OT: Safety is an Illusion

[scaredyclassic]

250,000 a year alimony. she should have been spending more time arranging her portfolio, not her gun colelction….

[NotCranky]

The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.

[scaredyclassic]

it’s in the american brain, though, right…burn notice….homeland….we are all secret operatives now…

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]I think folks, you’re missing the point. Doesn’t matter what type of gun was used. The point is, the wrong person had access to it….And there’s no amount of legislation that’s going to prevent that from happening.

What the mother was thinking is beyond me…

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/16/us/connecticut-nancy-lanza-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Warning signs that the kid was in the process of being a social misfit already shown. I don’t know, but seems like the mother was either in denial that her son had a problem or that she so out of touch with keeping a bunch of guns in the house with a home-schooled pseudo-sociopath would pose a danger to society….On top of that, she ok’ed her son’s gun hobby????

Um, sorry I hate people who say “society failed this person” or some crap like that. Society didn’t fail… That mother failed…first as a responsible parent and second as a responsible citizen and third as general common-sense human being. And now 26 people are dead because of her.She might as well pulled the trigger herself, because she sure as hell enabled her psuedo-psycho son to do it. And surprising, some people will probably try to argue that it’s not her mother’s fault at all….She fvcked up..Bigtime.

I guess we’ll just have to put up with it…Because no amount of legislation/laws/rules will regulate stupidity, unless we’re talking about a full complete ban (which I’m not particular fond of myself)….[/quote]

We ultimately have the perfect storm in play:
–limited mental health access and continued social stigma
–distrust of doctors and medications
–proliferation of violent and graphic and increasingly realistic video games and movies
–increased firepower at reduced cost and increased firearm availability

Essentially, a mentally disturbed individual has easier access to guns and ammo than psychotherapy and meds.

[NotCranky]

[quote=squat300]it’s in the american brain, though, right…burn notice….homeland….we are all secret operatives now…[/quote]
Don’t tell anyone where I have my anti-drone shit hidden…saving it for the government.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, of the 12,664 murders last year, only 323 were killed by rifles.

So before we get our knickers in a twist over assault rifles, maybe we should look at the actual stats concerning gun deaths in this country and what ACTUAL weapons are used.

Now back to your regularly scheduled hysteria.

[NotCranky]

I don’t need to do that to know that using them to fight the government is rediculous. The idea of using any guns to fight OUR government IN THIS ERA is nuts…

When our great constitution was written a gun was what? Nothing like weapons of today. That matters.

[Coronita]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu]I think folks, you’re missing the point. Doesn’t matter what type of gun was used. The point is, the wrong person had access to it….And there’s no amount of legislation that’s going to prevent that from happening.

What the mother was thinking is beyond me…

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/16/us/connecticut-nancy-lanza-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Warning signs that the kid was in the process of being a social misfit already shown. I don’t know, but seems like the mother was either in denial that her son had a problem or that she so out of touch with keeping a bunch of guns in the house with a home-schooled pseudo-sociopath would pose a danger to society….On top of that, she ok’ed her son’s gun hobby????

I’m not suggesting lock the dude up because he had autism..Far from it…BUT, serious, put a firearms in his hand? That’s just fvcking insane…

Um, sorry I hate people who say “society failed this person” or some crap like that. Society didn’t fail… That mother failed…first as a responsible parent and second as a responsible citizen and third as general common-sense human being. And now 26 people are dead because of her.She might as well pulled the trigger herself, because she sure as hell enabled her psuedo-psycho son to do it. And surprising, some people will probably try to argue that it’s not her mother’s fault at all….She fvcked up..Bigtime.

I guess we’ll just have to put up with it…Because no amount of legislation/laws/rules will regulate stupidity, unless we’re talking about a full complete ban (which I’m not particular fond of myself)….[/quote]

We ultimately have the perfect storm in play:
–limited mental health access and continued social stigma
–distrust of doctors and medications
–proliferation of violent and graphic and increasingly realistic video games and movies
–increased firepower at reduced cost and increased firearm availability

Essentially, a mentally disturbed individual has easier access to guns and ammo than psychotherapy and meds.[/quote]

OCR, I have the utmost respect for you.. But I have to say, this is where I vehemently disagree with you in this particular case.

