Home › Forums › Financial Markets/Economics › Screw Greece
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November 1, 2011 at 3:01 PM #19258November 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM #731913
urbanrealtor
ParticipantI think their example really underlines the whole problem with unions that are fundamentally trade and monetary in nature.
Essentially, it makes all national debt externally-denominated.
As a believer that monetary sovereignty is key, I find this hobble to be an anathema.
Any time you can borrow money as a country without being able to print it, I think you are pretty much effed in the aye.
November 1, 2011 at 3:48 PM #731916Jazzman
ParticipantSeems a little harsh on what is after all the cradle of Western civilization. But I’ll grant you some Germans may be a little miffed. It’s a wonderful country and people, but much of southern Europe places different emphases on living, and tax dodging is national pastime. Often, the higher the taxes the more the dodging which feeds back into itself …at least that is what it seems.
November 1, 2011 at 3:54 PM #731918Participant[quote=Jazzman]Seems a little harsh on what is after all the cradle of Western civilization. But I’ll grant you some Germans may be a little miffed. It’s a wonderful country and people, but much of southern Europe places different emphases on living, and tax dodging is national pastime. Often, the higher the taxes the more the dodging which feeds back into itself …at least that is what it seems.[/quote]
Dude.
Baghdad is pretty close to the location of the first cities and agricultural development.It is considered the cradle of all civilization and was the land the Jews wandered from.
That didn’t count for shit when they tried to annex Kuwait.
We bombed the bejesus out of them and then went back 12 years later and ruined the country just for good measure.
Now we’re leaving.
If anything Greece is getting off lucky.
November 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM #731928Anonymous
Guest[quote=urbanrealtor]If anything Greece is getting off lucky.[/quote]
Good point and interesting perspective!
November 1, 2011 at 6:15 PM #731937AK
Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=urbanrealtor]If anything Greece is getting off lucky.[/quote]
Good point and interesting perspective![/quote]
Indeed. I guess Aesop’s fable of the grasshopper and the ants is lost on the current generation.
November 1, 2011 at 9:58 PM #731954Participant[quote=urbanrealtor][quote=Jazzman]Seems a little harsh on what is after all the cradle of Western civilization. But I’ll grant you some Germans may be a little miffed. It’s a wonderful country and people, but much of southern Europe places different emphases on living, and tax dodging is national pastime. Often, the higher the taxes the more the dodging which feeds back into itself …at least that is what it seems.[/quote]
Dude.
Baghdad is pretty close to the location of the first cities and agricultural development.It is considered the cradle of all civilization and was the land the Jews wandered from.
That didn’t count for shit when they tried to annex Kuwait.
We bombed the bejesus out of them and then went back 12 years later and ruined the country just for good measure.
Now we’re leaving.
If anything Greece is getting off lucky.[/quote]
Dude, Greece isn’t Iraq which isn’t Mesopotamia and what have the Jews got to do with it LOL. Yes, they are lucky and probably couldn’t give a rat’s ass what some blogger thinks in San Diego.November 1, 2011 at 10:10 PM #731956briansd1
GuestIt’s a little more complex.
Greece enjoyed wealth and purchasing power as part of the Euro.
And Germany’s growth was in great part fueled by other Euro countries enjoying their Euro purchasing power to buy German exports.
Problem is that Greece borrowed away without reforming and building competitiveness even in its tourism industry. A hotel room in Turkey is 1/2 the price as in Greece. So where do the tourist go?
Even if Greece returned to the Drachma, it wouldn’t have much to sell the world but tourism and maybe olives. And Greece would continue to owe the debt in Euros.
[quote=urbanrealtor]
As a believer that monetary sovereignty is key, I find this hobble to be an anathema.
[/quote]Well it depends. Even the USA could benefit from another currency. If Michigan, and Mississipi had separate currencies they could devalue and steal business away from China.
[quote=urbanrealtor]
Any time you can borrow money as a country without being able to print it, I think you are pretty much effed in the aye.[/quote]You have to borrow money in your own currency if you want to be able to print the debt away.
