Proposition 23

[Allan from Fallbrook]

FLU: 500,000 green jobs? What 500,000 green jobs? No, no, no: According to BigGubment, this has always been about Prop 23 (which none of us were for, if he’d actually bothered to read the replies).

He can’t provide the data, so, like the rest of his Bolshevik co-religionists, he ignores the questions. He knows that, like Prop. 23, he’d get crushed in a fair fight where he actually had to rely on facts and data.

Aside from Prop. 23, I think we also know what’s going to get crushed in the mid-terms. Like IForget and TheBreeze before him, he’ll retreat back to his home under the bridge.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=patb]SD Matt asked about AB 32

ARB shall prepare and approve a scoping plan for achieving the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from sources or categories of sources of greenhouse gases by 2020 (Health and Safety Code (HSC) §38561). The scoping plan, approved by the ARB Board December 12, 2008, provides the outline for actions to reduce greenhouse gases in California. [/quote]

Here’s the link http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/adopted_scoping_plan.pdf

And here’s how CARB operates

Speak out against the science behind these air rules? If you’re a researcher, it might cost you a faculty job at UCLA.

A longtime academic researcher at UCLA may lose his job for speaking out against the California Air Resources Board and that agency’s claims about the dangers of diesel exhaust.

Dr. James Enstrom, who has worked at UCLA for 36 years – the last 34 as associate research professor – may be removed from his position after a secret vote of faculty members in his department.

Enstrom has made headlines in recent years after he questioned claims made by CARB regarding diesel particulate matter and public health.

Enstrom said he likely irked top officials at CARB between 2008 and 2009, when he questioned science used to justify the implementation of CARB’s Truck and Bus rule, also known as the Retrofit Rule. The rule requires trucking fleets to install diesel particulate matter filters and upgrade their truck engines beginning in 2012, though several amendments to the rule are scheduled to be presented this fall.

The rule is estimated to cost trucking companies between $6 and $10 billion.

In December 2009, a scandal emerged when it was revealed that CARB Chairman Mary Nichols told some but not all CARB board members that the agency had learned its top researcher for the Truck and Bus Rule, Hien Tran, had faked his resume and lied repeatedly to his superiors at the air quality agency.

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2010/Aug/082410-exclusive.htm

Now ask yourself how far you trust their technical feasibility and research…

[no_such_reality]

[quote=patb]SD Matt asked about AB 32

ARB shall prepare and approve a scoping plan for achieving the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from sources or categories of sources of greenhouse gases by 2020 (Health and Safety Code (HSC) §38561). The scoping plan, approved by the ARB Board December 12, 2008, provides the outline for actions to reduce greenhouse gases in California. [/quote]

Here’s the link http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/adopted_scoping_plan.pdf

And here’s how CARB operates

Speak out against the science behind these air rules? If you’re a researcher, it might cost you a faculty job at UCLA.

A longtime academic researcher at UCLA may lose his job for speaking out against the California Air Resources Board and that agency’s claims about the dangers of diesel exhaust.

Dr. James Enstrom, who has worked at UCLA for 36 years – the last 34 as associate research professor – may be removed from his position after a secret vote of faculty members in his department.

Enstrom has made headlines in recent years after he questioned claims made by CARB regarding diesel particulate matter and public health.

Enstrom said he likely irked top officials at CARB between 2008 and 2009, when he questioned science used to justify the implementation of CARB’s Truck and Bus rule, also known as the Retrofit Rule. The rule requires trucking fleets to install diesel particulate matter filters and upgrade their truck engines beginning in 2012, though several amendments to the rule are scheduled to be presented this fall.

The rule is estimated to cost trucking companies between $6 and $10 billion.

In December 2009, a scandal emerged when it was revealed that CARB Chairman Mary Nichols told some but not all CARB board members that the agency had learned its top researcher for the Truck and Bus Rule, Hien Tran, had faked his resume and lied repeatedly to his superiors at the air quality agency.

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2010/Aug/082410-exclusive.htm

Now ask yourself how far you trust their technical feasibility and research…

[no_such_reality]

[quote=patb]SD Matt asked about AB 32

ARB shall prepare and approve a scoping plan for achieving the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from sources or categories of sources of greenhouse gases by 2020 (Health and Safety Code (HSC) §38561). The scoping plan, approved by the ARB Board December 12, 2008, provides the outline for actions to reduce greenhouse gases in California. [/quote]

Here’s the link http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/adopted_scoping_plan.pdf

And here’s how CARB operates

Speak out against the science behind these air rules? If you’re a researcher, it might cost you a faculty job at UCLA.

