OT: Rand Paul is an idiot

[njtosd]

[quote=CA renter]

Let’s just say that if you had personally experienced what these other families had, my guess is that you would feel differently. Sometimes, anecdotal evidence is enough to make one question the official message.

And, just as you’ve noted in your other posts, the benefits of vaccination to society generally outweigh the risks to certain individuals who might be genetically(?) predisposed to autism which might be triggered by vaccinations. That is reason enough for the medical community to circle the wagons and refute any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that might cause people to stop vaccinating their children in large numbers.

BTW, these parents were all very well-educated and financially well-off. They were not uneducated “idiots” who were looking for a payout from the pharmaceutical industry.[/quote]

You have absolutely misinterpreted what I said. Just for clarity – I do not believe that vaccines have EVER caused autism. I do believe that people with allergies to eggs might develop a serious allergic reaction to a flu vaccine (if it’s a heat killed vaccine where the virus was grown in eggs). You and I agree that there has been no proof of a systemic sensitivity to thimerosal, therefore I do not believe that it is (was) a consideration when deciding on whether to vaccinate.

Being smart does not stop people from being misguided (Unibomber etc). As I’ve said in an earlier post I think the parents of autistic/Aspergers kids have a higher than average chance of displaying symptoms that might tend to interfere with their ability to interpret the causation of their children’s affliction.

[Anonymous]

[quote=zk]I joined Mensa back in the ’80s, because I like smart women and I thought I might meet some.[/quote]

My first childhood crush was my 4th grade GATE teacher. I concluded she must be really smart since she was the smart kid teacher. I also thought she was from France because she taught us some French in our GATE class.

Looking back, she was likely just a local girl with a community college teaching credential who took some French in high school.

[njtosd]

CARenter – The thimerosal was removed for the same reason that there is not a 13th floor in most buildings. There are enough people who believe that something bad will happen to them on the unlucky 13th floor that the building management gives in and pretends that the 13th floor doesn’t exist. And I’m sure if I googled it there is someone out there with evidence that bad things have happened to office dwellers unlucky enough to work on the 13th floor.

[scaredyclassic]

It’s poetry in motion
She turned her tender eyes to me
As deep as any ocean
As sweet as any harmony
Mmm – but she blinded me with science
“She blinded me with science!”
And failed me in biology

When I’m dancing close to her
“Blinding me with science – science!”
I can smell the chemicals
“Blinding me with science – science!”
“Science!”
“Science!”

Mmm – but it’s poetry in motion
And when she turned her eyes to me
As deep as any ocean
As sweet as any harmony
Mmm – but she blinded me with science
And failed me in geometry

When she’s dancing next to me
“Blinding me with science – science!”
“Science!”
I can hear machinery
“Blinding me with science – science!”
“Science!”

It’s poetry in motion
And now she’s making love to me
The spheres’re in commotion
The elements in harmony
She blinded me with science
“She blinded me with science!”
And hit me with technology

[scaredyclassic]

Here’s some legal advice.

If you have to go to trial and choose between 2 lawyers. One who’s real good with the law, data or scientific evidence….and another one who seems a little dumber but who is a riveting storyteller…

Take the latter.

[scaredyclassic]

If I do x and y happens shortly thereafter it’s gonna be very hard 4 me to believe in my bones there’s no causation even if the science is overwhelming otherwise.

This local pattern spotting is how each of us had surviving ancestors…there was no time to wait for science

[njtosd]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Here’s some legal advice.

If you have to go to trial and choose between 2 lawyers. One who’s real good with the law, data or scientific evidence….and another one who seems a little dumber but who is a riveting storyteller…

Take the latter.[/quote]

I have known a few who were good at both – and that is the best. But I agree, if you have to choose, take door number two. Most decisions are made emotionally.

[njtosd]

[quote=scaredyclassic]If I do x and y happens shortly thereafter it’s gonna be very hard 4 me to believe in my bones there’s no causation even if the science is overwhelming otherwise.

