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scaredyclassic.
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April 23, 2015 at 3:03 AM #785175April 23, 2015 at 3:07 AM #785177
CA renter
ParticipantHaving said all of that, I came across an article by Jimmy Carter who announced that he was pulling away from the Southern Baptist Convention. If there is an ugly side to religion, this — the discrimination against and oppression of females — is certainly a big part of that.
IMO, this is why our economic system is set up the way it is, where “women’s work” officially has little to no monetary value, leading to women’s lack of political or social power.
Anyway, interesting read.
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html?stb=fb
April 23, 2015 at 9:17 AM #785185NotCranky
ParticipantI am fine with equating Atheism with a religion, though I disagree. Call it what you want.
When we signed my kid up for little league it was without realizing that before each game he would do two separate pledges to G-D and Country. Agnostics and atheist and nature based religions etc. will never be as equally protected as compared to other religions for which G-D has meaning until this stuff stops. Even if my son doesn’t have to say it, the other G-D religions are being granted a leg up. That’s five times a week at school and 2x the number of baseball games he has per week. It is oppressive.
What really bothers me about the word God being selectively maintained in our society is because what is being reserved is the ability to tell us we have to do something because God said so. If that’s not true, just the historic record of what God has said that people must do is enough to make the possibility that God will speak for anyone again also oppressive . God is dead but the manipulation isn’t necessarily.
I can totally see fanatics roasting people alive again because they won’t do what the right God said to do, or give up their oil or something like that. Actually, so many Christians in this country and obviously Muslims in other countries still play those games. I have neighbors who put maps on their Facebook pages showing how in crusades, Muslims have far out sinned Christians, inherent in that claim of course is that current and future Christian Crusades are supportable by God.
April 23, 2015 at 9:30 AM #785186ParticipantGiving God any kind of standing is rubbish.
Little league pledge, For grade school kids, beginning at least as early as the age 5, to be able to play baseball. Playing T-ball costs a pledge to God!
April 23, 2015 at 10:15 AM #785188ParticipantI don’t really care about having a protected class. What is important is that giving “God” and kind of standing outside of private homes and churches is rubbish. Stop doing that and atheists , agnostics, nature based religions, pantheists , polytheists, won’t have a valid reason to feel oppressed or even insulted . As It is, God based religions , in this country primarily Christians or those who pretend to be Christians are given the upper hand socially and culturally and that leads to having advantages in other areas. It’s affirmative action promotion for believers.
April 23, 2015 at 4:30 PM #785208zk
Participant[quote=CA renter]
Your tone regarding religious people sounds a lot like how religious people talk about the non-religious.
[/quote]
Scenario: A guy holds in his hands a large clod of a what, by all earthly appearances, is dirt. He tells me it’s actually gold. He tells me that his god has cast a spell on this gold to make it look and feel and otherwise appear like dirt. He says his god will reveal it to be gold at a future time. He says I only don’t know that it’s gold because I don’t have faith in his god, whom he calls “Goldie.” Should my disappointed and maybe dismissive tone toward his belief that this clod is actually gold be viewed the same as his disappointed and maybe dismissive tone toward my belief that it’s dirt?
[quote=CA renter]There are many people who would swear on their firstborns’ lives that they have seen evidence of reincarnation or some sort of miracle that justifies their beliefs, too. Some things cannot be explained by science as we know it.
[/quote]People have delusions and hallucinations all the time. Why are they only given credence when they fit somebody’s religion? There have been many people throughout history who sacrificed their firstborn children for religious purposes. So they obviously believed strongly enough to wager their firstborn’s lives that their religion was true. That doesn’t make their religion true.
Most people see and believe what they want to see and believe. That is a flaw of most humans. That doesn’t make those things true. Not everything can be explained by science. But people believing what they want to can be explained by science.
[quote=CA renter]Many physicists, astronomers, and other scientists are religious or believe in some kind of higher power, too. How would you explain that? Are they just fools who are intellectually inferior to atheists? [/quote]
Are they just fools who are intellectually inferior to atheists? Well, that’s a two part question. Are they intellectually inferior to people who think there is almost certainly no god? Not necessarily. Are they fools? If you count people as fools who believe what they want rather than what they would see if they were looking clearly, then yes. Do I count those people as fools? Not necessarily. I do think it’s a flaw, though. A fairly large one.
