- This topic has 706 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 10 months ago by
scaredyclassic.
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March 15, 2016 at 9:58 PM #795792March 16, 2016 at 6:25 AM #795800
livinincali
Participant[quote=zk]
I agree with you on this.The problem is that they’ll need help. And who’s going to help them? I think the government should, but they won’t. The government would have to say, “your culture is fucked up.” And the government won’t say that.[/quote]
Only problem with saying that is you get labeled a racist. If Trump said something like that, the main stream media and people on this board would be saying, see that proves he’s a racist.
March 16, 2016 at 7:02 AM #795802zk
Participant[quote=livinincali][quote=zk]
I agree with you on this.The problem is that they’ll need help. And who’s going to help them? I think the government should, but they won’t. The government would have to say, “your culture is fucked up.” And the government won’t say that.[/quote]
Only problem with saying that is you get labeled a racist. If Trump said something like that, the main stream media and people on this board would be saying, see that proves he’s a racist.[/quote]
Whether you’re viewed as a racist for espousing the idea that some minorities would benefit financially by adjusting their culture depends on 1)how you say it and 2)(more importantly) what your other views and your other statements and your other policies say about whether you’re racist or not.
If you have a history of being consistently (even if subtly, in code, or covertly) racist or against minorities, then you’ll come off as racist. If you’ve consistently been on the side of minorities, and have always tried to help them, then the people might see that you’re genuine, and that you truly want to help.
March 16, 2016 at 11:22 AM #795806Anonymous
Guest[quote=scaredyclassic]Jim crow laws were not merely racist, they were part if systemic racism, not just perpetrated by individuals, but by groups. [/quote]
There are specific legal definitions of “groups:” e.g. corporations, clubs, etc. A government is a group.
What defines these groups is that the members choose to organize and choose to participate.
These types of groups can collectively make decisions and take action, including unethical actions or even criminal actions. The group, and its members should be accountable for these actions.
The flaw in claims of “systemic” racism and “white privilege” is that they imply that a race is a group that collectively makes decisions and that all members should therefore be held accountable for those decisions.
A race cannot collectively be held accountable for anything.
Any attempt to do so is the very definition of racism.
March 16, 2016 at 11:45 AM #795807FlyerInHi
GuestHarvey, who said that White people only are accountable for systemic racism? We know it exists and policy makers need to do something about it.
For example, the internment of Japanese Americans was a great injustice. White people were not held to account. Our government, of all people, through the President issued an apology; and we the people later paid reparations.
http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/clinton.htmlMarch 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM #795808Participant[quote=harvey]
The flaw in claims of “systemic” racism and “white privilege” is that they imply that a race is a group that collectively makes decisions and that all members should therefore be held accountable for those decisions.
[/quote]
No, claims of “systemic” racism do not imply that a race is a group that collectively makes decisions and that all members should therefore be held accountable for those decisions. Instead, those claims say that the government (or whoever is instituting systemic racism) is a group that collectively makes decisions and that that group as a whole should therefore be held accountable for those decisions.
There are two distinctions there from what you said. The second, less important one, is that not all members of a group that collectively makes decisions should be accountable for the decisions the group makes. If a senator speaks loudly against the Iraq war and votes against it and tries to talk his fellow senators out of voting for it, he should not be held accountable for the Iraq war.
More importantly, the perpetrators of systemic racism do not have to all be of a particular race (or races) for racism to be systemic. And certainly a whole race doesn’t need to be involved (on the hating side). It doesn’t even matter what the hater’s race is. Their race is irrelevant. Racism doesn’t require a particular race to hate another race. It only requires a particular race to be hated. Only the victims need to be of a particular race (or races). If a group of people makes a set of laws that demand that, for instance, blacks can’t eat at particular establishments, then that’s racism against black people (and it’s systemic). What difference does it make what the race is of the people making the laws?
[quote=harvey]
A race cannot collectively be held accountable for anything.
Any attempt to do so is the very definition of racism.
