retirees that moved to X country and lived there for many years and could only say “hola, adios, or cuanto cuesta” in years of living there.

[davelj]

Man, I’ve been a lazy Pigg… first post in four months…

While I think the danger for Americans in Mexico (to specify one country) is over-hyped (as another poster pointed out, most of the murders in Mexico are drug related… although certainly not all of them), it certainly is not as safe as life in most of the US. I do, however, think that we’re going to see a huge number of Americans retiring abroad over the next couple of decades as a result of relative costs.

A few examples.

I was in Panama on business recently but had a couple of days to check out the canal and some of Panama City’s neighborhoods. Lots of expats of all stripes in Panama. There’s a lot of money in Panama, particularly banking-related as it’s a huge offshore banking center. Inexpensive real estate, fully dollarized economy, low crime, great healthcare. Panama City is as modern as any large US metro. You can buy a 3 bed/2 bath 1500 square foot condo in a nice building (less than 10 years old) with a fantastic view for ~$225K. Generally, the cost of living is probably 60% of San Diego’s for a retiree. I distinguish between retirees and “others” because if you move there with a family, for example, you’re probably going to be paying for private school and other stuff retirees can avoid. The biggest drawback is the weather – it’s hotter than balls… and humid. But if you’re a retiree and don’t need to wear a suit anymore… Panama City’s pretty nice. And I think that view is spreading.

La Paz, Mexico. Northeast of Cabo on the Sea of Cortez. Safest municipality in Mexico – very low crime rate, virtually no cartel influence. Hot, desert-like weather much of the year, very little rain. Inexpensive, probably a little cheaper than Panama City (although not nearly as cosmopolitan). You can buy a very nice house or condo for precious little money. Cheap direct flights on Volaris to Tijuana, LA and several other US cities. I’ve vacationed there a few times and love it. If time permitted I could spend half of my year there and be pretty happy.

Closer to the border – and I’ve mentioned this before – Las Playas is very livable. (Las Playas is the section of Tijuana on the Pacific that abuts the border – you pass it on the way to Rosarito if you use the Scenic Route.) Very little crime and all of the modern conveniences without the hassles of Tijuana proper. Lots of expats there. Nice housing, restaurants, etc. Also very inexpensive.

Would I live in any of these places with kids? Nope. But as a singleton with a lot of work/travel flexibility or a retiree? I’d seriously consider it.

[earlyretirement]

davelj,

Yeah, you make some great points. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention about the educational system in many of these places. Definitely if you have kids in many places private schools are almost a must. On the plus side when they are older is many of these countries have FREE Universities that are fairly decent for residents.

No doubt, life as a “singleton” is MUCH easier. I spent much of my single days traveling around South America, Latin American and Mexico. It’s just a wonderful place full of wonderful and warm and caring people for the most part.

Some countries are better than others. Someone mentioned Colombia and things have drastically improved over the years. I remember over a decade ago when I first went there, there weren’t many Americans going. In fact, the US State Department was warning against going there.

I remember when I first went even in major cities like Cali, Bogota, and Medellin I didn’t see many Americans there at all. It was TOTALLY obvious I wasn’t from there but I didn’t have any problems at all. Although it was a bit of a culture shock to see police with machine guns roaming around the public shopping malls to protect the stores. LOL.

It still does have pockets of violence but even when I went over a decade ago, if you were fluent in Spanish even if you were obviously a foreigner, you could mostly avoid problems. But to be fair I’ll say that I have family living there now and several of them have experienced random bouts of violence. One has a bullet lodged in his forehead. A thief came on a bus and robbed everyone and started shooting and he literally has a bullet in his forehead which they say is too dangerous to remove. Yet others got robbed.

In all my travels around the world, I’ve never met more friendly and caring and warm people than in Colombia. Just wonderful genuinely caring people. And absolutely the most beautiful females on the planet!

I think the perfect combination in retirement is having a home base here in the USA but going down for part of the year down in various countries. That way you get the best of both worlds. I do plan to spend a few months in retirement living down South once the kids are older and out of the house and we’re empty nesters.

[moneymaker]

I was at some ones house a couple of weeks ago when the misses gets a phone call and starts freaking out. Evidently her god son (who was kidnapped in TJ 2 weeks earlier) was found dead. Now I didn’t know this guy but she said he lived here in the USA and had just gotten a job right before going down there. Sometimes life sucks!

[FlyerInHi]

I grew up abroad and went to international schools. My peers were kids of diplomats, international businessmen, and other interesting people.

I wouldnt want to trade my experience for a boring high school on the suburbs.

The quality of education was great — better than US high schools. Of course American universities are better especially at the graduate levels.

If wanted a family, I’d marry a beautiful foreign woman, live abroad and spend time in America in the summer and during holidays. That is if the finances make it possible. Not everyone can afford that lifestyle.

