- This topic has 444 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 11 months ago by
scaredyclassic.
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April 24, 2015 at 6:21 AM #785248April 24, 2015 at 6:37 AM #785252
scaredyclassic
Participanti guess it depends on what is appropriate. it does involve child rape by an african waroord and other touchy sexual issues, but all in a tasteful, menaingful way. I’d say it’s ok for 13 and up. but…i wouldnt rely on my opinion, becaus ei may be way out of the mainstream here. ive only read the script, and it was howlingly funny.
April 24, 2015 at 6:43 AM #785253Participantare there things we don’t know?
almost certainly.
Most religions are not about that. They define G-d in a way in which G-d directly relates to human affairs in a personally interested way.
what’s the point o f worshipping something that is unaware you exist in any sort of interested way? you get nothing.
perhaps justa religion based on sheer wonder, humbless and a sense of our own enormous ignorance. But that wouldnt be very exicting and i bet the ecollection plate wouldnt fill up quick you could just take a walk and stare at the sky for the same effect.
all the religions we think of where people gather to worship someone who can change the courseof human events, based on all available historical evidence, is delusional. i dont mean that in a bad way. i think it’s useful to have all sorts of delusions, as some level of deludedness helps one get through life. might help build successful empires … i’m sure i am riddled through with delusions myself.
April 24, 2015 at 6:47 AM #785254Participantps. when we die, neither your dog nor you go to heaven or continues in any spirit form. but it might be useful to believe you and your dog and your cat do. but…you don’t…i acknowledge i could be deluded in this actual, firm, completely certain belief. But I know beyond all doubts I am capable of conceiving that you do not. I dont have “faith” that this is a true stetment. I know it, in the sense that i know i am awake and eating yogurt.
April 24, 2015 at 8:11 AM #785261zk
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]
On the other hand, i think religion is a useful andgood thing, and that it’s worthwhile to try to have people, particularly young people, participate in it and to get some of them to believe for at least as long as we can. It has some good effects. it’s calming. It kind of gives a sense of meaning and purpose. it explains reality for people in interesting, layered, resonant stories.. it specializes in boundaries. it lays down rules. it provides tradition, ritual and fellowship. it’s GOOD….i like em all. muslims, christians, jews, mormons, miscellany, whatever ya got…
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I get what you’re saying. Parts of it can be good. But it allows people to claim things that are completely irrational and have no basis in fact. And once you allow people to do that, they stop having to show any common sense or rational reason for what they’re doing. And they can claim anything they want and say it’s in the name of their god. And they can delude themselves into thinking that homosexuality is an abomination or that their neighbors should be murdered in some situations. And when you say to them, “but…” they can say, “my god told me this. I don’t need to listen to any logical arguments. I don’t need a common sense approach. I only need to follow the word of my god.”
Granted, common sense and logic are not perfect. But, using them, things can be debated and honed. Arguments can be kept up to date with the latest knowledge. Evidence is free to be scrutinized. All the facts can be considered.
April 24, 2015 at 8:18 AM #785264
CoronitaParticipantAnyone else find the irony that often times (not always, but often times) you hear a person that doesn’t believe in God also gives you a nice lecture about “karma”?
It usually goes something like. “You better be nice to others otherwise karma is going to pay you back” or something along the line….
I don’t get people that don’t believe in God but believe in karma. It’s just funny imho.
April 24, 2015 at 10:58 AM #785260Participant[quote=CA renter]
You’ve stated and/or implied that anyone who believes in a god/higher power is delusional,
[/quote]What I said was that people have delusions all the time. I said that in response to this:
“ There are many people who would swear on their firstborns’ lives that they have seen evidence of reincarnation or some sort of miracle that justifies their beliefs, too. Some things cannot be explained by science as we know it.”
You seem to think that somebody’s “vision,” or whatever they’ve seen, is evidence of god. I’m saying that it was a delusion. I’m saying that if there’s real evidence, it won’t just apply inside one person’s head.