A longtime academic researcher at UCLA may lose his job for speaking out against the California Air Resources Board and that agency’s claims about the dangers of diesel exhaust.

Dr. James Enstrom, who has worked at UCLA for 36 years – the last 34 as associate research professor – may be removed from his position after a secret vote of faculty members in his department.

Enstrom has made headlines in recent years after he questioned claims made by CARB regarding diesel particulate matter and public health.

Enstrom said he likely irked top officials at CARB between 2008 and 2009, when he questioned science used to justify the implementation of CARB’s Truck and Bus rule, also known as the Retrofit Rule. The rule requires trucking fleets to install diesel particulate matter filters and upgrade their truck engines beginning in 2012, though several amendments to the rule are scheduled to be presented this fall.

The rule is estimated to cost trucking companies between $6 and $10 billion.

In December 2009, a scandal emerged when it was revealed that CARB Chairman Mary Nichols told some but not all CARB board members that the agency had learned its top researcher for the Truck and Bus Rule, Hien Tran, had faked his resume and lied repeatedly to his superiors at the air quality agency.

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2010/Aug/082410-exclusive.htm

Now ask yourself how far you trust their technical feasibility and research…

[no_such_reality]

[quote=patb]SD Matt asked about AB 32

ARB shall prepare and approve a scoping plan for achieving the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from sources or categories of sources of greenhouse gases by 2020 (Health and Safety Code (HSC) §38561). The scoping plan, approved by the ARB Board December 12, 2008, provides the outline for actions to reduce greenhouse gases in California. [/quote]

Here’s the link http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/adopted_scoping_plan.pdf

And here’s how CARB operates

Speak out against the science behind these air rules? If you’re a researcher, it might cost you a faculty job at UCLA.

A longtime academic researcher at UCLA may lose his job for speaking out against the California Air Resources Board and that agency’s claims about the dangers of diesel exhaust.

Dr. James Enstrom, who has worked at UCLA for 36 years – the last 34 as associate research professor – may be removed from his position after a secret vote of faculty members in his department.

Enstrom has made headlines in recent years after he questioned claims made by CARB regarding diesel particulate matter and public health.

Enstrom said he likely irked top officials at CARB between 2008 and 2009, when he questioned science used to justify the implementation of CARB’s Truck and Bus rule, also known as the Retrofit Rule. The rule requires trucking fleets to install diesel particulate matter filters and upgrade their truck engines beginning in 2012, though several amendments to the rule are scheduled to be presented this fall.

The rule is estimated to cost trucking companies between $6 and $10 billion.

In December 2009, a scandal emerged when it was revealed that CARB Chairman Mary Nichols told some but not all CARB board members that the agency had learned its top researcher for the Truck and Bus Rule, Hien Tran, had faked his resume and lied repeatedly to his superiors at the air quality agency.

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2010/Aug/082410-exclusive.htm

Now ask yourself how far you trust their technical feasibility and research…

[no_such_reality]

[quote=patb]SD Matt asked about AB 32

ARB shall prepare and approve a scoping plan for achieving the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from sources or categories of sources of greenhouse gases by 2020 (Health and Safety Code (HSC) §38561). The scoping plan, approved by the ARB Board December 12, 2008, provides the outline for actions to reduce greenhouse gases in California. [/quote]

Here’s the link http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/adopted_scoping_plan.pdf

And here’s how CARB operates

Speak out against the science behind these air rules? If you’re a researcher, it might cost you a faculty job at UCLA.

A longtime academic researcher at UCLA may lose his job for speaking out against the California Air Resources Board and that agency’s claims about the dangers of diesel exhaust.

Dr. James Enstrom, who has worked at UCLA for 36 years – the last 34 as associate research professor – may be removed from his position after a secret vote of faculty members in his department.

Enstrom has made headlines in recent years after he questioned claims made by CARB regarding diesel particulate matter and public health.

Enstrom said he likely irked top officials at CARB between 2008 and 2009, when he questioned science used to justify the implementation of CARB’s Truck and Bus rule, also known as the Retrofit Rule. The rule requires trucking fleets to install diesel particulate matter filters and upgrade their truck engines beginning in 2012, though several amendments to the rule are scheduled to be presented this fall.