[/quote]
Saying that Jim Crow laws were systemic racism is not holding a race accountable for anything. It’s holding a government responsible.
March 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM #795809bearishgurl
Participant[quote=zk][quote=livinincali][quote=zk]
I agree with you on this.The problem is that they’ll need help. And who’s going to help them? I think the government should, but they won’t. The government would have to say, “your culture is fucked up.” And the government won’t say that.[/quote]
Only problem with saying that is you get labeled a racist. If Trump said something like that, the main stream media and people on this board would be saying, see that proves he’s a racist.[/quote]
Whether you’re viewed as a racist for espousing the idea that some minorities would benefit financially by adjusting their culture depends on 1)how you say it and 2)(more importantly) what your other views and your other statements and your other policies say about whether you’re racist or not.
If you have a history of being consistently (even if subtly, in code, or covertly) racist or against minorities, then you’ll come off as racist. If you’ve consistently been on the side of minorities, and have always tried to help them, then the people might see that you’re genuine, and that you truly want to help.[/quote]I find it laughable the statement that “your culture is fucked up,” only refers to “minorities” and also the idea that “some minorities would benefit financially by adjusting their culture.” Obviously, this idea came from persons who have lived a “sheltered life.”
I know this might be a stretch for a lot of folks, but could it possibly be that, in many regions of the country, “whites” and “white-appearing” people might benefit financially by “adjusting their culture?”
The “thug culture” as well as the “entitlement culture” in this country isn’t limited to just “minorities,” you know :=0
March 16, 2016 at 12:22 PM #795812Guest[quote=bearishgurl]
I find it laughable the statement that “your culture is fucked up,” only refers to “minorities” and also the idea that “some minorities would benefit financially by adjusting their culture.” Obviously, this idea came from persons who have lived a “sheltered life.”I know this might be a stretch for a lot of folks, but could it possibly be that, in many regions of the country, “whites” and “white-appearing” people might benefit financially by “adjusting their culture?”
The “thug culture” as well as the “entitlement culture” in this country isn’t limited to just “minorities,” you know :=0[/quote]
I agree, BG.
We are all fucked up in some way. Some less so than others, depending on the priority.I think that groups that are more privileged now and benefit from being part of establishment should focus on decency and supporting policies that are kind and compassionate, and provide opportunities.
Unfortunately, the focus is too much on hard-work. Well, someone will always work harder than us, and when that happens, should we be stripped of a decent standard of living because we work less, work less hard, or stopped working? If we espouse a pure economic model, then a lot of us would be in trouble.
Is talking on the phone, in an air-conditioned office, making deals considered hard-work?
March 16, 2016 at 12:26 PM #795810Participant[quote=bearishgurl]
I find it laughable the statement that “your culture is fucked up,” only refers to “minorities” and also the idea that “some minorities would benefit financially by adjusting their culture.” Obviously, this idea came from persons who have lived a “sheltered life.”I know this might be a stretch for a lot of folks, but could it possibly be that, in many regions of the country, “whites” and “white-appearing” people might benefit financially by “adjusting their culture?”
The “thug culture” as well as the “entitlement culture” in this country isn’t limited to just “minorities,” you know :=0[/quote]
As usual, your logic is lacking. And, as usual, your assumptions are pathetically off-base.When I say that some minorities would benefit financially from adjusting their cultures, that does not automatically mean that I think no white people would benefit from same. I agree that there are white subcultures that would benefit financially from adjusting their culture. Just as there are subcultures in all minorities that are well-adapted to optimize financial success.
March 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM #795811La Jolla Renter
Participant[quote=SK in CV][quote=livinincali][quote=SK in CV]
Certainly, if he really wants more of a “socialist federally controlled country” and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn’t.
[/quote]Of course he has. He produced a variety of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment. You may find those proposals well intentioned and they may be viewed favorably to the majority of the population, but they they should be considered an attack on the second amendment. Especially to the conservative right, which is the group accusing him of hating America.