Access to lack off access to psychotherapy and meds clearly was NOT an issue in this person’s case. For god’s sake, the mother’s ex was a Director at GE living in Stamford,CT paying a $289k+/year alimony with cost of living adjustments until 2023, as well as all the medical/doctor expenses that would be incurred…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/nancy-lanza-peter-lanza-divorce_n_2316461.html

And clearly there were signs of “something” up mentally. Ok, autism by itself isn’t an indicator of someone going postal, but clearly wouldn’t any parent that recognizes that their child have some mental issue, at least think twice about putting guns into the kids hands? I mean, it’s like taking a kid that has epiletic seizures to drive without first completing the diagnosis to see how severe it is.. Parent clearly didn’t exercise good judgment into placing guns into the kid’s hand…
And furthermore, exercised extremely poor judgement in cultivating a gun hobby. End result is 26 people non-sensically dead…6-7 year old kids that absolutely had no chance because they probably didn’t even know what the heck was going on.

What this asshole did is worse than any terrorist, foreign or domestic. And folks probably think society failed them…It goes along with everything wrong these day….

Individuals failing to take personal responsibility for there action, and a government that doesn’t emphasis the “personal” part in responsibility… Just like how “personal” financial responsibility, or lack there of…

If there’s an epidemic, I would say it’s that. People no longer willing to take responsibility for their own actions, but rather blame everyone else for it…

“Oh no, we need to save the people that just commited these attrocious acts. They need the best medical care. We can reform them (after they killed XX+ innocent people)”

…I’d say fvck them.. Let them fry. Let God sort it out. My feelings now are exactly how I would feel if I was the parent of one of the 26 victims of this senseless act.

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, of the 12,664 murders last year, only 323 were killed by rifles.

So before we get our knickers in a twist over assault rifles, maybe we should look at the actual stats concerning gun deaths in this country and what ACTUAL weapons are used.

Now back to your regularly scheduled hysteria.[/quote]

323 lives per year is not insignificant – especially if the only cost involved is loss of thrill for some and some vague notional loss of “freedom” for others.

Consider this, from 2001-2012 probably 3100 lives were lost on the US soil to terrorism – which is 250/year on average. Yet we went to 2 wars, occupied two countries, have drones flying in 6, spent $1T or more, have our civil liberties curtailed with TSA and patriot act…. Why should we dismiss lives of these 323 so lightly?

Ultimately even 1 life is too high a price to pay if the only cost to pay is discrediting of some dogma!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Blogstar]I don’t need to do that to know that using them to fight the government is rediculous. The idea of using any guns to fight OUR government IN THIS ERA is nuts…

When our great constitution was written a gun was what? Nothing like weapons of today. That matters.[/quote]

Russ: I’m not advocating ownership of assault rifles to fight the federal government. I was simply using actual statistics as a counterpoint to the hand-wringing lamentations regarding ownership of weapons that inarguably are NOT responsible for a statistically significant percentage of people in a given year and thus banning such weapons would have a negligible effect, at best.

This is borne out by FBI and DOJ studies on the Clinton-era ban on assault rifles and high-capacity magazines, which showed the ineffectiveness of the ban. Connecticut has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. So does Chicago. There were 192 shootings in Chicago last week alone.

This debate, as it were, is devoid of facts and evidence and driven by emotionality. There have been some excellent studies that also show that guns are not the leading weapon in violent deaths. Grant Duwe at Minnesota’s Department of Corrections did one such study and it’s well worth a read if you want to use real facts and evidence.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, of the 12,664 murders last year, only 323 were killed by rifles.

So before we get our knickers in a twist over assault rifles, maybe we should look at the actual stats concerning gun deaths in this country and what ACTUAL weapons are used.

Now back to your regularly scheduled hysteria.[/quote]

323 lives per year is not insignificant – especially if the only cost involved is loss of thrill for some and some vague notional loss of “freedom” for others.

