OT: Public pay & benefits

[CA renter]

[quote=jficquette]CA Renter,

Comparing pay for mercenaries in Iraq to public safety employees in California is not apples and apples. Also the military doesn’t retire at full pay. Quite frankly public safety people probably make more money than the mercenaries when you include 30-40 years on pension.

Concerning the firemen who tool around in fire trucks to run personal errands should probably not be allowed to leave the firehouse while they are on duty.

John[/quote]

Public safety personnel don’t retire at full pay, either. Mind you, public safety personnel weren’t complaining about their pensions before the pension boost, either (not anyone I’ve ever met). That was a disaster from the start, and as I’ve said many times before, it was not the boots-on-the-ground workers who were asking for it. They’re the ones taking all the flak for it now, though.

As to the “tooling around in the fire engines” how do you think firefighters get to calls? The fire station isn’t what goes on calls; the fire engines/trucks do. Firefighters are tied to the fire engines/trucks (and their zones), not the fire station.

Besides, how do you think groceries get to the fire stations when firefighters often 24+ hours at a stretch? Firefighters work 24 or even 120 hours (not an unusual overtime situation) at a time. You don’t think they should eat? Or, perhaps you think the city should hire additional workers who will keep the fire stations supplied all the time?

Just want to clarify…firefighters do not “run personal errands” while on duty. That’s absolutely not allowed. If you see them in the store, they are ON DUTY. If a call comes in, the groceries are dropped and they run to the call.

[sdrealtor]

I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?

[sdrealtor]

I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?

[sdrealtor]

I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?

[sdrealtor]

I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?

[sdrealtor]

I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?[/quote]

Yes, in your store, you would see only three of them together — some departments have four-man crews, but all the FDs in SD County do not, at least none that I’m aware of. They work as a crew and every person has a particular job. If they go on a call, every person is needed, so they are not allowed to separate.

Again, the engine/truck is what they use on calls. They are tied to the engine/truck, not the fire station. The store would be in their “first-in” zone, or the closest store to their FI zone. This is what matters as far as response times go. The fire station is just a “base” from which they can work — it’s where they eat, sleep, shower, etc. because they work 24+ hour shifts. The engine/truck is their actual workplace…it is the engine/truck they need to be near, not the fire station.

If a call were to come in while one person is at the store, should the engine drive by the store (which might be in the opposite direction of the call) to pick him up? How many minutes do you think that would add to the response times? They have very strict guidelines WRT response times. That’s a very big deal, and that’s why you see the engines at the grocery store.

Edit: just thought of a good analogy. Expecting firefighters to be in station the whole time is like expecting realtors to be in their offices the whole time. A firefighter’s job is not in the station, it’s outside on calls. Not sure if I’m explaining it well enough, but hope it helps.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?[/quote]

Yes, in your store, you would see only three of them together — some departments have four-man crews, but all the FDs in SD County do not, at least none that I’m aware of. They work as a crew and every person has a particular job. If they go on a call, every person is needed, so they are not allowed to separate.

Again, the engine/truck is what they use on calls. They are tied to the engine/truck, not the fire station. The store would be in their “first-in” zone, or the closest store to their FI zone. This is what matters as far as response times go. The fire station is just a “base” from which they can work — it’s where they eat, sleep, shower, etc. because they work 24+ hour shifts. The engine/truck is their actual workplace…it is the engine/truck they need to be near, not the fire station.

If a call were to come in while one person is at the store, should the engine drive by the store (which might be in the opposite direction of the call) to pick him up? How many minutes do you think that would add to the response times? They have very strict guidelines WRT response times. That’s a very big deal, and that’s why you see the engines at the grocery store.

Edit: just thought of a good analogy. Expecting firefighters to be in station the whole time is like expecting realtors to be in their offices the whole time. A firefighter’s job is not in the station, it’s outside on calls. Not sure if I’m explaining it well enough, but hope it helps.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?[/quote]

Yes, in your store, you would see only three of them together — some departments have four-man crews, but all the FDs in SD County do not, at least none that I’m aware of. They work as a crew and every person has a particular job. If they go on a call, every person is needed, so they are not allowed to separate.

