ot. the life changing magic of tidying up: the Japanese art of decluttering

[zk]

Wow. Thank you, CAR. I really appreciate that. Clearly that took some effort, and I am much obliged, madam.

You will soon see, however, that bg will pay truth and reason no mind. She will ignore the clear fact that she’s been making stuff up. (In fact, there are more than twice the fabrications than the ones you mentioned just in that one post). What she’ll do if she follows her previous m.o. is pretend for a while that she didn’t see your posts. Then, when she thinks people have forgotten it, she’ll rebut it with more lies and more drivel that only make sense in her small, warped brain. There will never be an admission of making stuff up.

Just watch.

[scaredyclassic]

so its only been about 3 weeks into this decluttering tidying jag, and i cannot report that i have become a superior individual, however…it is justa fascinating exercise.

i have found things i didnt recall i had.

the things i am keeping seem nicer, not surrounded by misc. junk. things seem a bit more peaceful.

i like the table clear.

i still want to acquire things, but perhaps nicer things, never extra things. there are still things to let go of in the house but it hasnt happened quite yet.

a couple days ago i got rid of the vast majority of my ties for instance. they were old, in various states of disrepair , some dirty, some just unloved. why was i keeping them all? i dont know. i guess i recalled how much each one cost at the time, in 2005, 2006, and it felt like i was “throwing away” that amt of money. thinking about the 2 $20 bills that tie cost made it seem like those twenties were going in the trash….

but in reality id worn each ties 100 times or more.

and some just never worked for me but i couldnt admit it.

so now, just 6 ties.

weird. im used to a massive clump of ties. i dont think i have discarded a tie in over a decade. i would often buy a bunch due to various discounts involved in mass buying … i would like to buy more, but probably just one or two at a time…

having just 6 almost looks like they belong in a boutique.

my 6 favorites that spark joy remain neatly lined up. no big defects on them. no lunch stains from 09. just 6 gorgeous ties. each one a unique gem. each one beloved. 6 is probably enough for a while

bowties are a little unique because if you stain one side, you can “reverse” the tie and wear the stain on the back. thats a feature you dont have on a long reg. ties, because those ties are not wearable on the backside. so theoretically bowtiescould last longer because they ahve the reverso feature.

i decided to let the stained ties go. i once saw an old lawyer with really badly stained ties, almost bib like. i recall thinking he needed a full makeover. this was many years ago. i definitely dot want to be that guy. jeez. come on…

I also sold $980 worth of stuff on ebay

[bearishgurl]

CAR, I DID play with Turbo Tax last night but am now back to finishing up two more court filings before I can get Joe and Jane’s tax return completed. (I’m going to assume their oldest is in Kindergarten half-day.)

I just wanted to respond to my comments that you are taking umbrage with.

Firstly, if you read my comments about SAHP’s I stated that I was aware that there are some good FT “household mgrs” out there (you?) but in my personal experience with “friends” (most of my friends are/were “worker-bees”), neighbors and some family members, I just had not seen it. Instead I’ve seen obviously depressed “homemakers” who are addicted to alcohol, tobacco, gambling and shopping (or a combination thereof) and can’t see their way clear to mop the floor at least once every five years, take out the trash more than once a month or put their piled-up dirty laundry into their washing machine and turn it on.

Both FIH and scaredy have mentioned on this thread that they have seen same or similar and they’re likely not the only ones.

It’s one thing if this segment of the population is “retired” (with no minor children living in their residence) but quite another when they are attempting to raise minor children in the cesspool that they call “home.” Although not illegal (unless someone calls CPS on them and their kids end up being removed from the home), I feel that this behavior in adults amounts to child neglect and causes so many health issues for their kids and thus, is indicative of poor character in the parent.

Yes, not regularly removing trash from the home is a form of “hoarding,” which could be called untidy, messy or filthy. I’ve seen it all, first-hand, in households where the presumed “homemaker” has all the time in the world to “manage their household” but choose not to.

