OT: Predictions for 2016 Presidential Election

[zk]

dup.

A lot of these lately, I know. The mouse on this computer at work (I’m on break) is kinda messed up, and clicks repeatedly with one click. Sorry.

[livinincali]

[quote=zk][quote=FlyerInHi]Zk, the reason Obama is deliberately hurting the country is because he’s Muslim and hates America.

The right wing has 2 narratives. 1) Obama is an incompetent idiot. 2) Obama knows exactly what he’s doing.

However, if he’s incompetent, he cannot know exactly.[/quote]

Thanks, Brian, but I want to hear from somebody who believes it. And “Obama hates America” isn’t enough, I want to know what they think is the reason he hates America.

“Because he’s a muslim” doesn’t really fly, either. Most muslims don’t hate America. I’d say only a very small percentage of them do. And I want to ask a believer (among many other questions) questions about their belief that he’s a muslim.

paramount? Anyone?[/quote]

I don’t think Obama hates America. I think he’d like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That’s probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

He hasn’t been all that effective at bringing the country together. It’s much more divided now than it was when he was elected. I think America is just sick and tired of the bought and paid for politician. He epitomizes that person and if there were a republican in the presidents role it would probably be similar rhetoric from the Democrats. I.e. Romney hates America because he sells it out to business special interests.

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election. We got people here comparing Trump to Hilter and he’s a populist racist that’s going to set the country back 50 years in civil rights. I don’t know that Trump’s ever done anything in business that supports that view and talking negatively about illegal immigration doesn’t seem to justify that fear. He doesn’t have a track record in political office so it’s a bit of an unknown. Certainly some of his supporters would like to see that happen, but I don’t think most of them do.

I think the 2 most important issues for this country are fixing the costs associated with health care/education and re-establishing the rule of law (No more we’re above the law for businesses and special interests). Both of those involve standing up to the special interests and their large campaign contributions. I think Sanders and Trump would be the most effective at doing that. I don’t have a lot of faith in Clinton or the establishment republicans doing that.

[FlyerInHi]

Zk, another narrative is, well… If you don’t understand that Muslims hate America then you’re naive. Don’t you hear Muslims yelling “Allah Akbar!” (God is Great)? That’s the only evidence you need.

Another criticism of Obama is that he goes around the world apologizing for America, even though we are righteous. But in the same breath those critics claim that Obama is so hated around the world that our allies are tuning against us.

But, logically, if Obama goes around kissing asses, shouldn’t “’em furner” like him more (at least better than Bush)?

[FlyerInHi]

Livinincali, like many others, you like to claim that the rhetoric on both sides is equivalent in hyperbole and intensity (code words for batshit craziness).

There are lots of studies proving that extremism is assymetric and tilted to the right, especially if the context includes the whole developed world. I know, I know, that’s elitist, ivory tower, intellectualism. Better to be in the gutter with the “real” folks.

[Rich Toscano]

[quote=zk]
…I’m hoping to hear something reasonable…
[/quote]

Best of luck.

[SK in CV]

[quote=livinincali]I don’t think Obama hates America. I think he’d like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That’s probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

[/quote]

Certainly, if he really wants more of a “socialist federally controlled country” and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn’t.

I think the reason that people argue that he hates America is that they’re racist. They don’t like having a black president. So they’ve made up lies to hide that racism. He hasn’t divided the country. The country has divided itself. On one side, you have people that are quite comfortable having a black president. On the other side, you have people who hate the idea. That he hasn’t brought those two sides together doesn’t make him divisive. It just exposes the latent racism that has been here for centuries. That racism has manifested itself as the republican party of today. Sadly, it is the perfect match with the bill of goods sold by Ronald Reagan, that the government is broken, can’t fix anything, and is the source of the problem. 35 years after making the argument, they’ve proved it by both making sure it is broken, and now have a candidate that plays into both the racist fears and absolute certainty that the government can’t help.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

I don’t know if you feel the same zk, but I’m losing patience with my right wing friends.

They tend to have a Trump like attitude about things. They use lots of sarcasm and “duh, you’re so stupid” type arguments. So, we’re supposed to be the nice intellectual, ivory tower elitists who take it quietly and politely. But when you dish out the same rhetoric, they get all in a tizzy.

ZK, do you feel that you give more in your friendship with that person? Is it an assymetric friendship where you have to be more patient and forgiving?[/quote]

I try to avoid talking politics with my friends. If a right winger brings it up, I try to change the subject. Even if it takes a couple attempts.