Again, the engine/truck is what they use on calls. They are tied to the engine/truck, not the fire station. The store would be in their “first-in” zone, or the closest store to their FI zone. This is what matters as far as response times go. The fire station is just a “base” from which they can work — it’s where they eat, sleep, shower, etc. because they work 24+ hour shifts. The engine/truck is their actual workplace…it is the engine/truck they need to be near, not the fire station.

If a call were to come in while one person is at the store, should the engine drive by the store (which might be in the opposite direction of the call) to pick him up? How many minutes do you think that would add to the response times? They have very strict guidelines WRT response times. That’s a very big deal, and that’s why you see the engines at the grocery store.

Edit: just thought of a good analogy. Expecting firefighters to be in station the whole time is like expecting realtors to be in their offices the whole time. A firefighter’s job is not in the station, it’s outside on calls. Not sure if I’m explaining it well enough, but hope it helps.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?[/quote]

Yes, in your store, you would see only three of them together — some departments have four-man crews, but all the FDs in SD County do not, at least none that I’m aware of. They work as a crew and every person has a particular job. If they go on a call, every person is needed, so they are not allowed to separate.

Again, the engine/truck is what they use on calls. They are tied to the engine/truck, not the fire station. The store would be in their “first-in” zone, or the closest store to their FI zone. This is what matters as far as response times go. The fire station is just a “base” from which they can work — it’s where they eat, sleep, shower, etc. because they work 24+ hour shifts. The engine/truck is their actual workplace…it is the engine/truck they need to be near, not the fire station.

If a call were to come in while one person is at the store, should the engine drive by the store (which might be in the opposite direction of the call) to pick him up? How many minutes do you think that would add to the response times? They have very strict guidelines WRT response times. That’s a very big deal, and that’s why you see the engines at the grocery store.

Edit: just thought of a good analogy. Expecting firefighters to be in station the whole time is like expecting realtors to be in their offices the whole time. A firefighter’s job is not in the station, it’s outside on calls. Not sure if I’m explaining it well enough, but hope it helps.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I have a serious question. I often see the local fireman shopping at the local Stater Brothers with their firetruck. I always see 3 or 4 of them shopping together and never understood why they cant just send one of them in a private vehicle. Am I missing something?[/quote]

Yes, in your store, you would see only three of them together — some departments have four-man crews, but all the FDs in SD County do not, at least none that I’m aware of. They work as a crew and every person has a particular job. If they go on a call, every person is needed, so they are not allowed to separate.

Again, the engine/truck is what they use on calls. They are tied to the engine/truck, not the fire station. The store would be in their “first-in” zone, or the closest store to their FI zone. This is what matters as far as response times go. The fire station is just a “base” from which they can work — it’s where they eat, sleep, shower, etc. because they work 24+ hour shifts. The engine/truck is their actual workplace…it is the engine/truck they need to be near, not the fire station.

If a call were to come in while one person is at the store, should the engine drive by the store (which might be in the opposite direction of the call) to pick him up? How many minutes do you think that would add to the response times? They have very strict guidelines WRT response times. That’s a very big deal, and that’s why you see the engines at the grocery store.

Edit: just thought of a good analogy. Expecting firefighters to be in station the whole time is like expecting realtors to be in their offices the whole time. A firefighter’s job is not in the station, it’s outside on calls. Not sure if I’m explaining it well enough, but hope it helps.

[CA renter]

[quote=pri_dk]Agree that we really can’t group police and fire together in this discussion. They are actually quite different jobs and the markets for qualified employees is likely very different as well.

So let’s continue to just pick on just the firemen 😉

From the SD Fire website:

The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years.

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/sdflssops.shtml

The minimal requirements are surprisingly modest:

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/faqcareers.shtml

(No height/weight requirement?)