The rule is estimated to cost trucking companies between $6 and $10 billion.

In December 2009, a scandal emerged when it was revealed that CARB Chairman Mary Nichols told some but not all CARB board members that the agency had learned its top researcher for the Truck and Bus Rule, Hien Tran, had faked his resume and lied repeatedly to his superiors at the air quality agency.

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2010/Aug/082410-exclusive.htm

Now ask yourself how far you trust their technical feasibility and research…

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen][quote no_such_reality]For example, why are super efficient small diesels the norm in Europe? The answer is simple, the fuel expense due to taxes is much higher than here and hence the added cost of the diesel technology ‘pencils’. [/quote]
Actually, not so simple as this. Two primary causes:
1) Power – remember those old Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits? I drove one once. A good way to become a flyspeck on the front of a semi when trying to merge into traffic. Newer turbo-diesels are better.
2) California actually bans them for emissions reasons. The only two diesel cars that have managed to pass CA’s diesel emission regs for cars (which are tougher than truck regs). These are the Volkswagen TDI and a Mercedes. You can get some of the other diesel passenger vehicles in other states (and then import them to CA after 1 year – skirting the ban on sales of the new vehicles in CA.).
3) Cost. Vehicles with diesel engines are priced higher than gasoline. Significantly higher.

I surprised a co-worker when I mentioned that Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler..
http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/%5B/quote%5D

(*Cough* BMW diesels also passed CA emissions. )

Actually, on some brands.. Diesel cars have a eco credit so the cost is almost on par with the gas versions… The X5-35 and X5-35d are roughly the same price after the $3500 eco-credit applied to the x5-35d, ditto could be said about the 335d… And the other thing is because diesel’s aren’t as popular in the US, manufacturers are discounting them more so than the gas version.

There are a few major drawbacks with running diesel however.

1)Limited number of gas stations that have diesel. No so much an issue here in SD, but it’s an issue in L.A. So if you drive long distances, bring a spare tank of gas

2)Some gas stations like to jack up diesel prices just for the sake

3)Most modern diesel requests a special DEF fluid (diesel exhaust fluid) specifically to reduce NOx emissions. This fluid, needs to be filled at regularly, i believe approximately 8000-10000miles (15k miles as BMW is reporting is way too optimistic). On a german performance diesel, this isn’t cheap outside of your included maintanance windows. So if you plan on keeping the car longer than the 3-4 years of warranty (which a good tree hugger should do), you get to pay for the DEF fluid changes after your free maintenance is up (If you happen to own a Mercedes Bluetec product, your SOL and on your own)…

Stealer cost is roughly

BMW: $33/gallon, and the DEF tank is about 6 gallons..BMW includes this in the first 4 year of maintenance, but only if you do the fill up at your scheduled maintenance intervals (if you run low in between maintanance, your SOL and on your own)..

Mercedes Bluetec: No included free maintenance…You’re on your own. Expect to pay $$$$ more than BMW.

Audi: No included free maintenance, unless you buy the optional maintenance package. Then it’s include with the first 4 years. Otherwise you’re on your own. The DEF fluid fill by Audi is approximately 1/2 the cost of BMW.

VW: Included in the first 3 years of maintenance. I believe afterwards, the cost is approximately the same as what an Audi DEF fill would cost…

You could also go aftermarket, roughly $4-5/gal but then need to figure out the fill procedure yourself, which shouldn’t be that hard….

I think it was the PITA factor that deterred me from getting a diesel, despite I came very close to it and despite the better gas mileage….

That brings me to the next point about some of these “green” techs. They will only be adopted en-mass if they are at approximately equal cost-parity and PITA-parity with non-green. Until the cost of gas goes way up, people en-masse aren’t going to be willing to pay extra for green tech, especially in this economy….

