OT: Public pay & benefits

[CA renter]

Quite a bit O/T, but relates to teachers (who are often put in the category of “greedy union thugs” as well). Just ran across the video that was shot by a student in what appears to be a high school math class. The student posted it on YouTube, apparently because the student thought it was funny that the teacher “lost it.”

Personally, it broke my heart. It’s not the teacher’s behavior that’s so bad. Look at what the students are doing, and listen to what they are saying.

What pay would you demand to take this job?

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/tennessee-teacher-has-major-meltdown

BTW, this is not uncommon student behavior in urban public schools.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an explanation for the high compensation:

http://www.iaff1775.org/news/local/294-the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement

1. Firefighters and other public employees do NOT receive Social Security.

And they don’t pay into it either.

2. Firefighters work a 56 or 72 hour work week

A huge portion of this work includes sleeping and eating. Of course they are on call, which I agree is not easy. But they also get to stay at home for many days at a time as well. It balances out.

3. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job.

Firefighting is dangerous – no argument there.

But let’s put these statistics into context:

“Average population” includes white collar workers and housewives.

From the source cited in the link above: “[…] occupations such as timber cutter, fisher, seaman, and aircraft pilot have the highest fatality rates”

Even taxicab drivers have higher fatality rates.

4. In a public defined benefit retirement system, when a firefighter dies, their retirement contributions go back into the”system”

And if they outlive their contributions, they still get paid.

In the 401K system, if one runs out of money before they die, tough luck. That’s the tradeoff.

5. Firefighters pay more into their retirement system than other public or private sector employees.

Article cites a rate of 9%-15%

But private sector employees pay 7.5% Social Security.

Many private sector employees put 10% into their 401K + contribute to a Roth, plus save on top of that. And even saving 20% probably won’t come close to providing a retirement of 100% base pay after 30 years.

6. Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the cities, counties or state.

Unless there is a shortfall, which there will be for decades.

7. Like the rest of the population, aging firefighters are at significantly higher risk of injury and illness

Yes, getting old is hard for everyone.

8. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits (in recognition of the above factors) other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up.

Yes, that’s how business works for everyone.

9. Firefighter jobs have become significantly more complex and technical over the past 30 years

Welcome to the 21st century. Are there any jobs becoming less technical?

10. Young firefighters always pay more into the retirement system than current retirees did

But there are still major shortfalls.

11. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions

Yes, PERS has a lot of money. Not nearly enough though. State workers did not pay enough in, but they are guaranteed to get the payouts anyway.

12. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays “catch up” arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality’s budget.

The money comes from the taxpayers, who have a right to know.

When the private sector retirement fund falls short (i.e one’s personal 401K), it doesn’t get reported in the media because there no taxpayer bailout. That person is simply SOL.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an explanation for the high compensation:

http://www.iaff1775.org/news/local/294-the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement

1. Firefighters and other public employees do NOT receive Social Security.

And they don’t pay into it either.

2. Firefighters work a 56 or 72 hour work week

A huge portion of this work includes sleeping and eating. Of course they are on call, which I agree is not easy. But they also get to stay at home for many days at a time as well. It balances out.

3. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job.

Firefighting is dangerous – no argument there.

But let’s put these statistics into context:

“Average population” includes white collar workers and housewives.

From the source cited in the link above: “[…] occupations such as timber cutter, fisher, seaman, and aircraft pilot have the highest fatality rates”

Even taxicab drivers have higher fatality rates.

4. In a public defined benefit retirement system, when a firefighter dies, their retirement contributions go back into the”system”

And if they outlive their contributions, they still get paid.

In the 401K system, if one runs out of money before they die, tough luck. That’s the tradeoff.

5. Firefighters pay more into their retirement system than other public or private sector employees.

Article cites a rate of 9%-15%

But private sector employees pay 7.5% Social Security.

Many private sector employees put 10% into their 401K + contribute to a Roth, plus save on top of that. And even saving 20% probably won’t come close to providing a retirement of 100% base pay after 30 years.

6. Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the cities, counties or state.

Unless there is a shortfall, which there will be for decades.

7. Like the rest of the population, aging firefighters are at significantly higher risk of injury and illness

Yes, getting old is hard for everyone.

8. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits (in recognition of the above factors) other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up.

Yes, that’s how business works for everyone.

9. Firefighter jobs have become significantly more complex and technical over the past 30 years

Welcome to the 21st century. Are there any jobs becoming less technical?

