OT: Public pay & benefits

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….[/quote]

Firstly, I would very much doubt his “almost without exception” qualification. While I do know that some firefighters and cops retire on disabiliy, most do not. I believe it’s only a *portion* of their retirement benefits that are not taxed, but this might vary from one agency to another.

Also, I believe this policy comes from a time when the pensions were less generous, and it might have made sense then, but it admittedly cannot be justified under the 3% formula (90% of base salary after 30 years — contrary to popular myth, it does NOT include overtime).

In other words, we actually agree on this, sdr. Break open the champagne bottle.

[CA renter]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. “[/quote]

NSR,

This was addressed earlier in this thread. These positions are for **recruit** positions, where the department provides all the training. Most fire departments do NOT have these positions, and those that do, will open them up only when there are too few qualified applicants for their regular positions, or if they need to satisfy some affirmative action quotas.

BTW, since you claim to have such a solid understanding of the public safety sector, why don’t you tell us all about your proposals to cut or significantly reduce overtime? I’m sure the people who actually do this for a living and have decades of experience would love to hear all about it.

[CA renter]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. “[/quote]

NSR,

This was addressed earlier in this thread. These positions are for **recruit** positions, where the department provides all the training. Most fire departments do NOT have these positions, and those that do, will open them up only when there are too few qualified applicants for their regular positions, or if they need to satisfy some affirmative action quotas.

BTW, since you claim to have such a solid understanding of the public safety sector, why don’t you tell us all about your proposals to cut or significantly reduce overtime? I’m sure the people who actually do this for a living and have decades of experience would love to hear all about it.

[CA renter]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. “[/quote]

NSR,

This was addressed earlier in this thread. These positions are for **recruit** positions, where the department provides all the training. Most fire departments do NOT have these positions, and those that do, will open them up only when there are too few qualified applicants for their regular positions, or if they need to satisfy some affirmative action quotas.

BTW, since you claim to have such a solid understanding of the public safety sector, why don’t you tell us all about your proposals to cut or significantly reduce overtime? I’m sure the people who actually do this for a living and have decades of experience would love to hear all about it.

[CA renter]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. “[/quote]

NSR,

This was addressed earlier in this thread. These positions are for **recruit** positions, where the department provides all the training. Most fire departments do NOT have these positions, and those that do, will open them up only when there are too few qualified applicants for their regular positions, or if they need to satisfy some affirmative action quotas.

BTW, since you claim to have such a solid understanding of the public safety sector, why don’t you tell us all about your proposals to cut or significantly reduce overtime? I’m sure the people who actually do this for a living and have decades of experience would love to hear all about it.

[CA renter]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. “[/quote]

NSR,

This was addressed earlier in this thread. These positions are for **recruit** positions, where the department provides all the training. Most fire departments do NOT have these positions, and those that do, will open them up only when there are too few qualified applicants for their regular positions, or if they need to satisfy some affirmative action quotas.

BTW, since you claim to have such a solid understanding of the public safety sector, why don’t you tell us all about your proposals to cut or significantly reduce overtime? I’m sure the people who actually do this for a living and have decades of experience would love to hear all about it.

[sdrealtor]

While admittedly it is a very limited sample, he said only 1 or 2 of his clients were not receiving the benefits as disability benefits. He’s the CPA who does their taxes so I’ll trust him on the tax treatment.

FWIW, his father was retired law enforcement and the other guy had numerours family members working in the public sector (USPS, fire, police etc) and/or receiving retirement benefits. They both see firsthand what these people get paid and they were both even more appalled by the earnings and benefits than me.

[sdrealtor]

While admittedly it is a very limited sample, he said only 1 or 2 of his clients were not receiving the benefits as disability benefits. He’s the CPA who does their taxes so I’ll trust him on the tax treatment.

FWIW, his father was retired law enforcement and the other guy had numerours family members working in the public sector (USPS, fire, police etc) and/or receiving retirement benefits. They both see firsthand what these people get paid and they were both even more appalled by the earnings and benefits than me.