Look no further than hybrid cars and what some owners are moaning about the civic hybrid…

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/complaints-from-2006-08-honda-civic-hybrid-owners-still-pouring/

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen][quote no_such_reality]For example, why are super efficient small diesels the norm in Europe? The answer is simple, the fuel expense due to taxes is much higher than here and hence the added cost of the diesel technology ‘pencils’. [/quote]
Actually, not so simple as this. Two primary causes:
1) Power – remember those old Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits? I drove one once. A good way to become a flyspeck on the front of a semi when trying to merge into traffic. Newer turbo-diesels are better.
2) California actually bans them for emissions reasons. The only two diesel cars that have managed to pass CA’s diesel emission regs for cars (which are tougher than truck regs). These are the Volkswagen TDI and a Mercedes. You can get some of the other diesel passenger vehicles in other states (and then import them to CA after 1 year – skirting the ban on sales of the new vehicles in CA.).
3) Cost. Vehicles with diesel engines are priced higher than gasoline. Significantly higher.

I surprised a co-worker when I mentioned that Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler..
http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/%5B/quote%5D

(*Cough* BMW diesels also passed CA emissions. )

Actually, on some brands.. Diesel cars have a eco credit so the cost is almost on par with the gas versions… The X5-35 and X5-35d are roughly the same price after the $3500 eco-credit applied to the x5-35d, ditto could be said about the 335d… And the other thing is because diesel’s aren’t as popular in the US, manufacturers are discounting them more so than the gas version.

There are a few major drawbacks with running diesel however.

1)Limited number of gas stations that have diesel. No so much an issue here in SD, but it’s an issue in L.A. So if you drive long distances, bring a spare tank of gas

2)Some gas stations like to jack up diesel prices just for the sake

3)Most modern diesel requests a special DEF fluid (diesel exhaust fluid) specifically to reduce NOx emissions. This fluid, needs to be filled at regularly, i believe approximately 8000-10000miles (15k miles as BMW is reporting is way too optimistic). On a german performance diesel, this isn’t cheap outside of your included maintanance windows. So if you plan on keeping the car longer than the 3-4 years of warranty (which a good tree hugger should do), you get to pay for the DEF fluid changes after your free maintenance is up (If you happen to own a Mercedes Bluetec product, your SOL and on your own)…

Stealer cost is roughly

BMW: $33/gallon, and the DEF tank is about 6 gallons..BMW includes this in the first 4 year of maintenance, but only if you do the fill up at your scheduled maintenance intervals (if you run low in between maintanance, your SOL and on your own)..

Mercedes Bluetec: No included free maintenance…You’re on your own. Expect to pay $$$$ more than BMW.

Audi: No included free maintenance, unless you buy the optional maintenance package. Then it’s include with the first 4 years. Otherwise you’re on your own. The DEF fluid fill by Audi is approximately 1/2 the cost of BMW.

VW: Included in the first 3 years of maintenance. I believe afterwards, the cost is approximately the same as what an Audi DEF fill would cost…

You could also go aftermarket, roughly $4-5/gal but then need to figure out the fill procedure yourself, which shouldn’t be that hard….

I think it was the PITA factor that deterred me from getting a diesel, despite I came very close to it and despite the better gas mileage….

That brings me to the next point about some of these “green” techs. They will only be adopted en-mass if they are at approximately equal cost-parity and PITA-parity with non-green. Until the cost of gas goes way up, people en-masse aren’t going to be willing to pay extra for green tech, especially in this economy….

Look no further than hybrid cars and what some owners are moaning about the civic hybrid…

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/complaints-from-2006-08-honda-civic-hybrid-owners-still-pouring/

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen][quote no_such_reality]For example, why are super efficient small diesels the norm in Europe? The answer is simple, the fuel expense due to taxes is much higher than here and hence the added cost of the diesel technology ‘pencils’. [/quote]
Actually, not so simple as this. Two primary causes:
1) Power – remember those old Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits? I drove one once. A good way to become a flyspeck on the front of a semi when trying to merge into traffic. Newer turbo-diesels are better.
2) California actually bans them for emissions reasons. The only two diesel cars that have managed to pass CA’s diesel emission regs for cars (which are tougher than truck regs). These are the Volkswagen TDI and a Mercedes. You can get some of the other diesel passenger vehicles in other states (and then import them to CA after 1 year – skirting the ban on sales of the new vehicles in CA.).
3) Cost. Vehicles with diesel engines are priced higher than gasoline. Significantly higher.

I surprised a co-worker when I mentioned that Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler..
http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/%5B/quote%5D

(*Cough* BMW diesels also passed CA emissions. )

Actually, on some brands.. Diesel cars have a eco credit so the cost is almost on par with the gas versions… The X5-35 and X5-35d are roughly the same price after the $3500 eco-credit applied to the x5-35d, ditto could be said about the 335d… And the other thing is because diesel’s aren’t as popular in the US, manufacturers are discounting them more so than the gas version.