He proposed Obamacare with a single payer option that didn’t materialize in the final law but that would have certainly brought the country closer to socialist federal controller republic. You may support that outcome but it doesn’t change what the result means. It means we become more socialistic and less capitalistic.
[/quote]
If he’d actually produced a series of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment, they’d be out there somewhere. He hasn’t. They aren’t. This is an example of the vicious lies that have been spread by his opponents. He doesn’t oppose the constitution. He doesn’t hate America. He isn’t Muslim. He wasn’t born in Kenya.
He did not propose Obamacare “with a single payer option that didn’t materialize”. There was no version of the law that included single-payer. And if there had been a proposal like that, it probably would have been similar to medicare. Medicare is not socialized medicine. Despite actual facts, these lies were spread by his opponents, even on this very site. Hundreds of lies about what was in the law. That you, a reasonably well read guy, thinks this shit really happened, is telling. No other president in modern times, has been a victim of this visceral hate that knows no bounds.[/quote]
What about the biggest Obama care lie of all…
“I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year.”
I have seen nothing but increases of my individual plan.
March 16, 2016 at 1:47 PM #795818ParticipantOne of the problems with racism is it can often be used as an excuse for failing to win some opportunity. For example three people interview for the same job and one person gets the job. Two others lose out but they aren’t told why in any particular detail. Just that they chose to hire someone else. It could be because they had a better resume, it could be they were a better fit for the company, it could be communication skill, it could nearly be anything but those that lose out on that job always have the convenient excuse of discrimination. It was because I was Asian/Black/Hispanic. It was because I was too old. This Asian landlord wouldn’t rent to me because I have crap credit, but I think it’s because he hates white people.
People don’t know the rational or thought process of another person’s decisions, but they can always blame it on racism or discrimination. A lot of people get ahead by their social relationships to people that are already ahead. They get selected over somebody else for a favorable opportunity because they know somebody rather than their qualification. People consciously or subconsciously will favor their friends/family/acquaintances or even people that look and act like them versus people that don’t. I don’t know that you can really change that dynamic, even if you had a computer algorithm that was objective based purely on ability, you could end up with a team of employees that doesn’t work well together.
March 16, 2016 at 2:20 PM #795822Participant[quote=La Jolla Renter]What about the biggest Obama care lie of all…
“I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year.”
I have seen nothing but increases of my individual plan.[/quote]Me too, LJ Renter. From 2014 to 2015, my “Obamacare (platinum) plan” increased by $122 mo and from 2015 to 2016, that same plan increased again by $170 mo. Since I have the only PPO offered in the SD region, I had to drop down to the Gold level for 2016 and my premium is currently $56 less per mo than last years premium (which was a platinum plan). I predict 20%+ rate hikes at the end of this year, which will undoubtedly cause me to drop down to the “Silver 73” plan if I stayed on Obamacare (I’m looking for a cost-effective way to get off of it at the end of this year). Currently my “subsidy” pays just ~37% of my now “heavily-inflated” monthly premium (now 231% of what it was BEFORE the ACA and ONLY because I dropped down to Gold). Also, in 2015, I lost 3 (out of 8) of the longtime providers I had been using intermittently for over ten years. Two of them finally “retired” and closed up shop, mainly out of sheer disgust with the low, low reimbursements post-ACA (acc to letters they sent their patients – me incl) and one of them left my plan, which, again, is the ONLY AVAILABLE (non-bronze) PPO marketed to individuals residing in SD County.