What I think of religious people is that they are unable to see reality as the evidence presents it rather than how they want to see it.
Delusions is how I describe the things you say people have seen, but which there is apparently no evidence of other than their “vision.”
[quote=CA renter]
that they don’t live in “reality” because if their experiences and opinions don’t jive with yours.
[/quote]
Because their experiences and opinions don’t jive with mine? That’s not why I think they’re having trouble accepting reality. I think they’re having trouble accepting reality because they believe in something that there’s no evidence of other than what’s in their head.CA renter, do you think the guy whose god is Goldie is living in reality?
[quote=CA renter]You’ve said that they are intellectually inferior,
[/quote]
You are exasperating. We’ve had this discussion already.
I challenge you to show me where I said that.
[quote=CA renter]suffer delusions, see hallucinations,
[/quote]
See above about delusions[quote=CA renter]
and can’t accept scientific proof of something…whatever that’s supposed to be, I’m not sure.
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I haven’t used the word proof. In this entire thread. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about.[quote=CA renter]
I’m not making anything up. You’re implying these things in your posts, if not stating them directly. See here, too…
[/quote]Ok.
You said or implied that I said that people who believe in god are intellectually inferior. Show me where I said or implied that.
You said or implied that I was insisting that there is absolutely no god. Show me where I said or implied that.
If you can’t show me where I said or implied those things, you’re making stuff up.
[quote=CA renter]If this is not what you’re trying to say, then what, exactly, are you trying to say or imply?
[/quote]
I’ll summarize:
There is basically no evidence for god. Anybody who believes in god believes in god because they (very much) want to. This desire to believe in god is strong enough that, because of a flaw they have (not necessarily an intellectual flaw – more of an emotional one), they are unable to see that reality, as it presents itself with evidence, does not support more than the tiniest likelihood of there actually being a god.[quote=CA renter]
Evidence of what, exactly? Evolution?
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Evidence about how the universe is. If there’s no evidence that the stuff in your hand that looks like dirt is gold, but you believe that it’s gold, then you’re not believing what the evidence tells you. If you believe that there’s a god despite a lack of any evidence, then you’re not believing what the evidence tells you.[quote=CA renter]
Do you honestly believe that all spiritual/religious/spiritual-agnostic people think that the earth was created in six earth days?
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No. Of course not. Why would you think I think that?[quote=CA renter]
Specifically, what evidence are you referring to that would make spiritual people delusional or unwilling to accept scientific facts? I hope you realize that spiritualism includes ideas and beliefs that go far beyond theories about the origin of the universe.
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I’m not talking about evidence for something. I talking about lack of evidence for something. If there’s no evidence for something, but you believe in it anyway because you want to, then that’s not basing your estimation of reality on evidence. That’s basing your estimation of reality on what you want it to be.[quote=CA renter]
Perhaps you and I don’t have the same ideas about what spiritualism/religion/belief in a higher power means. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to be claiming that God/a higher power doesn’t exist, and that anyone who believes in a god/higher power can’t accept that science somehow contradicts their beliefs (please explain how it contradicts a person’s belief in a higher power/god, as I have yet to read about any scientific studies that would claim to do so).
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You’re wrong. I’m not claiming a god doesn’t exist. I’m saying there’s no evidence for one.
[quote=CA renter]And when I talk about people’s experiences and knowledge, I’m talking about very REAL, physical experiences, often with multiple witnesses. They are not delusional, nor are they experiencing hallucinations.
[/quote]
Virtually every claim of witnessing a “miracle” can be easily debunked. Unless you want to believe it so bad that you look askew at the evidence. Add up all the “miracles” that have held up to scientific scrutiny, if you can find any, and the evidence for an omnipotent being comes up next to nothing.
