OT: “Sing for Change” – the Obama Youth

[surveyor]

kim’s departure

Allan: I would love to see Kim leave a la Ferdinand Marcos. Probably in that instance I wouldn’t mind appeasement. Still, Marcos was under huge pressure and unless that similar pressure bears on Kim, I don’t see him leaving.

I will say I do disagree with you when it comes to North Korea being a bigger issue than Iran. I think Iran is bigger. Most people here are right that Kim is just a bully and a tyrant who’s just trying to con and blackmail the U.S. into giving him what he wants. Iran I think is different.

[Arraya]

Of course you think it is different because there are Jewish and Christian fundamentalist think tanks, posing as academia, that have been putting out reports that Iran will launch a nuke as soon as they get capabilities. These reports filter up through the media, mostly right wing, and created the meme that Iran is an imminent threat. Some in the Pentagon and IDF have are very sympathetic to fundamental beliefs, such as the armageddon. Yes, end of times. Religious fundamentalism is alive and well in the west it just gets hidden where muslim is more rampant and out in the open.

When you see stuff like this:

notes:

-Christians united for Israel
-Prominent senators, at least posture, that they are sympathetic
-Satan is behind Islam
-Obama is the anti-christ, it is prophecy
-War must be started with Iran

And this:

The revelation this month in GQ Magazine that Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary embellished top-secret wartime memos with quotations from the Bible prompts a question. Why did he believe he could influence President Bush by that means?

The answer may lie in an alarming story about George Bush’s Christian millenarian beliefs that has yet to come to light.

In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse

You start to wonder if somebody is worried about nuclear proliferation or starting the final battle that ends Islam.

Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[Arraya]

Of course you think it is different because there are Jewish and Christian fundamentalist think tanks, posing as academia, that have been putting out reports that Iran will launch a nuke as soon as they get capabilities. These reports filter up through the media, mostly right wing, and created the meme that Iran is an imminent threat. Some in the Pentagon and IDF have are very sympathetic to fundamental beliefs, such as the armageddon. Yes, end of times. Religious fundamentalism is alive and well in the west it just gets hidden where muslim is more rampant and out in the open.

When you see stuff like this:

notes:

-Christians united for Israel
-Prominent senators, at least posture, that they are sympathetic
-Satan is behind Islam
-Obama is the anti-christ, it is prophecy
-War must be started with Iran

And this:

The revelation this month in GQ Magazine that Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary embellished top-secret wartime memos with quotations from the Bible prompts a question. Why did he believe he could influence President Bush by that means?

The answer may lie in an alarming story about George Bush’s Christian millenarian beliefs that has yet to come to light.

In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse

You start to wonder if somebody is worried about nuclear proliferation or starting the final battle that ends Islam.

Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[Arraya]

Of course you think it is different because there are Jewish and Christian fundamentalist think tanks, posing as academia, that have been putting out reports that Iran will launch a nuke as soon as they get capabilities. These reports filter up through the media, mostly right wing, and created the meme that Iran is an imminent threat. Some in the Pentagon and IDF have are very sympathetic to fundamental beliefs, such as the armageddon. Yes, end of times. Religious fundamentalism is alive and well in the west it just gets hidden where muslim is more rampant and out in the open.

When you see stuff like this:

notes:

-Christians united for Israel
-Prominent senators, at least posture, that they are sympathetic
-Satan is behind Islam
-Obama is the anti-christ, it is prophecy
-War must be started with Iran

And this:

The revelation this month in GQ Magazine that Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary embellished top-secret wartime memos with quotations from the Bible prompts a question. Why did he believe he could influence President Bush by that means?

The answer may lie in an alarming story about George Bush’s Christian millenarian beliefs that has yet to come to light.

In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse

You start to wonder if somebody is worried about nuclear proliferation or starting the final battle that ends Islam.

Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[Arraya]

Of course you think it is different because there are Jewish and Christian fundamentalist think tanks, posing as academia, that have been putting out reports that Iran will launch a nuke as soon as they get capabilities. These reports filter up through the media, mostly right wing, and created the meme that Iran is an imminent threat. Some in the Pentagon and IDF have are very sympathetic to fundamental beliefs, such as the armageddon. Yes, end of times. Religious fundamentalism is alive and well in the west it just gets hidden where muslim is more rampant and out in the open.

When you see stuff like this:

notes:

-Christians united for Israel
-Prominent senators, at least posture, that they are sympathetic
-Satan is behind Islam
-Obama is the anti-christ, it is prophecy
-War must be started with Iran

And this:

The revelation this month in GQ Magazine that Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary embellished top-secret wartime memos with quotations from the Bible prompts a question. Why did he believe he could influence President Bush by that means?

The answer may lie in an alarming story about George Bush’s Christian millenarian beliefs that has yet to come to light.

In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse

You start to wonder if somebody is worried about nuclear proliferation or starting the final battle that ends Islam.

Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[Arraya]

Of course you think it is different because there are Jewish and Christian fundamentalist think tanks, posing as academia, that have been putting out reports that Iran will launch a nuke as soon as they get capabilities. These reports filter up through the media, mostly right wing, and created the meme that Iran is an imminent threat. Some in the Pentagon and IDF have are very sympathetic to fundamental beliefs, such as the armageddon. Yes, end of times. Religious fundamentalism is alive and well in the west it just gets hidden where muslim is more rampant and out in the open.

When you see stuff like this:

notes:

-Christians united for Israel
-Prominent senators, at least posture, that they are sympathetic
-Satan is behind Islam
-Obama is the anti-christ, it is prophecy
-War must be started with Iran

And this:

The revelation this month in GQ Magazine that Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary embellished top-secret wartime memos with quotations from the Bible prompts a question. Why did he believe he could influence President Bush by that means?

The answer may lie in an alarming story about George Bush’s Christian millenarian beliefs that has yet to come to light.

In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse

You start to wonder if somebody is worried about nuclear proliferation or starting the final battle that ends Islam.

Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Surveyor: Iran may well be a bigger problem than North Korea, but I think it’s a simpler one to fix. Iran’s population is the key to regime change in Iran, but you have no such hope with the population in North Korea.

They are impoverished, cowed and far too indoctrinated to be of use in any sort of “hearts and minds” campaign.

In Iran, you can reach out to the people, who are literate, largely centrist and pro-US. Like I said, I believe Obama is a tool (in the most literal sense of that word), but he can be a useful tool in terms of engaging the people of Iran. Also, and this is just my opinion, but you have a better chance of intelligent dialogue with the people of Iran (not the clergy or the hard liners), who have a very rich history and less of the lunacy that accompanies some of their truly Arab brethren.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be dead wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Surveyor: Iran may well be a bigger problem than North Korea, but I think it’s a simpler one to fix. Iran’s population is the key to regime change in Iran, but you have no such hope with the population in North Korea.

They are impoverished, cowed and far too indoctrinated to be of use in any sort of “hearts and minds” campaign.

In Iran, you can reach out to the people, who are literate, largely centrist and pro-US. Like I said, I believe Obama is a tool (in the most literal sense of that word), but he can be a useful tool in terms of engaging the people of Iran. Also, and this is just my opinion, but you have a better chance of intelligent dialogue with the people of Iran (not the clergy or the hard liners), who have a very rich history and less of the lunacy that accompanies some of their truly Arab brethren.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be dead wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Surveyor: Iran may well be a bigger problem than North Korea, but I think it’s a simpler one to fix. Iran’s population is the key to regime change in Iran, but you have no such hope with the population in North Korea.

They are impoverished, cowed and far too indoctrinated to be of use in any sort of “hearts and minds” campaign.