There are a few major drawbacks with running diesel however.

1)Limited number of gas stations that have diesel. No so much an issue here in SD, but it’s an issue in L.A. So if you drive long distances, bring a spare tank of gas

2)Some gas stations like to jack up diesel prices just for the sake

3)Most modern diesel requests a special DEF fluid (diesel exhaust fluid) specifically to reduce NOx emissions. This fluid, needs to be filled at regularly, i believe approximately 8000-10000miles (15k miles as BMW is reporting is way too optimistic). On a german performance diesel, this isn’t cheap outside of your included maintanance windows. So if you plan on keeping the car longer than the 3-4 years of warranty (which a good tree hugger should do), you get to pay for the DEF fluid changes after your free maintenance is up (If you happen to own a Mercedes Bluetec product, your SOL and on your own)…

Stealer cost is roughly

BMW: $33/gallon, and the DEF tank is about 6 gallons..BMW includes this in the first 4 year of maintenance, but only if you do the fill up at your scheduled maintenance intervals (if you run low in between maintanance, your SOL and on your own)..

Mercedes Bluetec: No included free maintenance…You’re on your own. Expect to pay $$$$ more than BMW.

Audi: No included free maintenance, unless you buy the optional maintenance package. Then it’s include with the first 4 years. Otherwise you’re on your own. The DEF fluid fill by Audi is approximately 1/2 the cost of BMW.

VW: Included in the first 3 years of maintenance. I believe afterwards, the cost is approximately the same as what an Audi DEF fill would cost…

You could also go aftermarket, roughly $4-5/gal but then need to figure out the fill procedure yourself, which shouldn’t be that hard….

I think it was the PITA factor that deterred me from getting a diesel, despite I came very close to it and despite the better gas mileage….

That brings me to the next point about some of these “green” techs. They will only be adopted en-mass if they are at approximately equal cost-parity and PITA-parity with non-green. Until the cost of gas goes way up, people en-masse aren’t going to be willing to pay extra for green tech, especially in this economy….

Look no further than hybrid cars and what some owners are moaning about the civic hybrid…

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/complaints-from-2006-08-honda-civic-hybrid-owners-still-pouring/

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen][quote no_such_reality]For example, why are super efficient small diesels the norm in Europe? The answer is simple, the fuel expense due to taxes is much higher than here and hence the added cost of the diesel technology ‘pencils’. [/quote]
Actually, not so simple as this. Two primary causes:
1) Power – remember those old Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits? I drove one once. A good way to become a flyspeck on the front of a semi when trying to merge into traffic. Newer turbo-diesels are better.
2) California actually bans them for emissions reasons. The only two diesel cars that have managed to pass CA’s diesel emission regs for cars (which are tougher than truck regs). These are the Volkswagen TDI and a Mercedes. You can get some of the other diesel passenger vehicles in other states (and then import them to CA after 1 year – skirting the ban on sales of the new vehicles in CA.).
3) Cost. Vehicles with diesel engines are priced higher than gasoline. Significantly higher.

I surprised a co-worker when I mentioned that Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler..
http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/%5B/quote%5D

(*Cough* BMW diesels also passed CA emissions. )

Actually, on some brands.. Diesel cars have a eco credit so the cost is almost on par with the gas versions… The X5-35 and X5-35d are roughly the same price after the $3500 eco-credit applied to the x5-35d, ditto could be said about the 335d… And the other thing is because diesel’s aren’t as popular in the US, manufacturers are discounting them more so than the gas version.

There are a few major drawbacks with running diesel however.

1)Limited number of gas stations that have diesel. No so much an issue here in SD, but it’s an issue in L.A. So if you drive long distances, bring a spare tank of gas

2)Some gas stations like to jack up diesel prices just for the sake

3)Most modern diesel requests a special DEF fluid (diesel exhaust fluid) specifically to reduce NOx emissions. This fluid, needs to be filled at regularly, i believe approximately 8000-10000miles (15k miles as BMW is reporting is way too optimistic). On a german performance diesel, this isn’t cheap outside of your included maintanance windows. So if you plan on keeping the car longer than the 3-4 years of warranty (which a good tree hugger should do), you get to pay for the DEF fluid changes after your free maintenance is up (If you happen to own a Mercedes Bluetec product, your SOL and on your own)…

Stealer cost is roughly

BMW: $33/gallon, and the DEF tank is about 6 gallons..BMW includes this in the first 4 year of maintenance, but only if you do the fill up at your scheduled maintenance intervals (if you run low in between maintanance, your SOL and on your own)..

