OT: religion

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk][quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”

[/quote]

Not more valid necessarily, but definitely more rational.[/quote]

zk: So, you’re arguing AGAINST dogmatism, by USING dogmatism?[/quote]

No. I’m not saying that my position is incontrovertibly true (dogmatism).

I’m saying that my position is rational. Completely different from incontrovertibly true.

Rational means based on or in accordance with reason or logic. I have used reason and logic to arrive at my conclusion. Faith, by definition, does not use these things to reach a conclusion.[/quote]

zk: In a previous post, you asserted that ALL religions were a “fantasy”. Not SOME or CERTAIN, but ALL. That’s a dogmatic assertion. Interestingly, as someone who believes in empiricism and observable phenomena, that’s a position you cannot PROVE.

Here’s the point I was trying to make: Faith and Reason are not incompatible. You referenced astronomy (spherical Earth) and microbiology (bacteria) in a previous post. Some of the greatest research in those areas has been performed by people of faith. Did their faith or beliefs get in the way of their research? It doesn’t appear so. If you were to remove the body of work from just the Catholic scientists, researchers, doctors, etc, you would take away a staggering amount from science.

Saint Thomas Aquinas was one of the first contributors and proponents of the scientific method used extensively to this day. One can hold Faith and Reason with equal ease, was my point.[/quote]

true but doesn’t mean it helped. Or that thir belief was sincerely held.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] One can hold Faith and Reason with equal ease, was my point.[/quote]

that’s when acquiescence comes in.

there are many good social reasons to believe especially when funding and survival are concerned.

it’s not cynical like in pretend. But it’s just follow the rules, go to church, support the system that supports you and don’t question. There are rewards in that also. you have a strong institution to support you in various life stages. You may feel grateful and want to payback.

And when you’re near death, there is a person of authority to give you and your relatives comfort.

That’s also when compartmentalization is most helpful. If you’re a scientist doing cloning and genetic engineering, you just focus on the narrow aspect of your research. Let someone else worry about the ethics.

[scaredyclassic]

Extreme faith of certain sorts is incompatible with reason. If I decided to become a wandering ascetic in search of signs and holy visiins, fasting to see miraculous visiins …that might get in the way if my reason.

That’s an extreme position … A mild innocuous faith probably won’t mess you up that bad… just don’t get too serious about it.

Kinda like this Jewish mother I know who raised her kid to be kinda liberal jewish. The kid went way overboard, married strict orthodox, moved to israel…The whole 9 ysrds…

Too much, man!

[scaredyclassic]

Religion is best in moderate dosages and should not be ingested full strength.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Religion is best in moderate dosages and should not be ingested full strength.[/quote]

Such as wearing a yarmulke if you travel distances greater than five feet and honoring the proscription for using G-d’s name in full?

[FlyerInHi]

I once watched a movie about life in an orthodox jewish community in Israel. If you fall out of line, the community will ostracize you and make your life a living hell. They even post bills around to community to denounce you.

If you are Jewish-American, you could always leave. But if you were born there and that’s all you know, then you have no choice but to believe.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=scaredyclassic]Religion is best in moderate dosages and should not be ingested full strength.[/quote]

Such as wearing a yarmulke if you travel distances greater than five feet and honoring the proscription for using G-d’s name in full?[/quote]

Exactly. Beware of G-d.

The overlap between what we believe and what we say we believe is smaller than the eye of a needle.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I once watched a movie about life in an orthodox jewish community in Israel. If you fall out of line, the community will ostracize you and make your life a living hell. They even post bills around to community to denounce you.

If you are Jewish-American, you could always leave. But if you were born there and that’s all you know, then you have no choice but to believe.[/quote]

Judaism is a tribe.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Religion is best in moderate dosages and should not be ingested full strength.[/quote]
When I feel it is necessary, I tell my wife something happened a certain way because G-d wanted it that way….it works wonders….in moderation.

Right now G-d wants us to have go-carts in the family.

[FlyerInHi]

My cousin in NYC married a first generation Ruskie Orthodox Jew who is not no longer practicing. They are adopting a Black child.

He’s a funny guy.

[scaredyclassic]

The Jews have been arguing with and negotiating with G-d con centuries. When Abraham was trying to strike a deal with G-d in Genesis to save sodom, basically what we we see is everything is negotiable. Perhaps even whether or not it is worth believing.

[scaredyclassic]

Even bad publicity is good. I’m sure G-d would enjoy this chat if he were in the right mood. But leave him be if he’s cranky.

[scaredyclassic]

For Jews intermarriage is equivalent to voting with your feet. It’s an insult to other jews. My parents were terrified my kids would be Jesus freaks who despised me.

My folks were wrong on that one.

[scaredyclassic]

Gay rights are not an issue for youngsters …it’s just accepted.

Religions k I nd a the same. They’re uninterested and find it not even something for debate.

I’d prefer to see them more likevme. At least interested in being opposed.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=scaredyclassic]Religion is best in moderate dosages and should not be ingested full strength.[/quote]

Such as wearing a yarmulke if you travel distances greater than five feet and honoring the proscription for using G-d’s name in full?[/quote]

Exactly. Beware of G-d.

The overlap between what we believe and what we say we believe is smaller than the eye of a needle.[/quote]

Eye of a needle, huh? I recall reading that in some book…

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