This is the only data we need. It clearly shows that the market for firefighters is out of whack. Which means the price is not right.

Firefighting is a physically demanding, slightly dangerous, blue collar job that requires a few months of specialized training to get started and continuous supplemental training throughout one’s career.

It’s entirely reasonable that one should make a good living doing that kind of job.

But there are dozens of other jobs out there with the same characteristics. For every city firefighter, there are thousands of people who perform jobs with similar characteristics every day (specialized construction/miners/oil rig workers/fishermen/utility workers/trucking/railroad workers/heavy manufacturing/etc.) The vast majority of people with these jobs could also be qualified firefighters (after they receive the training provided by the government.)

The only difference between most other specialty blue-collar jobs and firefighters is the pay.

Can someone tell me other job where the employers don’t even bother to recruit and there two-year waiting-list for applicants?[/quote]

From the link you posted about Fire Recuit positions, those are specific positions that do not even exist in most fire departments. In almost every case, those positions are offered only with large, urban departments that have the resources to put their *recruits* through fire academy, paramedic training, etc. That’s why the requirements are so basic, and it’s why so many people sign up. Of course, lots of people would like to be firefighters, just like loads of people will sign up to be NFL players, rap singers, CEOs, actors, models, doctors, techies, lawyers, salesmen, etc. (even Realtors!) if you told them you would pay for their training and offer them a job. You’ll always get lots of people who apply, but not everyone makes it through. These positions are often used to recruit people to satisfy affirmative action quotas.

The small and medium-sized departments don’t have “Fire Recruit” positions. They don’t hire people off the street with GEDs or HS diplomas, and nothing else. Most of them require EMT/paramedic certification, and Firefighter I certification. As an applicant, you have to have obtained these on your own dime and on your own time. To get paramedic certification, you’re required to get your EMT certification and work on an ambulance for a minimum of a year, and then you have to attend paramedic school for another year. For Firefighter I certification, you have to go through a fire academy, which is about 1 semester long (full-time, all day…you cannot have another job during this time). Even after that, it’s highly recommended that applicants volunteer for a fire department (volunteer or student position) and/or have additional paramedic training on an ambulance. All this before even applying. This isn’t “just a few months” of training, BTW.

Hope that helps to explain why you get “backlogs” of people for Fire Recruit positions. For the FFI positions, there were NO backlogs of applicants during the bubble, and departments had to keep going back to the academies to fight each other for new applicants. Also, many existing employees fled for greener pastures during the bubble, either to higher paying departments in other locations, or other higher-paying occupations. The myths of “people waiting in line” are just that…myths.

As for the difference between firefighters and cops, I’d agree that cops have a much more difficult job, and they deserve to be paid more.

[CA renter]

[quote=pri_dk]Agree that we really can’t group police and fire together in this discussion. They are actually quite different jobs and the markets for qualified employees is likely very different as well.

So let’s continue to just pick on just the firemen 😉

From the SD Fire website:

The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years.

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/sdflssops.shtml

The minimal requirements are surprisingly modest:

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/faqcareers.shtml

(No height/weight requirement?)

This is the only data we need. It clearly shows that the market for firefighters is out of whack. Which means the price is not right.

Firefighting is a physically demanding, slightly dangerous, blue collar job that requires a few months of specialized training to get started and continuous supplemental training throughout one’s career.

It’s entirely reasonable that one should make a good living doing that kind of job.

But there are dozens of other jobs out there with the same characteristics. For every city firefighter, there are thousands of people who perform jobs with similar characteristics every day (specialized construction/miners/oil rig workers/fishermen/utility workers/trucking/railroad workers/heavy manufacturing/etc.) The vast majority of people with these jobs could also be qualified firefighters (after they receive the training provided by the government.)

The only difference between most other specialty blue-collar jobs and firefighters is the pay.