10. Young firefighters always pay more into the retirement system than current retirees did

But there are still major shortfalls.

11. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions

Yes, PERS has a lot of money. Not nearly enough though. State workers did not pay enough in, but they are guaranteed to get the payouts anyway.

12. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays “catch up” arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality’s budget.

The money comes from the taxpayers, who have a right to know.

When the private sector retirement fund falls short (i.e one’s personal 401K), it doesn’t get reported in the media because there no taxpayer bailout. That person is simply SOL.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an explanation for the high compensation:

http://www.iaff1775.org/news/local/294-the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement

1. Firefighters and other public employees do NOT receive Social Security.

And they don’t pay into it either.

2. Firefighters work a 56 or 72 hour work week

A huge portion of this work includes sleeping and eating. Of course they are on call, which I agree is not easy. But they also get to stay at home for many days at a time as well. It balances out.

3. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job.

Firefighting is dangerous – no argument there.

But let’s put these statistics into context:

“Average population” includes white collar workers and housewives.

From the source cited in the link above: “[…] occupations such as timber cutter, fisher, seaman, and aircraft pilot have the highest fatality rates”

Even taxicab drivers have higher fatality rates.

4. In a public defined benefit retirement system, when a firefighter dies, their retirement contributions go back into the”system”

And if they outlive their contributions, they still get paid.

In the 401K system, if one runs out of money before they die, tough luck. That’s the tradeoff.

5. Firefighters pay more into their retirement system than other public or private sector employees.

Article cites a rate of 9%-15%

But private sector employees pay 7.5% Social Security.

Many private sector employees put 10% into their 401K + contribute to a Roth, plus save on top of that. And even saving 20% probably won’t come close to providing a retirement of 100% base pay after 30 years.

6. Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the cities, counties or state.

Unless there is a shortfall, which there will be for decades.

7. Like the rest of the population, aging firefighters are at significantly higher risk of injury and illness

Yes, getting old is hard for everyone.

8. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits (in recognition of the above factors) other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up.

Yes, that’s how business works for everyone.

9. Firefighter jobs have become significantly more complex and technical over the past 30 years

Welcome to the 21st century. Are there any jobs becoming less technical?

10. Young firefighters always pay more into the retirement system than current retirees did

But there are still major shortfalls.

11. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions

Yes, PERS has a lot of money. Not nearly enough though. State workers did not pay enough in, but they are guaranteed to get the payouts anyway.

12. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays “catch up” arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality’s budget.

The money comes from the taxpayers, who have a right to know.

When the private sector retirement fund falls short (i.e one’s personal 401K), it doesn’t get reported in the media because there no taxpayer bailout. That person is simply SOL.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an explanation for the high compensation:

http://www.iaff1775.org/news/local/294-the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement

1. Firefighters and other public employees do NOT receive Social Security.

And they don’t pay into it either.

2. Firefighters work a 56 or 72 hour work week

A huge portion of this work includes sleeping and eating. Of course they are on call, which I agree is not easy. But they also get to stay at home for many days at a time as well. It balances out.

3. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job.

Firefighting is dangerous – no argument there.

But let’s put these statistics into context:

“Average population” includes white collar workers and housewives.

From the source cited in the link above: “[…] occupations such as timber cutter, fisher, seaman, and aircraft pilot have the highest fatality rates”

Even taxicab drivers have higher fatality rates.

4. In a public defined benefit retirement system, when a firefighter dies, their retirement contributions go back into the”system”

And if they outlive their contributions, they still get paid.

In the 401K system, if one runs out of money before they die, tough luck. That’s the tradeoff.

5. Firefighters pay more into their retirement system than other public or private sector employees.

Article cites a rate of 9%-15%

But private sector employees pay 7.5% Social Security.

Many private sector employees put 10% into their 401K + contribute to a Roth, plus save on top of that. And even saving 20% probably won’t come close to providing a retirement of 100% base pay after 30 years.

6. Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the cities, counties or state.

Unless there is a shortfall, which there will be for decades.

7. Like the rest of the population, aging firefighters are at significantly higher risk of injury and illness

Yes, getting old is hard for everyone.

8. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits (in recognition of the above factors) other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up.

Yes, that’s how business works for everyone.

9. Firefighter jobs have become significantly more complex and technical over the past 30 years

Welcome to the 21st century. Are there any jobs becoming less technical?