[davelj]

[quote=moneymaker]I was at some ones house a couple of weeks ago when the misses gets a phone call and starts freaking out. Evidently her god son (who was kidnapped in TJ 2 weeks earlier) was found dead. Now I didn’t know this guy but she said he lived here in the USA and had just gotten a job right before going down there. Sometimes life sucks![/quote]

This would be a pretty big news story. Even if the family kept quiet during the kidnapping (by order of the kidnappers), the actual murder of a SD resident in TJ would be front-page news. And there would be virtually no way to hide it. Any further information?

[FlyerInHi]

Econrprof is right.
Mexico is a top 10 economy. Big gas and oil resources. For those who can take the risks there will be rewards.

The OC register had an article about buying in Latin America.

[earlyretirement]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I grew up abroad and went to international schools. My peers were kids of diplomats, international businessmen, and other interesting people.

I wouldnt want to trade my experience for a boring high school on the suburbs.

The quality of education was great — better than US high schools. Of course American universities are better especially at the graduate levels.

If wanted a family, I’d marry a beautiful foreign woman, live abroad and spend time in America in the summer and during holidays. That is if the finances make it possible. Not everyone can afford that lifestyle.[/quote]

Oh yes FlyerinHi. There are GREAT international schools but many of these I think you will agree are just as expensive as private schools in the USA. I have many friends and colleagues that send their kids to these international schools and most pay a small fortune sending them there.

No doubt living abroad can be VERY exciting. Some of my best years were spent abroad.

The key really is having a steady stream of cash typically NOT in the currency of that country. So if you can make dollars, Euros, Sterling, etc. you can live VERY well in some of these countries.

Particularly nice is people with pensions, SS payments or guaranteed income in US dollars. The true key is NOT to be tied to that local economy and all the ups and downs.

I mention the downside risks but you’re right there are a LOT of upside and fun as well. Still, most people that I’ve met over the long haul end up back in the USA. But I do know several that live down South and really love it. They have stable pensions or guaranteed cash flow from investment properties, investments, etc. and they are really living the life.

As you correctly mentioned, if you can experience the best of both worlds I think that is ideal. That’s what I plan to do in “true” retirement once the kids are out of the house.

[FlyerInHi]

living abroad is for the culture and the excitement. Otherwise you can live pretty cheap in a small beach town in Florida, Alabama or Texas (and other places that are insourcing destinations).

Some countries don’t allow easy residency unless you are married to a local citizen. So I think it’s better to marry a local who knows how to navigate the local culture.

I grew up abroad near the peak of American power. Back then for my parents being American conferred some extra status. It’s different these days….. But these days you can live abroad and easily stay in touch with American culture. You can watch American movies on first release dates, chat on the net, read online papers, etc… Decades ago it cost a fortune to make long distance calls even inside the country, so overseas phone calls that would last 1/2 hour were out of the question. Now, you have skype and vonage.

I agree that having a foot in both worlds is the best. It opens up your mind. One of my classmates was the daughter of the ambassador of Iran. She would bring us pistachios after every trip home. They even had parties at their residence for the kids So I always thought that Muslims were just like everybody else. I had lots of interesting friends. Too bad that there was no Facebook at the time to keep friendships going after we moved.

It I had kids I would want them to have extensive overseas experience. I would work hard to make it happen. I think that immigrants who still have roots in their home countries are lucky. Their kids will grow up to be the truly globalized generations able to easily move between cultures.

There are lots of new exciting cosmopolitan cities around the world these days. So it’s hard to pick one. I personally wouldn’t want to live in an enclave of American retirees.

Latin culture is warm and fun. I don’t think there are downsides to at least trying it out. You can always decide to go back home stateside.

[Anonymous]

[quote=davelj][quote=moneymaker]I was at some ones house a couple of weeks ago when the misses gets a phone call and starts freaking out. Evidently her god son (who was kidnapped in TJ 2 weeks earlier) was found dead. Now I didn’t know this guy but she said he lived here in the USA and had just gotten a job right before going down there. Sometimes life sucks![/quote]

This would be a pretty big news story. Even if the family kept quiet during the kidnapping (by order of the kidnappers), the actual murder of a SD resident in TJ would be front-page news. And there would be virtually no way to hide it. Any further information?[/quote]

Exactly Dave, this incident probably didn’t really happen. There is a lot of fear monguring about going to Mexico but not many actual documented cases of American tourists or expats being murdured in Baja. As I have before, I challenge somebody to provide a link to an actual case. Last time I challenged the piggs to do this the crickets were chriping loudly.

[earlyretirement]

[quote=FlyerInHi]living abroad is for the culture and the excitement. Otherwise you can live pretty cheap in a small beach town in Florida, Alabama or Texas (and other places that are insourcing destinations).

Some countries don’t allow easy residency unless you are married to a local citizen. So I think it’s better to marry a local who knows how to navigate the local culture.

I grew up abroad near the peak of American power. Back then for my parents being American conferred some extra status. It’s different these days….. But these days you can live abroad and easily stay in touch with American culture. You can watch American movies on first release dates, chat on the net, read online papers, etc… Decades ago it cost a fortune to make long distance calls even inside the country, so overseas phone calls that would last 1/2 hour were out of the question. Now, you have skype and vonage.