[sdrealtor]

While admittedly it is a very limited sample, he said only 1 or 2 of his clients were not receiving the benefits as disability benefits. He’s the CPA who does their taxes so I’ll trust him on the tax treatment.

FWIW, his father was retired law enforcement and the other guy had numerours family members working in the public sector (USPS, fire, police etc) and/or receiving retirement benefits. They both see firsthand what these people get paid and they were both even more appalled by the earnings and benefits than me.

[sdrealtor]

While admittedly it is a very limited sample, he said only 1 or 2 of his clients were not receiving the benefits as disability benefits. He’s the CPA who does their taxes so I’ll trust him on the tax treatment.

FWIW, his father was retired law enforcement and the other guy had numerours family members working in the public sector (USPS, fire, police etc) and/or receiving retirement benefits. They both see firsthand what these people get paid and they were both even more appalled by the earnings and benefits than me.

[sdrealtor]

While admittedly it is a very limited sample, he said only 1 or 2 of his clients were not receiving the benefits as disability benefits. He’s the CPA who does their taxes so I’ll trust him on the tax treatment.

FWIW, his father was retired law enforcement and the other guy had numerours family members working in the public sector (USPS, fire, police etc) and/or receiving retirement benefits. They both see firsthand what these people get paid and they were both even more appalled by the earnings and benefits than me.

[jstoesz]

There is no point further discussing this topic.

The advocates “points” are lost on us, because the rest of us see the pay structure as intentionally built to defraud the tax payer. If you are blind to this, I seriously question your financial stake in the matter…

I can not think of a single blue collar job that pays half as well as a fireman. Furthermore, I can not think of a single job in which it is possible to log so much overtime (simply not enough hours in the day), and get paid for that overtime. Rel companies (the ones not trying to screw the taxpayer) try to limit the amount of overtime. I can not think of a single job where basic qualifications (such as a ACLS) is grounds for an 8.5% bonus. The min and max numbers are absurd because of all the hidden payments that fireman get.

Now I have no problem with fireman. I say, ride the gravy train as long as you can (I know I wouldn’t turn down an overcompensated salary). But what really pisses me off is when you can not be honest about the gross overcompensation. If their salaries are on the up and up, why all the hidden payments? Why all the flexible hours and time off provisions? Why all the disability pay to spike pensions? If fireman got payed like the rest of us, then we could have an honest discussion about pay. But their murky pay structure reeks of dishonesty and fraud. And it stinks that you can not see that.

BTW, people don’t get payed on their value to society (this view is a Utopian crazy world), people get payed according to the cheapest price that someone will do the work for. Maybe BFE has to pay their fireman 150k a year, but I am damn sure that san diego does not. I want more fire service in the city (esp in the fall). I just don’t want to pay so much per fireman, and I am sure that we don’t have to. Maybe when the good times are here again and everyone is making 6 figures we will have to readdress their pay. But maintaining trained fireman is not hard to do in this environment, they can take a pay cut like everyone else…

[jstoesz]

There is no point further discussing this topic.

The advocates “points” are lost on us, because the rest of us see the pay structure as intentionally built to defraud the tax payer. If you are blind to this, I seriously question your financial stake in the matter…

I can not think of a single blue collar job that pays half as well as a fireman. Furthermore, I can not think of a single job in which it is possible to log so much overtime (simply not enough hours in the day), and get paid for that overtime. Rel companies (the ones not trying to screw the taxpayer) try to limit the amount of overtime. I can not think of a single job where basic qualifications (such as a ACLS) is grounds for an 8.5% bonus. The min and max numbers are absurd because of all the hidden payments that fireman get.

Now I have no problem with fireman. I say, ride the gravy train as long as you can (I know I wouldn’t turn down an overcompensated salary). But what really pisses me off is when you can not be honest about the gross overcompensation. If their salaries are on the up and up, why all the hidden payments? Why all the flexible hours and time off provisions? Why all the disability pay to spike pensions? If fireman got payed like the rest of us, then we could have an honest discussion about pay. But their murky pay structure reeks of dishonesty and fraud. And it stinks that you can not see that.