In 1997 we had the Asian financial crisis because they borrowed in US Dollars. When they devalued, their debtors ended up owing a lot more in the local currency. Same goes for Argentina.
Devaluation helped Argentina because they had plenty of commodities to export. What can Greece sell to the world? They’d have to double tourism just to say even.
November 1, 2011 at 10:26 PM #731958GH
ParticipantThe US has a weird dynamic when it comes to ‘printing away” debt since a large percentage of the population are bond holders in the form of Social Security recipients. Of course there is not enough money in the known universe to make good on all these promises, but it is at the very least interesting to see the various factions at work…
Greece… Now that is another matter since the money man is in Germany and France…. Bummer that if you are a government worker.
If I were Greece I would be advertising to folks like me seeking to exit the US with advanced software tech and avoid US super tax…
November 1, 2011 at 11:28 PM #731966Allan from Fallbrook
ParticipantGreece was the sacrificial lamb to buy the ECB more time, pure and simple.
There was/is zero upside for Greece to participate in this “bailout”, which is anything but. Greece has no means of repayment and is taking one hell of a haircut, just to preserve the illusion of European “unity”.
I actually respect what the Greeks are doing now, in terms of telling Merkel and Sarko to go piss up a rope. Good for them. Germany and France could have at least given Greece a cigarette and a blindfold before pushing them in front of the firing squad.
Shit’s gonna get real interesting now.
November 1, 2011 at 11:34 PM #731968jstoesz
ParticipantI love this article.
Democracy is scary to the elites…
Its power in the hands of the uncultured and self interested.
Democracy scares me too, but better to have democratic control of a ineffective entity than no control of an effective entity.
November 2, 2011 at 8:20 AM #731980DomoArigato
Participant[quote=AK]No one made them join the Eurozone. Cut off their emergency loans and they won’t even be able to print ballots for the bailout referendum.[/quote]
Not a big fan of democracy, eh? You must work in finance.
November 2, 2011 at 9:39 AM #731999ParticipantBrian, “a little more complex” … I’d say! I see Mr Papandreou is going for a referendum, which some say is political suicide and apparently jeopardizes the bailout. I can understand the Greek people not wanting to be debt slaves, but the message from Europe seems to be this is not just about them. And they are right, although some Greeks may argue they are a mere porn in the grandiose European scheme of things. They aren’t Germans, that’s for sure.
November 2, 2011 at 11:14 AM #732008Participant[quote=DomoArigato][quote=AK]No one made them join the Eurozone. Cut off their emergency loans and they won’t even be able to print ballots for the bailout referendum.[/quote]
Not a big fan of democracy, eh? You must work in finance.[/quote]
The bigger issue is that serious belt tightening may be better in a broader sense but that there is no real way to vote for pain in a democracy.
From a domestic perspective, it is probably more rational to just default and let the ECB figure out what to do.
I mean its not as if anyone is lending them any more money.
The people who get most screwed in a default are probably not the Greek voters.
That is a point where individual democracy is actually at odds with the broader needs of the combined larger entity.
November 2, 2011 at 11:17 AM #732007Participant[quote=Jazzman]
Dude, Greece isn’t Iraq which isn’t Mesopotamia and what have the Jews got to do with it LOL. Yes, they are lucky and probably couldn’t give a rat’s ass what some blogger thinks in San Diego.[/quote]Iraq is Mesopotamia and the Jews are from there.
The Jewish Mesopotamian heritage is the reason why the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian creation myths are all the similar and are all virtually identical to Mesopotamian Babylonian tradition.The only difference is that Babylonian traditions include a pantheon.
This is still present up through the Saint James Bible where 1st person plural is used heavily.No Greece is not Iraq but my point was that ancient history matters for shit when current issues are pressing. Hussein did not really care about the Jewish Babylonian connection when he was launching Scuds at Israel.
Similarly, as the Greek government flies the EuroPlane right into the mountain, our primary focus won’t be on Alexander the Great or Pythagoras.
And no, random Realtors and bloggers from SD don’t generally amount to a sparrow fart in a maelstrom.
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