[quote=CA renter]It’s sad that you think that people who don’t believe as you do have something wrong with them, or that they are intellectually inferior (you made a similar statement on the vaccination thread which appeared to be aimed at me, too, which is why I had to mention the IQ thing in response to your ridiculous assertion — something I do not like to do). [/quote]
For someone who claims to have such a high IQ, you sure don’t read very well. I did not call you or anyone else intellectually inferior. In this thread or that one.[quote=CA renter]
Many people who are far, far more intelligent than you (not claiming to be one of those people, though that’s entirely possible, too) will have different opinions than you do. It’s neither good nor bad; just a fact. It doesn’t make them any less intelligent or accepting of facts than you.
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What about the guy who’s god is Goldie? Is he less accepting of the facts than you, CA renter?[quote=CA renter]
I’m not making anything up,
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Then show me where I called anyone intellectually inferior. And show me where I said there’s absolutely no god.
[quote=CA renter]and I would never have to do anything of the sort to “help me keep up with you.” I do just fine as it is.
[/quote]
We’ll just have to agree do disagree on that.
[quote=CA renter]
Perhaps you’re not making yourself clear enough regarding your assertion that religious/spiritual people are delusional and ignorant when it comes to science. You’ve used no facts, evidence, or logic to back up your claims, just name-called. You’re not making a compelling argument.
[/quote]
Perhaps I hadn’t been clear enough for you. As I said above, I claim no evidence that there’s no god. Such evidence wouldn’t even be possible. I’m saying that there is basically no evidence that there is a god, and I’m saying that to believe it would require both a strong desire to believe it and an emotional flaw which results in a person believing what he wants to believe rather than what the evidence shows.
[quote=CA renter]Instead of trying to make personal attacks,
[/quote]If you don’t make stuff up, I won’t attack you.
[quote=CA renter]why not specify and define the differences of opinions and use evidence (not just claiming that people are foolish or delusional…that’s no more scientific or factual than claiming that the earth was created in six days) to support your position(s) and/or refute the other debater’s position(s). That would be more productive.[/quote]
As I said, evidence that there’s no god is impossible. There is basically no evidence for god. If a person claims to believe something outrageous for which there is no evidence, we view him as though there’s something wrong with him. Unless that belief involves god. In which case we say, “oh, yeah. He believes in a supernatural, universe-encompassing, omnipotent, magical being in the sky for which there’s no evidence. Ok, that’s fine. He’s ok. Nothing to see here.”
April 24, 2015 at 5:49 PM #785282Participant[quote=flu]Anyone else find the irony that often times (not always, but often times) you hear a person that doesn’t believe in God also gives you a nice lecture about “karma”?
It usually goes something like. “You better be nice to others otherwise karma is going to pay you back” or something along the line….
I don’t get people that don’t believe in God but believe in karma. It’s just funny imho.[/quote]
true dat. i guess its the secular religion nowadays. i definitely dont beleive in karma or cosmic justice or what goes around comes around.
but it sure does seem like people are often responsible for their own downfalls.
April 24, 2015 at 8:27 PM #785286NotCranky
ParticipantMy eight year old told me his coach told him to learn the pledge. I told him to tell his coach , thanks but no thanks. They go to play baseball not make pledges to this make believe G-D. I think the coach means well, wants my boy to have a chance to lead the other sheep, they take turns being little pastors at little league games. He is a great guy. His kids don’t have names for the bible.
My other kids added that they get “ZAPS” if the don’t say the pledge of the allegiance. I said go ahead and get the “ZAPS” I’ll take care of it. They said most kids make a parody of it but just don’t speak very loudly.
So while worrying about whether or not God exists may be dumb but worrying about what kind of standing the make believe Big Fella has in our society and who is propping him up, well that’s more complex.I never put my kid in church , thought about it based on comments from piggs many years ago, for about a nanosecond. I believe actions speak louder than words and that if there is a God he probably hears pretty well. Doesn’t give a damn about religion. A child’s real church is how his parents and others around him or her act. Why teach them anything that you have to say isn’t real later? Especially something that is so loaded with problems.
I am all for teaching kids about religions in a survey sort of format. We do that all the time.