10. Young firefighters always pay more into the retirement system than current retirees did

But there are still major shortfalls.

11. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions

Yes, PERS has a lot of money. Not nearly enough though. State workers did not pay enough in, but they are guaranteed to get the payouts anyway.

12. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays “catch up” arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality’s budget.

The money comes from the taxpayers, who have a right to know.

When the private sector retirement fund falls short (i.e one’s personal 401K), it doesn’t get reported in the media because there no taxpayer bailout. That person is simply SOL.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an explanation for the high compensation:

http://www.iaff1775.org/news/local/294-the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement

1. Firefighters and other public employees do NOT receive Social Security.

And they don’t pay into it either.

2. Firefighters work a 56 or 72 hour work week

A huge portion of this work includes sleeping and eating. Of course they are on call, which I agree is not easy. But they also get to stay at home for many days at a time as well. It balances out.

3. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job.

Firefighting is dangerous – no argument there.

But let’s put these statistics into context:

“Average population” includes white collar workers and housewives.

From the source cited in the link above: “[…] occupations such as timber cutter, fisher, seaman, and aircraft pilot have the highest fatality rates”

Even taxicab drivers have higher fatality rates.

4. In a public defined benefit retirement system, when a firefighter dies, their retirement contributions go back into the”system”

And if they outlive their contributions, they still get paid.

In the 401K system, if one runs out of money before they die, tough luck. That’s the tradeoff.

5. Firefighters pay more into their retirement system than other public or private sector employees.

Article cites a rate of 9%-15%

But private sector employees pay 7.5% Social Security.

Many private sector employees put 10% into their 401K + contribute to a Roth, plus save on top of that. And even saving 20% probably won’t come close to providing a retirement of 100% base pay after 30 years.

6. Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the cities, counties or state.

Unless there is a shortfall, which there will be for decades.

7. Like the rest of the population, aging firefighters are at significantly higher risk of injury and illness

Yes, getting old is hard for everyone.

8. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits (in recognition of the above factors) other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up.

Yes, that’s how business works for everyone.

9. Firefighter jobs have become significantly more complex and technical over the past 30 years

Welcome to the 21st century. Are there any jobs becoming less technical?

10. Young firefighters always pay more into the retirement system than current retirees did

But there are still major shortfalls.

11. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions

Yes, PERS has a lot of money. Not nearly enough though. State workers did not pay enough in, but they are guaranteed to get the payouts anyway.

12. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays “catch up” arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality’s budget.

The money comes from the taxpayers, who have a right to know.

When the private sector retirement fund falls short (i.e one’s personal 401K), it doesn’t get reported in the media because there no taxpayer bailout. That person is simply SOL.

[GH]

I think what is being lost in this whole thread, is not if these are great people or great workers, or how dangerous their jobs are, or how horrible public school classrooms are etc, but a simpler and more fundamental question.

With the current economic conditions, CAN WE AFFORD THEM?

My wife worked in Riverside County some years back as a volunteer firefighter. She loved being a part of something important, even though she did not get paid. When we got to San Diego? No volunteers allowed!

I am actually not so interested in the on the ground police, teachers, firemen etc. , but rather the growing and much more expensive layer of administrative staff, which seems to be where most of the horror stories of overpaid government employees with massive pensions comes from.

On the subject of pensions, it is clear that we need to move away from the “for life” model of pensions and instead calculate each government workers contributions, matching contributions etc, weigh in the profits or LOSSES on the pension funds over time, and come to an actual balance owed each worker, regardless of if they live just a year or two, or if they live to be 100. Frankly, why should a worker who lives longer get MORE pension than one who is unlucky and dies shortly after retirement?

[GH]

I think what is being lost in this whole thread, is not if these are great people or great workers, or how dangerous their jobs are, or how horrible public school classrooms are etc, but a simpler and more fundamental question.

With the current economic conditions, CAN WE AFFORD THEM?

My wife worked in Riverside County some years back as a volunteer firefighter. She loved being a part of something important, even though she did not get paid. When we got to San Diego? No volunteers allowed!

I am actually not so interested in the on the ground police, teachers, firemen etc. , but rather the growing and much more expensive layer of administrative staff, which seems to be where most of the horror stories of overpaid government employees with massive pensions comes from.