[quote=CA renter]
Let’s just accept that none of us knows anything for a fact, especially regarding the afterlife and all of the possibilities of the universe. Insisting that there is absolutely no god or higher power is every bit as nonsensical as insisting that there is a god. We simply don’t know…none of us will know until after we are dead, if even then.[/quote]
Show me where I insisted that there is absolutely no god or higher power, CA renter. You can’t do it, because I’ve never said it. In fact, I’ve said many times, even on this blog, that no one can be absolutely certain of anything. I’ve also said that we need a new word in English to describe people who don’t “believe” in god, but who aren’t absolutely certain there’s no god only because they understand that they don’t know enough about the universe to be absolutely certain, but who see, based on what they do know of the universe, that the likelihood of god is so infinitesimal as to be easily and completely dismissed from consideration. If I hold a clump of dirt in my hand, could it really be gold? Yes. Some trick of the universe (or Goldie) could be making it look and feel like dirt to me, and it could really be gold. Am I going to mortgage my house and buy a new Maserati and hope to pay for it with this gold? No. Am I going to accuse anybody who does that of wishful thinking? Yes. If the existence of god is as likely as that clump of dirt actually being gold, am I going to base my life on belief in god? No. Am I going to believe in god? Only if I trick myself into it. Which I can’t/won’t do. Is somebody who believes in god intellectually inferior to me? Depends what you mean by “intellectually.” Are they inferior in their ability to see reality as the evidence presents it rather than how they want to see it? Yes, I think they are.April 23, 2015 at 5:35 PM #785210Participant[quote=zk]
Show me where I insisted that there is absolutely no god or higher power, CA renter. You can’t do it, because I’ve never said it. In fact, I’ve said many times, even on this blog, that no one can be absolutely certain of anything. I’ve also said that we need a new word in English to describe people who don’t “believe” in god, but who aren’t absolutely certain there’s no god only because they understand that they don’t know enough about the universe to be absolutely certain, but who see, based on what they do know of the universe, that the likelihood of god is so infinitesimal as to be easily and completely dismissed from consideration. If I hold a clump of dirt in my hand, could it really be gold? Yes. Some trick of the universe (or Goldie) could be making it look and feel like dirt to me, and it could really be gold. Am I going to mortgage my house and buy a new Maserati and hope to pay for it with this gold? No. Am I going to accuse anybody who does that of wishful thinking? Yes. If the existence of god is as likely as that clump of dirt actually being gold, am I going to base my life on belief in god? No. Am I going to believe in god? Only if I trick myself into it. Which I can’t/won’t do. Is somebody who believes in god intellectually inferior to me? Depends what you mean by “intellectually.” Are they inferior in their ability to see reality as the evidence presents it rather than how they want to see it? Yes, I think they are.[/quote]I think that agnosticism covers that definition with the understanding that this would include a spectrum of beliefs that range from “I don’t know anything for a fact but believe strongly that there could be a god/higher power” to “I don’t know anything for a fact but am strongly convinced there is no god/higher power.”
And there are many people who were/are not having delusions or seeing hallucinations, either. You can’t claim to know about what you haven’t seen/experienced yourself. What many have seen/experienced is no less real than what you’ve seen or experienced. (Just so you know, I’m not talking about seeing Jesus Christ in a potato chip or a rainbow.)
And, no, having spiritual beliefs does not make someone intellectually inferior to their atheist peers. Science has never proven that god or a higher power doesn’t exist, so I’m not sure why you think that it has. If anything, it has only shown us how little we know about the universe.
I think this would be an interesting read. I’ve not read it yet, but based on the description, it describes how I feel about the divide between skeptics and believers.
April 23, 2015 at 6:11 PM #785215ParticipantLogic can show that anything anyone ever claimed to have seen or in anyway experiences and makes stories about regarding the supernatural or after life is not credible. Logic can not prove that the statement “there is no God” is not credible , but only that it is unproven. To me that puts Atheism above all but agnosticism as I understand it. Nature is God or God is Love , things like that sort of work too, though what causes ” Love” could quite easily be part of some survival mechanism . …probably is.
April 23, 2015 at 8:02 PM #785227Participant[quote=CA renter]
I think that agnosticism covers that definition with the understanding that this would include a spectrum of beliefs that range from “I don’t know anything for a fact but believe strongly that there could be a god/higher power” to “I don’t know anything for a fact but am strongly convinced there is no god/higher power.”
[/quote]
Yes, agnosticism covers that the same way that the word “mammal” covers both mice and cows. I think we need a word for that particular type of agnosticism. Because that kind of agnosticism is much, much farther from “I don’t know anything for a fact but believe strongly that there could be a god/higher power” than a mouse is from a cow.
[quote=CA renter]And there are many people who were/are not having delusions or seeing hallucinations, either.
[/quote]
What makes you think they’re not having delusions?
[quote=CA renter]You can’t claim to know about what you haven’t seen/experienced yourself.
[/quote]
I can’t claim to know what other people’s delusions felt like to them. I can claim that they’ve shown no evidence of god.
[quote=CA renter]What many have seen/experienced is no less real than what you’ve seen or experienced. (Just so you know, I’m not talking about seeing Jesus Christ in a potato chip or a rainbow.)
[/quote]
No less real than what I’ve experienced? What do you mean by “real?” Do you mean real to them (“real” in their own mind), or do you mean real in reality, real in some way that there is evidence (besides their delusions) of?[quote=CA renter]
And, no, having spiritual beliefs does not make someone intellectually inferior to their atheist peers.