April 24, 2015 at 8:52 PM #785288ParticipantI always wondered why so many Christians go on and get rich. I was so scared that I’d never get to heaven if I made any money. Now I realize that the people preaching that were hoarding it all. And now, it really wasn’t supposed to be that the meek should inherit the earth….proven that G-d meant geeks. So many people so desperate to be meek and poor all these years when the should have been dabbling in semi conductors.
April 24, 2015 at 8:57 PM #785289Participant[quote=Blogstar]I always wondered why so many Christians go on and get rich. I was so scared that I’d never get to heaven if I made any money. Now I realize that the people preaching that were hoarding it all. And now, it really wasn’t supposed to be that the meek should inherit the earth….proven that G-d meant geeks. So many people so desperate to be meek and poor all these years when the should have been dabbling in semi conductors.[/quote]
most institutions in life are based on saying one thing and doing another. I thought religion might be good for them in that sense.
really it was my wife’s thing but I was on board for various reasons…. She was a super hard core catholic until about 10 years ago.
April 24, 2015 at 8:59 PM #785290Participant[quote=zk][quote=scaredyclassic]
On the other hand, i think religion is a useful andgood thing, and that it’s worthwhile to try to have people, particularly young people, participate in it and to get some of them to believe for at least as long as we can. It has some good effects. it’s calming. It kind of gives a sense of meaning and purpose. it explains reality for people in interesting, layered, resonant stories.. it specializes in boundaries. it lays down rules. it provides tradition, ritual and fellowship. it’s GOOD….i like em all. muslims, christians, jews, mormons, miscellany, whatever ya got…
[/quote]
I get what you’re saying. Parts of it can be good. But it allows people to claim things that are completely irrational and have no basis in fact. And once you allow people to do that, they stop having to show any common sense or rational reason for what they’re doing. And they can claim anything they want and say it’s in the name of their god. And they can delude themselves into thinking that homosexuality is an abomination or that their neighbors should be murdered in some situations. And when you say to them, “but…” they can say, “my god told me this. I don’t need to listen to any logical arguments. I don’t need a common sense approach. I only need to follow the word of my god.”
Granted, common sense and logic are not perfect. But, using them, things can be debated and honed. Arguments can be kept up to date with the latest knowledge. Evidence is free to be scrutinized. All the facts can be considered.[/quote]
Yeah. But it’s good to have a plan. Like, should we eat this? If you were kosher you’d know. Done. Stuff like that
April 24, 2015 at 9:10 PM #785291Participant[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Blogstar]
most institutions in life are based on saying one thing and doing another. I thought religion might be good for them in that sense.
really it was my wife’s thing but I was on board for various reasons…. She was a super hard core catholic until about 10 years ago.[/quote]
That first bit is hilarious! I was wondering if there wasn’t something more to starting the kids off with religion than you independently thinking it was a great idea.
April 25, 2015 at 6:44 AM #785299Participantdid i ever report here about the time i tried to attend a local catholic church barefoot?
it didnt go well…
April 25, 2015 at 8:05 AM #785301CoronitaParticipant[quote=Blogstar]I always wondered why so many Christians go on and get rich. I was so scared that I’d never get to heaven if I made any money. Now I realize that the people preaching that were hoarding it all. And now, it really wasn’t supposed to be that the meek should inherit the earth….proven that G-d meant geeks. So many people so desperate to be meek and poor all these years when the should have been dabbling in semi conductors.[/quote]
Come on now.. Ministers need their $60million private jets! Afterall, flying first class is just not good enough!
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/13/living/creflo-dollar-jet-feat/
Minister Creflo Dollar asks for $60 million in donations for a new jet
Ironic that the Gulfstream he wants is $65million, so if he’s only asking for $60, I’m assuming there’s already $5million in donations he’s counting on….Lol…$65 million is a lot of money that could help the poor and need. But hey, a jet is a “need”…Helping poor/unfortunate people is a “want”. God might be perfect, people and there churches sure aren’t.
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