BTW, people don’t get payed on their value to society (this view is a Utopian crazy world), people get payed according to the cheapest price that someone will do the work for. Maybe BFE has to pay their fireman 150k a year, but I am damn sure that san diego does not. I want more fire service in the city (esp in the fall). I just don’t want to pay so much per fireman, and I am sure that we don’t have to. Maybe when the good times are here again and everyone is making 6 figures we will have to readdress their pay. But maintaining trained fireman is not hard to do in this environment, they can take a pay cut like everyone else…

[jstoesz]

There is no point further discussing this topic.

The advocates “points” are lost on us, because the rest of us see the pay structure as intentionally built to defraud the tax payer. If you are blind to this, I seriously question your financial stake in the matter…

I can not think of a single blue collar job that pays half as well as a fireman. Furthermore, I can not think of a single job in which it is possible to log so much overtime (simply not enough hours in the day), and get paid for that overtime. Rel companies (the ones not trying to screw the taxpayer) try to limit the amount of overtime. I can not think of a single job where basic qualifications (such as a ACLS) is grounds for an 8.5% bonus. The min and max numbers are absurd because of all the hidden payments that fireman get.

Now I have no problem with fireman. I say, ride the gravy train as long as you can (I know I wouldn’t turn down an overcompensated salary). But what really pisses me off is when you can not be honest about the gross overcompensation. If their salaries are on the up and up, why all the hidden payments? Why all the flexible hours and time off provisions? Why all the disability pay to spike pensions? If fireman got payed like the rest of us, then we could have an honest discussion about pay. But their murky pay structure reeks of dishonesty and fraud. And it stinks that you can not see that.

BTW, people don’t get payed on their value to society (this view is a Utopian crazy world), people get payed according to the cheapest price that someone will do the work for. Maybe BFE has to pay their fireman 150k a year, but I am damn sure that san diego does not. I want more fire service in the city (esp in the fall). I just don’t want to pay so much per fireman, and I am sure that we don’t have to. Maybe when the good times are here again and everyone is making 6 figures we will have to readdress their pay. But maintaining trained fireman is not hard to do in this environment, they can take a pay cut like everyone else…

[jstoesz]

There is no point further discussing this topic.

The advocates “points” are lost on us, because the rest of us see the pay structure as intentionally built to defraud the tax payer. If you are blind to this, I seriously question your financial stake in the matter…

I can not think of a single blue collar job that pays half as well as a fireman. Furthermore, I can not think of a single job in which it is possible to log so much overtime (simply not enough hours in the day), and get paid for that overtime. Rel companies (the ones not trying to screw the taxpayer) try to limit the amount of overtime. I can not think of a single job where basic qualifications (such as a ACLS) is grounds for an 8.5% bonus. The min and max numbers are absurd because of all the hidden payments that fireman get.

Now I have no problem with fireman. I say, ride the gravy train as long as you can (I know I wouldn’t turn down an overcompensated salary). But what really pisses me off is when you can not be honest about the gross overcompensation. If their salaries are on the up and up, why all the hidden payments? Why all the flexible hours and time off provisions? Why all the disability pay to spike pensions? If fireman got payed like the rest of us, then we could have an honest discussion about pay. But their murky pay structure reeks of dishonesty and fraud. And it stinks that you can not see that.

BTW, people don’t get payed on their value to society (this view is a Utopian crazy world), people get payed according to the cheapest price that someone will do the work for. Maybe BFE has to pay their fireman 150k a year, but I am damn sure that san diego does not. I want more fire service in the city (esp in the fall). I just don’t want to pay so much per fireman, and I am sure that we don’t have to. Maybe when the good times are here again and everyone is making 6 figures we will have to readdress their pay. But maintaining trained fireman is not hard to do in this environment, they can take a pay cut like everyone else…

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