Mercedes Bluetec: No included free maintenance…You’re on your own. Expect to pay $$$$ more than BMW.

Audi: No included free maintenance, unless you buy the optional maintenance package. Then it’s include with the first 4 years. Otherwise you’re on your own. The DEF fluid fill by Audi is approximately 1/2 the cost of BMW.

VW: Included in the first 3 years of maintenance. I believe afterwards, the cost is approximately the same as what an Audi DEF fill would cost…

You could also go aftermarket, roughly $4-5/gal but then need to figure out the fill procedure yourself, which shouldn’t be that hard….

I think it was the PITA factor that deterred me from getting a diesel, despite I came very close to it and despite the better gas mileage….

That brings me to the next point about some of these “green” techs. They will only be adopted en-mass if they are at approximately equal cost-parity and PITA-parity with non-green. Until the cost of gas goes way up, people en-masse aren’t going to be willing to pay extra for green tech, especially in this economy….

Look no further than hybrid cars and what some owners are moaning about the civic hybrid…

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/complaints-from-2006-08-honda-civic-hybrid-owners-still-pouring/

[Coronita]

[quote=ucodegen][quote no_such_reality]For example, why are super efficient small diesels the norm in Europe? The answer is simple, the fuel expense due to taxes is much higher than here and hence the added cost of the diesel technology ‘pencils’. [/quote]
Actually, not so simple as this. Two primary causes:
1) Power – remember those old Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits? I drove one once. A good way to become a flyspeck on the front of a semi when trying to merge into traffic. Newer turbo-diesels are better.
2) California actually bans them for emissions reasons. The only two diesel cars that have managed to pass CA’s diesel emission regs for cars (which are tougher than truck regs). These are the Volkswagen TDI and a Mercedes. You can get some of the other diesel passenger vehicles in other states (and then import them to CA after 1 year – skirting the ban on sales of the new vehicles in CA.).
3) Cost. Vehicles with diesel engines are priced higher than gasoline. Significantly higher.

I surprised a co-worker when I mentioned that Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler..
http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/%5B/quote%5D

(*Cough* BMW diesels also passed CA emissions. )

Actually, on some brands.. Diesel cars have a eco credit so the cost is almost on par with the gas versions… The X5-35 and X5-35d are roughly the same price after the $3500 eco-credit applied to the x5-35d, ditto could be said about the 335d… And the other thing is because diesel’s aren’t as popular in the US, manufacturers are discounting them more so than the gas version.

There are a few major drawbacks with running diesel however.

1)Limited number of gas stations that have diesel. No so much an issue here in SD, but it’s an issue in L.A. So if you drive long distances, bring a spare tank of gas

2)Some gas stations like to jack up diesel prices just for the sake

3)Most modern diesel requests a special DEF fluid (diesel exhaust fluid) specifically to reduce NOx emissions. This fluid, needs to be filled at regularly, i believe approximately 8000-10000miles (15k miles as BMW is reporting is way too optimistic). On a german performance diesel, this isn’t cheap outside of your included maintanance windows. So if you plan on keeping the car longer than the 3-4 years of warranty (which a good tree hugger should do), you get to pay for the DEF fluid changes after your free maintenance is up (If you happen to own a Mercedes Bluetec product, your SOL and on your own)…

Stealer cost is roughly

BMW: $33/gallon, and the DEF tank is about 6 gallons..BMW includes this in the first 4 year of maintenance, but only if you do the fill up at your scheduled maintenance intervals (if you run low in between maintanance, your SOL and on your own)..

Mercedes Bluetec: No included free maintenance…You’re on your own. Expect to pay $$$$ more than BMW.

Audi: No included free maintenance, unless you buy the optional maintenance package. Then it’s include with the first 4 years. Otherwise you’re on your own. The DEF fluid fill by Audi is approximately 1/2 the cost of BMW.