On the subject of pensions, it is clear that we need to move away from the “for life” model of pensions and instead calculate each government workers contributions, matching contributions etc, weigh in the profits or LOSSES on the pension funds over time, and come to an actual balance owed each worker, regardless of if they live just a year or two, or if they live to be 100. Frankly, why should a worker who lives longer get MORE pension than one who is unlucky and dies shortly after retirement?

[GH]

I think what is being lost in this whole thread, is not if these are great people or great workers, or how dangerous their jobs are, or how horrible public school classrooms are etc, but a simpler and more fundamental question.

With the current economic conditions, CAN WE AFFORD THEM?

My wife worked in Riverside County some years back as a volunteer firefighter. She loved being a part of something important, even though she did not get paid. When we got to San Diego? No volunteers allowed!

I am actually not so interested in the on the ground police, teachers, firemen etc. , but rather the growing and much more expensive layer of administrative staff, which seems to be where most of the horror stories of overpaid government employees with massive pensions comes from.

On the subject of pensions, it is clear that we need to move away from the “for life” model of pensions and instead calculate each government workers contributions, matching contributions etc, weigh in the profits or LOSSES on the pension funds over time, and come to an actual balance owed each worker, regardless of if they live just a year or two, or if they live to be 100. Frankly, why should a worker who lives longer get MORE pension than one who is unlucky and dies shortly after retirement?

[GH]

I think what is being lost in this whole thread, is not if these are great people or great workers, or how dangerous their jobs are, or how horrible public school classrooms are etc, but a simpler and more fundamental question.

With the current economic conditions, CAN WE AFFORD THEM?

My wife worked in Riverside County some years back as a volunteer firefighter. She loved being a part of something important, even though she did not get paid. When we got to San Diego? No volunteers allowed!

I am actually not so interested in the on the ground police, teachers, firemen etc. , but rather the growing and much more expensive layer of administrative staff, which seems to be where most of the horror stories of overpaid government employees with massive pensions comes from.

On the subject of pensions, it is clear that we need to move away from the “for life” model of pensions and instead calculate each government workers contributions, matching contributions etc, weigh in the profits or LOSSES on the pension funds over time, and come to an actual balance owed each worker, regardless of if they live just a year or two, or if they live to be 100. Frankly, why should a worker who lives longer get MORE pension than one who is unlucky and dies shortly after retirement?

[GH]

I think what is being lost in this whole thread, is not if these are great people or great workers, or how dangerous their jobs are, or how horrible public school classrooms are etc, but a simpler and more fundamental question.

With the current economic conditions, CAN WE AFFORD THEM?

My wife worked in Riverside County some years back as a volunteer firefighter. She loved being a part of something important, even though she did not get paid. When we got to San Diego? No volunteers allowed!

I am actually not so interested in the on the ground police, teachers, firemen etc. , but rather the growing and much more expensive layer of administrative staff, which seems to be where most of the horror stories of overpaid government employees with massive pensions comes from.

On the subject of pensions, it is clear that we need to move away from the “for life” model of pensions and instead calculate each government workers contributions, matching contributions etc, weigh in the profits or LOSSES on the pension funds over time, and come to an actual balance owed each worker, regardless of if they live just a year or two, or if they live to be 100. Frankly, why should a worker who lives longer get MORE pension than one who is unlucky and dies shortly after retirement?

[scaredyclassic]

because dead people have lower expenses?

sorry. joke.

i am sure everyone, including myself, who worries about this topic, is really dealing with issues of death, aging, fear of incapacity, disconnection from children, relatives, feelings of isolation, loneliness, poverty, change.

i need a therapist.

[scaredyclassic]

because dead people have lower expenses?

sorry. joke.

i am sure everyone, including myself, who worries about this topic, is really dealing with issues of death, aging, fear of incapacity, disconnection from children, relatives, feelings of isolation, loneliness, poverty, change.

i need a therapist.

[scaredyclassic]

because dead people have lower expenses?

sorry. joke.

i am sure everyone, including myself, who worries about this topic, is really dealing with issues of death, aging, fear of incapacity, disconnection from children, relatives, feelings of isolation, loneliness, poverty, change.

i need a therapist.

[scaredyclassic]

because dead people have lower expenses?

sorry. joke.

i am sure everyone, including myself, who worries about this topic, is really dealing with issues of death, aging, fear of incapacity, disconnection from children, relatives, feelings of isolation, loneliness, poverty, change.

i need a therapist.

[Author]

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