This particular friend kept bringing it up. We played golf together regularly, so we’re out there for 4 hours at a time. He never got the hint that I didn’t want to talk about it. So, I gave in and talked about it. I think I was at least appearing to be respectful of his views, and I think I was able to hide what I was really thinking. I was thinking, god, he’s an idiot. Not unintelligent. I know him to be somewhat more intelligent than average. But an idiot nonetheless. Not because he disagreed with me, but because he had nothing to back up his statements/arguments. Some of which were entirely nonsensical, and could only, in my opinion, have been believed by someone as intelligent as him if he was both unskeptical and had been emotionally manipulated. After a few of these (long) conversations, he said, “it’s great that two intelligent guys who disagree can talk politics and not get angry at each other.” And he was right about neither of us being angry (to this point). I wasn’t angry, I just thought he was an idiot. My opinion of him got lower every time we talked about politics. He was unskeptical, irrational, and couldn’t answer basic questions about his opinions. Again, my opinion had nothing to do with whether we agreed on anything.

So one day he posts some nonsensical rwnj stuff on facebook. I private message him on facebook, asking him some basic questions about that post. This time I mentioned that I thought he’d been emotionally manipulated by the right-wing noise machine, and I pointed out why I thought that. He unfriended me on facebook, and we haven’t talked since.

It’s not for fear of losing friends that I don’t talk politics. It’s because 1) what’s the point? and 2) I don’t want to think they’re idiots (and I don’t want them to think I’m an idiot, which, regardless of who’s actually an idiot, they probably will).

[zk]

[quote=livinincali]
I don’t think Obama hates America. I think he’d like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. [/quote]

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Surely someone here thinks Obama hates America. Most people who get their “news” primarily from the right-wing noise machine seem to be convinced of that, and I know we have some of those here.

I think they’re afraid to admit they think Obama hates America while they’re outside the confines of the right-wing echo chamber, because out here somebody will actually disagree with them and they’ll have to have a reasonable argument.

[zk]

dup

[zk]

[quote=livinincali]

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election. [/quote]

The political rhetoric spewed by the right-wing noise machine has been non-stop since before Obama even took office. Rush Limbaugh hilariously called the recession The “Obama recession” in November (or December) of 2008, before Obama even took office. The rw noise machine has been saying Obama hates America for 7 years. They’ve been saying he’s a Muslim, a Kenyan, a socialist, etc. for 7 continuous years. This rhetoric has nothing to do with the election.

[quote=livinincali]
He hasn’t been all that effective at bringing the country together. It’s much more divided now than it was when he was elected.[/quote]

And you honestly think that’s his fault? When the republicans have been more interested in stopping anything he does than in doing their part in governing, and when the right-wing noise machine has been brainwashing millions of people into thinking Obama hates America?

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=scaredyclassic]

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.[/quote]

No. America desperately needs Trump. The disenfranchisement, the resentment, has metastasized into full blown cancer and the people haven’t realized it.

Pushing it under at this point will make it worse going forward.

What America needs, is for Trump to be the nominee and for decent Americans to give him the pummeling he deserves and not just pummel, but give the embarrassing exposure that he needs.

Suppressing it will not make this cancer go away, it will make it stronger the next time it rises, which will be rapid. Literally, next election cycle.

No, the American people really need to see Trump and what he’s doing for what it is and to that they’re getting hijacked by the cancer and need to eradicate it.

Perhaps we’ll get lucky and one party will collapse and we’ll end up with a fight in one majority party between extremists and moderates.

Unfortunately, Hillary makes this less likely, IMHO as she represents the status quo that is leaving 90% of our country behind.[/quote]

We need “sunny ways” not “angry ways”.
Follow Canadian politics a little. They are facing the same issues we are with globalization, changing demographics, etc… They have chosen “sunny ways” in a landslide.

[joec]

[quote=livinincali]
I don’t think Obama hates America. I think he’d like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That’s probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

He hasn’t been all that effective at bringing the country together. It’s much more divided now than it was when he was elected. I think America is just sick and tired of the bought and paid for politician. He epitomizes that person and if there were a republican in the presidents role it would probably be similar rhetoric from the Democrats. I.e. Romney hates America because he sells it out to business special interests.

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election. We got people here comparing Trump to Hilter and he’s a populist racist that’s going to set the country back 50 years in civil rights. I don’t know that Trump’s ever done anything in business that supports that view and talking negatively about illegal immigration doesn’t seem to justify that fear. He doesn’t have a track record in political office so it’s a bit of an unknown. Certainly some of his supporters would like to see that happen, but I don’t think most of them do.

I think the 2 most important issues for this country are fixing the costs associated with health care/education and re-establishing the rule of law (No more we’re above the law for businesses and special interests). Both of those involve standing up to the special interests and their large campaign contributions. I think Sanders and Trump would be the most effective at doing that. I don’t have a lot of faith in Clinton or the establishment republicans doing that.[/quote]

I agree with the above post…I think from what I have read/seen, Obama has used racial comments in general to make race as a problem and a thing to divide the country. That has been something I have read/heard from even non-right wing nuts. This probably feeds into them then taking that and saying he hates America…

Also, I think every economic study has shown that the black people haven’t improved a wee bit anything since he was elected…Probably just another politician…or politics as usual.

flu, you mistake my Trump comments as someone who supports him. My disagreement is that I don’t think he’s insane and he knows that there is a huge segment of the party very disenfranchised with the whole thing and he knows how to tap that.