[/quote]
And I didn’t say it did. I said they were inferior in their ability to see reality for what it is, rather than for what they want it to be. If you want to call that intellectually inferior, then go right ahead.
[quote=CA renter]Science has never proven that god or a higher power doesn’t exist, so I’m not sure why you think that it has.
[/quote]
Did you even read my post? Show me where I said science has proven god doesn’t exist.That’s twice you’ve said or implied that I said something I didn’t say. I might as well be debating bearishwitch. Do you make stuff up because you feel like it helps you keep up with me? All it does is make you look like you don’t know what you’re talking about. It makes you look like you can’t read and comprehend very well. It makes you look like you’re desperate to make valid points, but can’t do it without making stuff up. It makes you look pathetic. So, for your own sake, knock it off.
Science hasn’t proven god doesn’t exist. That lack of evidence is not evidence that there is a god.
April 23, 2015 at 8:30 PM #785229ParticipantPay attention to me dammit.
April 23, 2015 at 10:15 PM #785241ParticipantGoodnight God.
April 23, 2015 at 10:31 PM #785242scaredyclassic
ParticipantIt’s pretty obvious that G-d doesn’t exist. It’s not a particularly interesting question. If you really think there’s some supernatural creature in the sky who is actually interested in you, well, come on , you really probably already know in your bones that it’s not true. the louder people profess their faith, the more i think, yeah, well, you wouldnt need to sound so conviinced if you were convinced.
On the other hand, i think religion is a useful andgood thing, and that it’s worthwhile to try to have people, particularly young people, participate in it and to get some of them to believe for at least as long as we can. It has some good effects. it’s calming. It kind of gives a sense of meaning and purpose. it explains reality for people in interesting, layered, resonant stories.. it specializes in boundaries. it lays down rules. it provides tradition, ritual and fellowship. it’s GOOD….i like em all. muslims, christians, jews, mormons, miscellany, whatever ya got…
but, really, in reality, in real reality, i assure you, no one out there,no supernatural being cares about you in particular. i think we all deep down know that, , from just looking around the globe, and at history, that we are pretty much on our own down here….the louder people protest that basic truth, the more you know they don’t believe it themselves. That wouldnt act like such greedy boors if they really did…
April 23, 2015 at 10:39 PM #785244Participanti don’t know if you’ve seen THE BOOK OF MORMON (by the south park guys) but it is so worth seeing or even reading the script, which is available at bookstores.
it is actually a very beautifl, funny tasteful in a way exploration of the nature of faith and the true power of religion and the good ness of religious impulses to help our brothers.
April 24, 2015 at 12:47 AM #785247Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]It’s pretty obvious that G-d doesn’t exist. It’s not a particularly interesting question. If you really think there’s some supernatural creature in the sky who is actually interested in you, well, come on , you really probably already know in your bones that it’s not true. the louder people profess their faith, the more i think, yeah, well, you wouldnt need to sound so conviinced if you were convinced.
On the other hand, i think religion is a useful andgood thing, and that it’s worthwhile to try to have people, particularly young people, participate in it and to get some of them to believe for at least as long as we can. It has some good effects. it’s calming. It kind of gives a sense of meaning and purpose. it explains reality for people in interesting, layered, resonant stories.. it specializes in boundaries. it lays down rules. it provides tradition, ritual and fellowship. it’s GOOD….i like em all. muslims, christians, jews, mormons, miscellany, whatever ya got…
but, really, in reality, in real reality, i assure you, no one out there,no supernatural being cares about you in particular. i think we all deep down know that, , from just looking around the globe, and at history, that we are pretty much on our own down here….the louder people protest that basic truth, the more you know they don’t believe it themselves. That wouldnt act like such greedy boors if they really did…[/quote]
IMO, there’s a big difference between a god who takes a personal interest in individuals and a “higher power” or energy or life force or whatever you want to call it. Do we just go blank when we die, forever switched off, or does our energy continue beyond that which we can see, feel, hear, and smell, etc?
We know for a fact that we can only see, hear, smell, sense an infinitesimally small portion of what exists. (We also know that some people and animals can sense things along the various spectra that others cannot.) Why in the world would anyone think that we know all there is to know about the energies (or whatever we want to call it) in the universe? How can anyone possible make any claims to know that something does or does not exist for a fact?
April 24, 2015 at 12:48 AM #785249Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]i don’t know if you’ve seen THE BOOK OF MORMON (by the south park guys) but it is so worth seeing or even reading the script, which is available at bookstores.
it is actually a very beautifl, funny tasteful in a way exploration of the nature of faith and the true power of religion and the good ness of religious impulses to help our brothers.[/quote]
I wanted to see that when we were in NYC, but didn’t feel it was appropriate for the kids. It’s definitely on my list, though.
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