In Iran, you can reach out to the people, who are literate, largely centrist and pro-US. Like I said, I believe Obama is a tool (in the most literal sense of that word), but he can be a useful tool in terms of engaging the people of Iran. Also, and this is just my opinion, but you have a better chance of intelligent dialogue with the people of Iran (not the clergy or the hard liners), who have a very rich history and less of the lunacy that accompanies some of their truly Arab brethren.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be dead wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Surveyor: Iran may well be a bigger problem than North Korea, but I think it’s a simpler one to fix. Iran’s population is the key to regime change in Iran, but you have no such hope with the population in North Korea.

They are impoverished, cowed and far too indoctrinated to be of use in any sort of “hearts and minds” campaign.

In Iran, you can reach out to the people, who are literate, largely centrist and pro-US. Like I said, I believe Obama is a tool (in the most literal sense of that word), but he can be a useful tool in terms of engaging the people of Iran. Also, and this is just my opinion, but you have a better chance of intelligent dialogue with the people of Iran (not the clergy or the hard liners), who have a very rich history and less of the lunacy that accompanies some of their truly Arab brethren.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be dead wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Surveyor: Iran may well be a bigger problem than North Korea, but I think it’s a simpler one to fix. Iran’s population is the key to regime change in Iran, but you have no such hope with the population in North Korea.

They are impoverished, cowed and far too indoctrinated to be of use in any sort of “hearts and minds” campaign.

In Iran, you can reach out to the people, who are literate, largely centrist and pro-US. Like I said, I believe Obama is a tool (in the most literal sense of that word), but he can be a useful tool in terms of engaging the people of Iran. Also, and this is just my opinion, but you have a better chance of intelligent dialogue with the people of Iran (not the clergy or the hard liners), who have a very rich history and less of the lunacy that accompanies some of their truly Arab brethren.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be dead wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[/quote]

Arraya: Hitchens wrote an article on the radicalization of the Israeli Army through the rabbinate: http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the propaganda behind undermining Iran and our dealings with them. Of course, loons like I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket lend credence to that approach and make it easy for the American people to believe that a nuclearized Iran would light up Tel Aviv first chance they got. It also doesn’t hurt that effort when you see groups like Hezbollah and Hamas sporting banners with mushroom clouds on them.

I’m a hawk by nature, but I believe, in Iran’s case, that we can engage their populace and effect regime change from within. Ballots versus bullets.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[/quote]

Arraya: Hitchens wrote an article on the radicalization of the Israeli Army through the rabbinate: http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the propaganda behind undermining Iran and our dealings with them. Of course, loons like I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket lend credence to that approach and make it easy for the American people to believe that a nuclearized Iran would light up Tel Aviv first chance they got. It also doesn’t hurt that effort when you see groups like Hezbollah and Hamas sporting banners with mushroom clouds on them.

I’m a hawk by nature, but I believe, in Iran’s case, that we can engage their populace and effect regime change from within. Ballots versus bullets.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[/quote]

Arraya: Hitchens wrote an article on the radicalization of the Israeli Army through the rabbinate: http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the propaganda behind undermining Iran and our dealings with them. Of course, loons like I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket lend credence to that approach and make it easy for the American people to believe that a nuclearized Iran would light up Tel Aviv first chance they got. It also doesn’t hurt that effort when you see groups like Hezbollah and Hamas sporting banners with mushroom clouds on them.

I’m a hawk by nature, but I believe, in Iran’s case, that we can engage their populace and effect regime change from within. Ballots versus bullets.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]Then you see something like this:

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media – and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane – were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

If you ask me the whole world is nuts…

[/quote]

Arraya: Hitchens wrote an article on the radicalization of the Israeli Army through the rabbinate: http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the propaganda behind undermining Iran and our dealings with them. Of course, loons like I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket lend credence to that approach and make it easy for the American people to believe that a nuclearized Iran would light up Tel Aviv first chance they got. It also doesn’t hurt that effort when you see groups like Hezbollah and Hamas sporting banners with mushroom clouds on them.

I’m a hawk by nature, but I believe, in Iran’s case, that we can engage their populace and effect regime change from within. Ballots versus bullets.

[Author]

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