VW: Included in the first 3 years of maintenance. I believe afterwards, the cost is approximately the same as what an Audi DEF fill would cost…

You could also go aftermarket, roughly $4-5/gal but then need to figure out the fill procedure yourself, which shouldn’t be that hard….

I think it was the PITA factor that deterred me from getting a diesel, despite I came very close to it and despite the better gas mileage….

That brings me to the next point about some of these “green” techs. They will only be adopted en-mass if they are at approximately equal cost-parity and PITA-parity with non-green. Until the cost of gas goes way up, people en-masse aren’t going to be willing to pay extra for green tech, especially in this economy….

Look no further than hybrid cars and what some owners are moaning about the civic hybrid…

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/complaints-from-2006-08-honda-civic-hybrid-owners-still-pouring/

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Greetings close-minded idealogues! What a fabulous day this is! Proposition 23 was not just defeated, it was destroyed.

The big, evil, dirty, Texas oil companies are on the run. I guess they even got word that all it took to turn a California voter against Proposition 23 was to tell them that the Prop was funded by BIG-EVIL-DIRTY Texas oil:

By the end of September, grassroots activists had successfully turned voters against the measure by branding the Yes on 23 campaign as being bought and paid for by the Texas oil companies, which prompted the oil companies to go on the defensive and freeze all funding to the campaign.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/02/grassroots-no-on-prop-23-_n_777785.html?ir=Los+Angeles

I participated in several calling parties that helped to turn the tide (quite massively, I might add) against Proposition 23. It was a great feeling telling voters about who was really behind Proposition 23 and using the oil company donations against them.

We can now all look forward to a cleaner, greener California with gobs of green energy jobs for all. You’re Welcome.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Greetings close-minded idealogues! What a fabulous day this is! Proposition 23 was not just defeated, it was destroyed.

The big, evil, dirty, Texas oil companies are on the run. I guess they even got word that all it took to turn a California voter against Proposition 23 was to tell them that the Prop was funded by BIG-EVIL-DIRTY Texas oil:

By the end of September, grassroots activists had successfully turned voters against the measure by branding the Yes on 23 campaign as being bought and paid for by the Texas oil companies, which prompted the oil companies to go on the defensive and freeze all funding to the campaign.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/02/grassroots-no-on-prop-23-_n_777785.html?ir=Los+Angeles

I participated in several calling parties that helped to turn the tide (quite massively, I might add) against Proposition 23. It was a great feeling telling voters about who was really behind Proposition 23 and using the oil company donations against them.

We can now all look forward to a cleaner, greener California with gobs of green energy jobs for all. You’re Welcome.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Greetings close-minded idealogues! What a fabulous day this is! Proposition 23 was not just defeated, it was destroyed.

The big, evil, dirty, Texas oil companies are on the run. I guess they even got word that all it took to turn a California voter against Proposition 23 was to tell them that the Prop was funded by BIG-EVIL-DIRTY Texas oil:

By the end of September, grassroots activists had successfully turned voters against the measure by branding the Yes on 23 campaign as being bought and paid for by the Texas oil companies, which prompted the oil companies to go on the defensive and freeze all funding to the campaign.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/02/grassroots-no-on-prop-23-_n_777785.html?ir=Los+Angeles

I participated in several calling parties that helped to turn the tide (quite massively, I might add) against Proposition 23. It was a great feeling telling voters about who was really behind Proposition 23 and using the oil company donations against them.

We can now all look forward to a cleaner, greener California with gobs of green energy jobs for all. You’re Welcome.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Greetings close-minded idealogues! What a fabulous day this is! Proposition 23 was not just defeated, it was destroyed.

The big, evil, dirty, Texas oil companies are on the run. I guess they even got word that all it took to turn a California voter against Proposition 23 was to tell them that the Prop was funded by BIG-EVIL-DIRTY Texas oil:

By the end of September, grassroots activists had successfully turned voters against the measure by branding the Yes on 23 campaign as being bought and paid for by the Texas oil companies, which prompted the oil companies to go on the defensive and freeze all funding to the campaign.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/02/grassroots-no-on-prop-23-_n_777785.html?ir=Los+Angeles

I participated in several calling parties that helped to turn the tide (quite massively, I might add) against Proposition 23. It was a great feeling telling voters about who was really behind Proposition 23 and using the oil company donations against them.

We can now all look forward to a cleaner, greener California with gobs of green energy jobs for all. You’re Welcome.

[Author]

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