This local pattern spotting is how each of us had surviving ancestors…there was no time to wait for science[/quote]

One of my professors long ago used the following example to illustrate the problem with believing that two things coincident in time are causally related:

….[T]he greatest factor was mistaking correlation for causation. The classic example of this logic error: claiming that people going through the revolving doors of Macy’s department store power the escalator inside. The proof? When you look inside the store when the doors are locked, the escalator is no longer moving!

[Anonymous]

[quote=scaredyclassic]If I do x and y happens shortly thereafter it’s gonna be very hard 4 me to believe in my bones there’s no causation even if the science is overwhelming otherwise.

This local pattern spotting is how each of us had surviving ancestors…there was no time to wait for science[/quote]

The last sentence is true and, ironically, supported by scientific research.

A good book on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

The book’s central thesis is a dichotomy between two modes of thought: “System 1” is fast, instinctive and emotional; “System 2” is slower, more deliberative, and more logical. The book delineates cognitive biases associated with each type of thinking, starting with Kahneman’s own research on loss aversion. From framing choices to substitution, the book highlights several decades of academic research to suggest that people place too much confidence in human judgment.

[scaredyclassic]

That is interesting.

I feel like I read the book by reading the Wikipedia sumnary.

[flyer]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Here’s some legal advice.

If you have to go to trial and choose between 2 lawyers. One who’s real good with the law, data or scientific evidence….and another one who seems a little dumber but who is a riveting storyteller…

Take the latter.[/quote]

Agree.

Regardless of IQ, (including most of us who have joined Mensa) the most successful people I know–those who are really living the lives they want to live–(my definition of success)–have extraordinary emotional capacities–in balance with their analytical.

I realize scientific evidence trumps emotion concerning most, if not all medical issues, but, I’d have to say the most successful decisions and deals I’ve ever made in life came more from an emotional than analytical basis.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=flyer][quote=scaredyclassic]Here’s some legal advice.

If you have to go to trial and choose between 2 lawyers. One who’s real good with the law, data or scientific evidence….and another one who seems a little dumber but who is a riveting storyteller…

Take the latter.[/quote]

Agree.

Regardless of IQ, (including most of us who have joined Mensa) the most successful people I know–those who are really living the lives they want to live–(my definition of success)–have extraordinary emotional capacities–in balance with their analytical.

I realize scientific evidence trumps emotion concerning most, if not all medical issues, but, I’d have to say the most successful decisions and deals I’ve ever made in life came more from an emotional than analytical basis.[/quote]

Emotional strength, control and wellbeing. It matters. You need to hold it together to really be successful in this crazy life. It’s not easy. I have always valued my kids general psychological awareness and well being over dogged academic success. Not a tiger dad more a pussy cat dad.

emotions rule everything.

That’s why we need a good story to justify vaccines. Not just facts.
.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]Hmmmm, sounds a bit like a personal attack…which you know never helps your side in an argument.

[/quote]

A personal attack? I’ve gone out of my way not to make personal attacks against you in this thread. Every time I’ve typed something that could’ve been construed as mean or personal I’ve erased it and replaced with something else.

You keep stating your same argument (“if you’d seen this, you’d feel different, too”). I keep bringing logic, reason, and science to the table, and you keep ignoring all of that.

Your IQ is irrelevant. I joined Mensa back in the ’80s, because I like smart women and I thought I might meet some. I did meet some, but I also met some… how do I say… idiots. My IQ is in the 99th, percentile, also. You know why I never mention that? Because it’s basically meaningless (which I hadn’t figured out yet in the ’80s). IQ measures a narrow area of brain function, an area that has little to do with actually living life. Among the countless important things that IQ doesn’t measure is one’s ability to see one’s own flaws and shortcomings. It doesn’t measure one’s ability to see one’s own biases and blindnesses. This is where it appears to me that you are falling short on this thread. Your emotion is clearly getting in the way of you seeing a clear picture.

Letting emotion get in the way of logic is extremely common. It’s the way we’re wired. And to restate, it takes all kinds. You seem like a warm, caring person. Always generous with praise. But you do let your emotions cloud your thinking sometimes, this thread being a prime example. You can take that as a personal attack if you want. But I don’t know what else would explain the irrational things you’re saying.[/quote]

I tend to not make emotional decisions, especially when it comes to important issues in life. But I’d be an idiot if I were to ignore cases of real people who’ve experienced their children developing severe autism within 24 hours of getting vaccinated. Call it whatever you want, but I would argue that it’s an emotional thinker who ignores what they see with their own eyes and instead listens to the “offical message” from the government.