Consider this, from 2001-2012 probably 3100 lives were lost on the US soil to terrorism – which is 250/year on average. Yet we went to 2 wars, occupied two countries, have drones flying in 6, spent $1T or more, have our civil liberties curtailed with TSA and patriot act…. Why should we dismiss lives of these 323 so lightly?

Ultimately even 1 life is too high a price to pay if the only cost to pay is discrediting of some dogma![/quote]

Enron: Reading your post, your second paragraph effectively rebuts your first paragraph.

To wit, you argue in your first regarding a “notional” loss of freedoms, but explicate an ACTUAL loss of freedoms (e.g. Patriot Act, TSA) in your second.

So, on one hand, you make the point that the US Government is indeed taking away civil rights and liberties, but we should trust this same government to limit gun ownership and based on nothing more than your dislike of semi-automatic rifles?

[CA renter]

[quote=ucodegen][quote=craptcha][quote=ucodegen] Safety measures that mandated parents signing in, etc. How did he get past these? A perv could also go past these same security measures to ‘snatch’ a kid.
[/quote]

He used the gun.[/quote]Umm.. how did he get past the locked door??? They had to first let him in, if the supposed security measures were in effect.[/quote]

From what I understand, he shot his way through the glass door at the front of the school.

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]access to lack off access to psychotherapy and meds clearly was NOT an issue in this person’s case. For god’s sake, the mother’s ex was a Director at GE living in Stamford,CT paying a $289k+/year alimony with cost of living adjustments until 2023, as well as all the medical/doctor expenses that would be incurred…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/nancy-lanza-peter-lanza-divorce_n_2316461.html

And clearly there were signs of “something” up mentally. Ok, autism by itself isn’t an indicator of someone going postal, but clearly wouldn’t any parent that recognizes that their child have some mental issue, at least think twice about putting guns into the kids hands? I mean, it’s like taking a kid that has epiletic seizures to drive without first completing the diagnosis to see how severe it is.. Parent clearly didn’t exercise good judgment into placing guns into the kid’s hand…
And furthermore, exercised extremely poor judgement in cultivating a gun hobby. End result is 26 people non-sensically dead…6-7 year old kids that absolutely had no chance because they probably didn’t even know what the heck was going on.

What this asshole did is worse than any terrorist, foreign or domestic. And folks probably think society failed them…It goes along with everything wrong these day….

Individuals failing to take personal responsibility for there action, and a government that doesn’t emphasis the “personal” part in responsibility… Just like how “personal” financial responsibility, or lack there of…

If there’s an epidemic, I would say it’s that. People no longer willing to take responsibility for their own actions, but rather blame everyone else for it…

“Oh no, we need to save the people that just commited these attrocious acts. They need the best medical care. We can reform them (after they killed XX+ innocent people)”

…I’d say fvck them.. Let them fry. Let God sort it out. My feelings now are exactly how I would feel if I was the parent of one of the 26 victims of this senseless act.[/quote]

By no means was I trying to imply there was no fault involving the mother or the murderer. These two were ultimately fully responsible. I don’t think society failed him at all.

I do believe that when we have these events over and over, we have to look at the larger environment that is creating these monsters.

I stand by my assessment of the recipe for creation of these monsters. Bottom line, there has always been crazies throughout the ages, but what makes our crazies into monsters with means to put an average of 10 bullets in each little kid within matter of minutes? Such is the question.

Just because one has coverage to psychiatry doesn’t mean it was utilized. Of course it was the mom and the murderer’s responsibility to seek care, but why didn’t they seek the care? That question needs to be addressed. What about role of violent video games and movies? Again, the brain of a normal person may not be susceptible, but what about the autistic or asperger brain? Then there’s the weapon of choice. What is the benefit to our society of the assault weapons? What’s the risk?

These questions do not absolve the murderer and his mom any responsibility, but these questions do at least get us down the road to stopping the epidemic.

[KIBU]

This town has a culture of gun, also some common sense public safety measure proposed was shot down by gun control opponents in the past.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/us/newtown-gun-control/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The NRA is keeping a low profile:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/tech/social-media/nra-social-media-silence/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

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