Can someone tell me other job where the employers don’t even bother to recruit and there two-year waiting-list for applicants?[/quote]

From the link you posted about Fire Recuit positions, those are specific positions that do not even exist in most fire departments. In almost every case, those positions are offered only with large, urban departments that have the resources to put their *recruits* through fire academy, paramedic training, etc. That’s why the requirements are so basic, and it’s why so many people sign up. Of course, lots of people would like to be firefighters, just like loads of people will sign up to be NFL players, rap singers, CEOs, actors, models, doctors, techies, lawyers, salesmen, etc. (even Realtors!) if you told them you would pay for their training and offer them a job. You’ll always get lots of people who apply, but not everyone makes it through. These positions are often used to recruit people to satisfy affirmative action quotas.

The small and medium-sized departments don’t have “Fire Recruit” positions. They don’t hire people off the street with GEDs or HS diplomas, and nothing else. Most of them require EMT/paramedic certification, and Firefighter I certification. As an applicant, you have to have obtained these on your own dime and on your own time. To get paramedic certification, you’re required to get your EMT certification and work on an ambulance for a minimum of a year, and then you have to attend paramedic school for another year. For Firefighter I certification, you have to go through a fire academy, which is about 1 semester long (full-time, all day…you cannot have another job during this time). Even after that, it’s highly recommended that applicants volunteer for a fire department (volunteer or student position) and/or have additional paramedic training on an ambulance. All this before even applying. This isn’t “just a few months” of training, BTW.

Hope that helps to explain why you get “backlogs” of people for Fire Recruit positions. For the FFI positions, there were NO backlogs of applicants during the bubble, and departments had to keep going back to the academies to fight each other for new applicants. Also, many existing employees fled for greener pastures during the bubble, either to higher paying departments in other locations, or other higher-paying occupations. The myths of “people waiting in line” are just that…myths.

As for the difference between firefighters and cops, I’d agree that cops have a much more difficult job, and they deserve to be paid more.

[CA renter]

[quote=pri_dk]Agree that we really can’t group police and fire together in this discussion. They are actually quite different jobs and the markets for qualified employees is likely very different as well.

So let’s continue to just pick on just the firemen 😉

From the SD Fire website:

The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years.

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/sdflssops.shtml

The minimal requirements are surprisingly modest:

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/faqcareers.shtml

(No height/weight requirement?)

This is the only data we need. It clearly shows that the market for firefighters is out of whack. Which means the price is not right.

Firefighting is a physically demanding, slightly dangerous, blue collar job that requires a few months of specialized training to get started and continuous supplemental training throughout one’s career.

It’s entirely reasonable that one should make a good living doing that kind of job.

But there are dozens of other jobs out there with the same characteristics. For every city firefighter, there are thousands of people who perform jobs with similar characteristics every day (specialized construction/miners/oil rig workers/fishermen/utility workers/trucking/railroad workers/heavy manufacturing/etc.) The vast majority of people with these jobs could also be qualified firefighters (after they receive the training provided by the government.)

The only difference between most other specialty blue-collar jobs and firefighters is the pay.

Can someone tell me other job where the employers don’t even bother to recruit and there two-year waiting-list for applicants?[/quote]

From the link you posted about Fire Recuit positions, those are specific positions that do not even exist in most fire departments. In almost every case, those positions are offered only with large, urban departments that have the resources to put their *recruits* through fire academy, paramedic training, etc. That’s why the requirements are so basic, and it’s why so many people sign up. Of course, lots of people would like to be firefighters, just like loads of people will sign up to be NFL players, rap singers, CEOs, actors, models, doctors, techies, lawyers, salesmen, etc. (even Realtors!) if you told them you would pay for their training and offer them a job. You’ll always get lots of people who apply, but not everyone makes it through. These positions are often used to recruit people to satisfy affirmative action quotas.