The FACT (not an emotional argument) is that many families have seen their children become completely closed off, autistic, even catatonic, immediately after being vaccinated. You can talk about coincidences all day long, but it’s this sort of evidence that leads us to understand the world around us. More research is necessary.

And I’m not suggesting that vaccines necessarily cause autism, just that we don’t know for a fact that they don’t.

Let’s not forget that this government/govt-approved data is from the same government who said that the air was safe to breathe after 9/11:

It’s the same government that spread Agent Orange all over our troops and countless innocent people in Vietnam, all the while declaring that it was “safe”:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/22/197316/makers-of-agent-orange-followed.html

————–

But let’s also note that the most emotional thinkers are the ones who consistently attack those who hold opposing viewpoints, rather than staying on topic and addressing the issues one by one. Read through this thread again and see who is most inclined to post emotional attacks against others (including the use of words like “idiot” or calling people “irrational”) and see if that high IQ of yours is blinding you to your own weaknesses.

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]
I tend to not make emotional decisions, especially when it comes to important issues in life. But I’d be an idiot if I were to ignore cases of real people who’ve experienced their children developing severe autism within 24 hours of getting vaccinated.
[/quote]
You would be an idiot, unless you had some reason to believe that the vaccines weren’t causing the autism. Such as a number of studies proving that they didn’t.
[quote=CA renter]

Call it whatever you want, but I would argue that it’s an emotional thinker who ignores what they see with their own eyes and instead listens to the “offical message” from the government.
[/quote]
The government? “Official message?” I’m not listening to the government. I’m listening to scientific studies.
[quote=CA renter]

The FACT (not an emotional argument) is that many families have seen their children become completely closed off, autistic, even catatonic, immediately after being vaccinated. You can talk about coincidences all day long… [/quote]
If 4 million people have incident A happen to them during their second year of life, and if ten thousand people have incident B happen to them during that same year, there are going to be some that have incident A and B on the same day. And even more that happen within a day or two. I don’t know if you call that a coincidence or not, but it’s a fact.

[quote=CA renter]

… but it’s this sort of evidence that leads us to understand the world around us. More research is necessary.
[/quote]
Those two sentences really don’t make sense when taken together. First, you say that this anecdotal evidence is how we understand the world. Then you say “more research is necessary.” What kind of research are you talking about? The kind that’s already been done, but more? So, which is it? Anecdotal evidence is what counts, or more scientific studies?
[quote=CA renter]

And I’m not suggesting that vaccines necessarily cause autism, just that we don’t know for a fact that they don’t. [/quote]
And what would it take to know “for a fact” that they don’t?
[quote=CA renter]

Let’s not forget that this government/govt-approved data is from the same government who said that the air was safe to breathe after 9/11:
[/quote]
Where are you getting “government-approved” from?
[quote=CA renter]

But let’s also note that the most emotional thinkers are the ones who consistently attack those who hold opposing viewpoints, rather than staying on topic and addressing the issues one by one.
[/quote]
I’ve done nothing but address issues one by one.

[quote=CA renter]

Read through this thread again and see who is most inclined to post emotional attacks against others (including the use of words like “idiot” or calling people “irrational”) and see if that high IQ of yours is blinding you to your own weaknesses.[/quote]
The only people I called idiots were Rand Paul and some women I met in Mensa a few decades ago. And I didn’t call you irrational. I said you were saying irrational things. If I say you’re saying irrational things, and I can point to those things, that’s not a personal attack.

[Anonymous]

Some people simply cannot think rationally and objectively. They may actually be “smart” by some measures, but they are not capable of using their intelligence in a systematic way to work toward objective conclusions.

And they don’t get that they don’t get it, so really a lost cause.

zk, you’re making a noble effort here with a sound and well-articulated argument. But you just cannot overcome Dunning-Kruger.

[Author]

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