He could be racist, problem is maybe unlike you, I also think I’m probably racist too, at least to a certain degree. Problem is I actually think everyone is racist to a point. Some may not make negative comments or what not in public, but I even have family members that married someone else get tons of negative comments (black/muslim, white spouse’s parents making disparaging Asian remarks, etc…).

I suppose this is why Japan doesn’t have immigration. It’s one benefit (and problem) they don’t have to deal with…

As for Trump being president and starting to kill off or persecute everyone who isn’t white, even if he wanted to do that, I don’t think that will happen…maybe you do or at least put limits on anyone who isn’t white. If that were to occur, maybe we’d end up with another Civil war at that point.

I do agree with the above post that a lot of the Trump supporters are just out to look for anyone who isn’t establishment (special interest). Heck, Taylor Swift can run and she’d probably win (at least she’s pleasing to look at). People simply don’t care and maybe they are naïve to think that, with him thumb on nukes, but that’s where things are at. The people in political power are viewed very negatively (and they do have hand son nukes) and a lot of the Trump fans just want them all out.

I do believe that if there was say, a real world war with China, even if you aren’t from China, any Chinese or any Asian person is going to be in a world of hurt, even citizens or people born here. It’s just the nature of the situation and at the end of the day, if the shit is bad enough, I wouldn’t be surprised to see internment camps again.

It is a sad state in America (and tons of other countries) dealing with this now…

See all the corruption out in Brazil? Olympics there are dead (no one is going) with Zika and they are trying to impeach their current leader…

Maybe America isn’t that bad after all.

[flyer]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=no_such_reality][quote=scaredyclassic]

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.[/quote]

No. America desperately needs Trump. The disenfranchisement, the resentment, has metastasized into full blown cancer and the people haven’t realized it.

Pushing it under at this point will make it worse going forward.

What America needs, is for Trump to be the nominee and for decent Americans to give him the pummeling he deserves and not just pummel, but give the embarrassing exposure that he needs.

Suppressing it will not make this cancer go away, it will make it stronger the next time it rises, which will be rapid. Literally, next election cycle.

No, the American people really need to see Trump and what he’s doing for what it is and to that they’re getting hijacked by the cancer and need to eradicate it.

Perhaps we’ll get lucky and one party will collapse and we’ll end up with a fight in one majority party between extremists and moderates.

Unfortunately, Hillary makes this less likely, IMHO as she represents the status quo that is leaving 90% of our country behind.[/quote]

We need “sunny ways” not “angry ways”.
Follow Canadian politics a little. They are facing the same issues we are with globalization, changing demographics, etc… They have chosen “sunny ways” in a landslide.[/quote]

FIH, our family has always subscribed to “sunny ways,” and agree that’s definitely the way to go in life. Even though anger can be justified in many cases, imo, life is too short to waste being an angry person or country.

[svelte]

[quote=Rich Toscano][quote=zk]
…I’m hoping to hear something reasonable…
[/quote]

Best of luck.[/quote]

Lol!

[livinincali]

[quote=SK in CV]
Certainly, if he really wants more of a “socialist federally controlled country” and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn’t.
[/quote]

Of course he has. He produced a variety of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment. You may find those proposals well intentioned and they may be viewed favorably to the majority of the population, but they they should be considered an attack on the second amendment. Especially to the conservative right, which is the group accusing him of hating America.

He proposed Obamacare with a single payer option that didn’t materialize in the final law but that would have certainly brought the country closer to socialist federal controller republic. You may support that outcome but it doesn’t change what the result means. It means we become more socialistic and less capitalistic.

[quote=SK in CV]
I think the reason that people argue that he hates America is that they’re racist. They don’t like having a black president. So they’ve made up lies to hide that racism. He hasn’t divided the country. The country has divided itself. On one side, you have people that are quite comfortable having a black president. On the other side, you have people who hate the idea. That he hasn’t brought those two sides together doesn’t make him divisive. It just exposes the latent racism that has been here for centuries. That racism has manifested itself as the republican party of today. Sadly, it is the perfect match with the bill of goods sold by Ronald Reagan, that the government is broken, can’t fix anything, and is the source of the problem. 35 years after making the argument, they’ve proved it by both making sure it is broken, and now have a candidate that plays into both the racist fears and absolute certainty that the government can’t help.[/quote]

I’m sure real racism has something to do with it for some people. I do think hard working white people are getting tired of being accused of white privilege and racism every time some minority fails. I think the Social Justice crowd might be wise to tone down those accusations because at some point if you accuse somebody as being a racist all the time they might just decide to be a racist. What’s the point of denying it, might as well embrace it.

[Author]

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