The small and medium-sized departments don’t have “Fire Recruit” positions. They don’t hire people off the street with GEDs or HS diplomas, and nothing else. Most of them require EMT/paramedic certification, and Firefighter I certification. As an applicant, you have to have obtained these on your own dime and on your own time. To get paramedic certification, you’re required to get your EMT certification and work on an ambulance for a minimum of a year, and then you have to attend paramedic school for another year. For Firefighter I certification, you have to go through a fire academy, which is about 1 semester long (full-time, all day…you cannot have another job during this time). Even after that, it’s highly recommended that applicants volunteer for a fire department (volunteer or student position) and/or have additional paramedic training on an ambulance. All this before even applying. This isn’t “just a few months” of training, BTW.

Hope that helps to explain why you get “backlogs” of people for Fire Recruit positions. For the FFI positions, there were NO backlogs of applicants during the bubble, and departments had to keep going back to the academies to fight each other for new applicants. Also, many existing employees fled for greener pastures during the bubble, either to higher paying departments in other locations, or other higher-paying occupations. The myths of “people waiting in line” are just that…myths.

As for the difference between firefighters and cops, I’d agree that cops have a much more difficult job, and they deserve to be paid more.

[CA renter]

[quote=pri_dk]Agree that we really can’t group police and fire together in this discussion. They are actually quite different jobs and the markets for qualified employees is likely very different as well.

So let’s continue to just pick on just the firemen 😉

From the SD Fire website:

The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years.

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/sdflssops.shtml

The minimal requirements are surprisingly modest:

http://www.sandiego.gov/fireandems/careers/faqcareers.shtml

(No height/weight requirement?)

This is the only data we need. It clearly shows that the market for firefighters is out of whack. Which means the price is not right.

Firefighting is a physically demanding, slightly dangerous, blue collar job that requires a few months of specialized training to get started and continuous supplemental training throughout one’s career.

It’s entirely reasonable that one should make a good living doing that kind of job.

But there are dozens of other jobs out there with the same characteristics. For every city firefighter, there are thousands of people who perform jobs with similar characteristics every day (specialized construction/miners/oil rig workers/fishermen/utility workers/trucking/railroad workers/heavy manufacturing/etc.) The vast majority of people with these jobs could also be qualified firefighters (after they receive the training provided by the government.)

The only difference between most other specialty blue-collar jobs and firefighters is the pay.

Can someone tell me other job where the employers don’t even bother to recruit and there two-year waiting-list for applicants?[/quote]

From the link you posted about Fire Recuit positions, those are specific positions that do not even exist in most fire departments. In almost every case, those positions are offered only with large, urban departments that have the resources to put their *recruits* through fire academy, paramedic training, etc. That’s why the requirements are so basic, and it’s why so many people sign up. Of course, lots of people would like to be firefighters, just like loads of people will sign up to be NFL players, rap singers, CEOs, actors, models, doctors, techies, lawyers, salesmen, etc. (even Realtors!) if you told them you would pay for their training and offer them a job. You’ll always get lots of people who apply, but not everyone makes it through. These positions are often used to recruit people to satisfy affirmative action quotas.

The small and medium-sized departments don’t have “Fire Recruit” positions. They don’t hire people off the street with GEDs or HS diplomas, and nothing else. Most of them require EMT/paramedic certification, and Firefighter I certification. As an applicant, you have to have obtained these on your own dime and on your own time. To get paramedic certification, you’re required to get your EMT certification and work on an ambulance for a minimum of a year, and then you have to attend paramedic school for another year. For Firefighter I certification, you have to go through a fire academy, which is about 1 semester long (full-time, all day…you cannot have another job during this time). Even after that, it’s highly recommended that applicants volunteer for a fire department (volunteer or student position) and/or have additional paramedic training on an ambulance. All this before even applying. This isn’t “just a few months” of training, BTW.

Hope that helps to explain why you get “backlogs” of people for Fire Recruit positions. For the FFI positions, there were NO backlogs of applicants during the bubble, and departments had to keep going back to the academies to fight each other for new applicants. Also, many existing employees fled for greener pastures during the bubble, either to higher paying departments in other locations, or other higher-paying occupations. The myths of “people waiting in line” are just that…myths.

As for the difference between firefighters and cops, I’d agree that cops have a much more difficult job, and they deserve to be paid more.

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