I agree that having a foot in both worlds is the best. It opens up your mind. One of my classmates was the daughter of the ambassador of Iran. She would bring us pistachios after every trip home. They even had parties at their residence for the kids So I always thought that Muslims were just like everybody else. I had lots of interesting friends. Too bad that there was no Facebook at the time to keep friendships going after we moved.

It I had kids I would want them to have extensive overseas experience. I would work hard to make it happen. I think that immigrants who still have roots in their home countries are lucky. Their kids will grow up to be the truly globalized generations able to easily move between cultures.

There are lots of new exciting cosmopolitan cities around the world these days. So it’s hard to pick one. I personally wouldn’t want to live in an enclave of American retirees.

Latin culture is warm and fun. I don’t think there are downsides to at least trying it out. You can always decide to go back home stateside.[/quote]

Great post FlyerinHi and I agree. Amazing how technology really changed living abroad and keeping in contact. These days with the technology like Voip phone lines you can have a phone number in most major cities in the world. You mentioned Vonage.com which is GREAT. I have a local # in several cities where we own properties and have family. So they only call a local # and it rings me in San Diego…both them and us with no long-distance charges.

I TOTALLY agree with you about exposing your kids to extensive overseas experiences. We totally agree and we expose our kids to many cultures and travel to many countries. Our kids each have 3 passports including a USA passport.

Having kids born abroad is a GREAT way of automatically having them get residency and a passport in another country plus they can automatically get citizenship and USA passport from the parents.

You’re right that some countries make it VERY difficult to get permanent residency in them. And marriage isn’t a good option for many. LOL. But there are typically ways to gain it. Some countries are easier than others.

[quote=deadzone][quote=davelj][quote=moneymaker]I was at some ones house a couple of weeks ago when the misses gets a phone call and starts freaking out. Evidently her god son (who was kidnapped in TJ 2 weeks earlier) was found dead. Now I didn’t know this guy but she said he lived here in the USA and had just gotten a job right before going down there. Sometimes life sucks![/quote]

This would be a pretty big news story. Even if the family kept quiet during the kidnapping (by order of the kidnappers), the actual murder of a SD resident in TJ would be front-page news. And there would be virtually no way to hide it. Any further information?[/quote]

Exactly Dave, this incident probably didn’t really happen. There is a lot of fear monguring about going to Mexico but not many actual documented cases of American tourists or expats being murdured in Baja. As I have before, I challenge somebody to provide a link to an actual case. Last time I challenged the piggs to do this the crickets were chriping loudly.[/quote]

I have NO way of knowing if this was true or not. I do agree there is a lot of fear mongering. Typically if something happened to a USA citizen you will hear about it. However, there are MANY times when bad things happen to locals and you do NOT hear about it.

You will find many times when families get members “express kidnapped” they don’t dare tell anyone. Why? Because they don’t want to signal to other thieves that they paid the ransom. Because then all you will see is all their family members getting kidnapped over and over. If they are wealthy, they typically move out of the country, like Eduardo Saverin’s (Facebook) parents did.

If you aren’t wealthy you just don’t tell anyone and try to keep a very low profile. But a LOT of crime is NOT reported. But I don’t buy into USA citizens getting murdered and no one hearing about it.

But I think maybe what the OP was talking about was that someone here originally from Mexico that moved to San Diego and had their family members in Mexico were murdered. THAT I can easily believe. Tons of murders in Mexico and other places that you would never hear about.

In fact, I can speak from experience as my wife’s uncle was murdered down South (not in Mexico). He was NOT involved with the drug trade or anything else shady at all. He owned a business. The police couldn’t do anything.

[moneymaker]

I’ve not been to Mexico in years, mostly because I hate waiting in long lines. Here’s a site that seems to report the news that doesn’t seem to get reported http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2013/04/benjamin-arellanos-attorney-gunned-down.html

[desmond]

[quote=deadzone] As I have before, I challenge somebody to provide a link to an actual case. Last time I challenged the piggs to do this the crickets were chriping loudly.[/quote]

You can continue your trips to Baja DZ, but your continued denial of what is going on down there can bring harm to others. Here is a link, I am sure you will make some excuse about it:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-6044922.html

This is the last part of the article:

Chris: Even Tyler still talks about the happy times… still talks about his favorite burrito shop.

Divinia: There were so many times that were good that completely outweigh the bad.

Chris: I know we’ve lost Mexico and we won’t go back… and we’ll leave it at that.

Divinia: It’s just gonna have to be something that was once upon a time for us…

Mexican authorities never investigated the Hall kidnapping.

In 2008, more than 1,000 kidnappings were reported in Mexico; at least 65 of those ended in death.

Desmo writes: Nobody wants to report it, victims, press, tourism departments, etc. The victims just want to get home and never go back.

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