Due to the exit of SIX major PPO carriers from the state at the end of 2013 (who didn’t want to have anything to do with Covered CA … and rightly so), we now have no more choice in plans (but are told our plans must be “ACA compliant” to comply with the individual mandate). Obamacare provider reimbursements are now 1/2 to 1/4 of what they were prior to the ACA and Covered CA and county Medi-Cal offices as well as the IRS now “own” our a$$es if we are accepting any subsidy at all to assist with these (now exorbitant) premiums. These quasi-gubment and gubment entities can, will and very often DO bump us from our plans without telling us whilst simultaneously collecting our premiums (even more than once per year). These entities have the “authority” to decide unilaterally that we’re going on Medi-Cal (cuz they don’t “believe” the income we’re reporting and don’t “believe” the numbers on our tax returns), thereby causing us to have to “prove” our incomes to human county social workers (as if we’re on “public aid”) to have our Covered CA (CC) accounts “reinstated” (this takes many MONTHS). CC and Medi-Cal also BOTH fvck with the income numbers we reported to CC and change them to whatever they think they “should be” without informing us and we don’t find out until days, weeks, or months after it is done (assuming we know to log into CC and traverse to the proper screen on their nonsensical, clunky website to see exactly what they did). CC can’t even get a coverage “start date” correct. As such, they issued hundreds of thousands of 1095A forms for 2015 which were inaccurate and will screw up the taxpayer with the IRS if they elect to report the actual amount of subsidy they received (instead of the erroneously-reported amount by CC).
CC is supremely incompetent in every way, shape and form and the situation is so hopeless that it cannot possibly be fixed, people. As such, they should be summarily shut down and the sooner, the better. It’s a very sad “comedy of errors” which adversely affects the lives of so many undeserving citizens. I could go on and ON and ON here but I’ll just end this rant by adding that “obamacare” doesn’t exactly “work” on the “street-level” as its original proponents told us (or even envisioned that it would) and is the biggest dysfunctional mess I’ve ever seen in my life …. and this is coming from a former longtime “bureaucrat.” :=0
March 16, 2016 at 2:37 PM #795824SK in CV
Participant[quote=La Jolla Renter]
What about the biggest Obama care lie of all…“I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year.”
I have seen nothing but increases of my individual plan.[/quote]
How is this relevant to the discussion?
(Premiums have increased at the slowest rate in more than 3 decades since the law was passed.)
March 16, 2016 at 3:03 PM #795825Participant[quote=SK in CV][quote=La Jolla Renter]
What about the biggest Obama care lie of all…“I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year.”
I have seen nothing but increases of my individual plan.[/quote]
How is this relevant to the discussion?
(Premiums have increased at the slowest rate in more than 3 decades since the law was passed.)[/quote]sk, you’re joking … right?? Do YOU have “obamacare?”
Oh, and this issue is extremely relevant to this discussion. The “obamacare debacle” is the biggest gubment scam of the 21st century and actually the biggest scam on our country’s people that I have ever seen in my lifetime. The ACA is a horrible hodgepodge collection of ill thought-out muck and mire that should have never seen the light of day, let alone actually become law!
March 16, 2016 at 3:20 PM #795826Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=SK in CV][quote=La Jolla Renter]
What about the biggest Obama care lie of all…“I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year.”
I have seen nothing but increases of my individual plan.[/quote]
How is this relevant to the discussion?
(Premiums have increased at the slowest rate in more than 3 decades since the law was passed.)[/quote]sk, you’re joking … right?? Do YOU have “obamacare?”
Oh, and this issue is extremely relevant to this discussion. The “obamacare debacle” is the biggest gubment scam of the 21st century and actually the biggest scam on our country’s people that I have ever seen in my lifetime. The ACA is a horrible hodgepodge collection of ill thought-out muck and mire that should have never seen the light of day, let alone actually become law![/quote]
No, I’m not joking. If you’re asking whether I have qualifying insurance, the answer is yes. Almost all medical insurance sold today is “Obamacare”, whether it is purchased on a state exchange, the federal exchange, bought on the open market, or through employment. You may think it’s a debacle. Believe it or not, what you think of it, doesn’t actually change the data much. And the data is that the uninsured rate is down substantially. No measurable number of people have lost their jobs as a result of the law. And premiums have risen at the slowest rate in decades. Your single experience is pretty much irrelevant.
And the discussion that brought it up had to do with socialism. So no, it is not any more relevant to the discussion than your experience.
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