The way zk framed his posts here, especially the one where he felt he couldn’t entertain as he wanted to in a home he especially upgraded to do so (at great expense) spoke to me as someone who was frustrated with their spouse’s demands in this regard to which they (voluntarily?) acquiesced. It is not for me or anyone else to decide if zk is happy or not. I believe he stated somewhere here that he’d been married for 18 years. 18 years is a l-o-o-o-ong time to have not “traveled” or “stayed in a hotel.” (He clearly stated he hadn’t “traveled” since he’d been married.) To the reader, it sounds like he’s been (voluntarily?) incarcerated. I don’t personally know zk (to know whether he was joking here) so can only take his words at face value.

A very large portion of American adults (35 – 40%?) have been divorced at some point in their lives (esp boomers and beyond, many of whom married young). So, divorce is a reality among our peers and maybe us. A portion of those people have been divorced two or more times. I do not judge anyone for deciding to divorce and the “stigma” of being divorced has been gone for decades. But we all need to be honest with ourselves here. I believe a lot more people would choose to divorce if it weren’t for the financial ramifications of doing so. I do know that in CA, one thing is for certain. That is, the lower earner of the parties (or the non-earner) very often cannot and will not be able to support themselves (and their child[ren], if any) in the manner which they were accustomed while married … or even support themselves at all if they don’t work or otherwise have their own independent income. Even if the lower earner/non-earner party is eligible to receive awards of spousal and/or child support and the higher earner makes in excess of $200K annually, the lower earner still cannot support themselves properly unless they receive a lump sum award (or paid-off RE to live in) in lieu of SS, manage their investments properly and begin FT training/work immediately, so as not to (quickly) deplete their savings. This is because after the (much) higher earner’s income differential is factored in by the court, the SS/CS guidelines become subjective and negotiable.

Several lower-earner/non-earner types have utilized my services in the past for document preparation because they did not yet have an order in place for attorney fees and could not initially afford an attorney to file or answer their Petition and Summons. They were from all walks of life and had estranged spouses who made anywhere from $40K to $250K. I can safely say that ALL of them ended up moving in with local relatives in order to litigate their divorces and have a place to keep their children on their timeshare days. All but two are still living with same relatives up to 10 years later. All but two have minor children left in the home. One is now renting a room in a friend’s home. The other one whose children are grown is still living with their (now elderly) parents. I feel that their problems for failure to move on in life after divorce stem from mismanagement of their settlement funds (if awarded) and/or failure to obtain and keep employment.

My (limited) experience working on family law cases (I primarily prepare law and motion filings for civil lit) has taught me very well that it is utter folly for a married parent to leave the FT workforce (if they are otherwise qualified in a line of work) for a long period of time (5+ years) in order to care for child(ren) who do not have special needs. Divorce can happen to anybody at any time and often comes as a surprise to one party. Since CA is a no-fault state, the party who filed for a divorce and wants one will be granted one, regardless of what the other party wants. FWIW, the reasons for my own divorce had nothing to do with any party being a spendthrift, infidel or “messy.”

The reason the divorce rates are higher in some “flyover states” than CA, in particular, is because it is much cheaper there for both parties to live separately, plain and simple. I see that some of these same states are now mandating proof of attending premarital counseling before a marriage license is issued and offering marriage-license applicants other premarital contracts (such as obtaining counseling before divorce is contemplated) before a divorce can be filed.

I know that if I someday remarry, there will be a prenup in place months before marriage and our (separate and together) estate planning will already be completed. I won’t mingle finances, except for 1/2 of the “household fund” (utils, food, property taxes, fire ins, etc). If I end up purchasing a residence with a partner, we will each pay 1/2 cash for it and will take title as “joint tenants” (if living in CA). I won’t take out a mortgage with anyone else and won’t share legal ownership of my vehicle (my spouse can drive it) or any other assets I have and will not comingle them. My kids deserve an inheritance (if I have anything left) and so would my partner’s. If I move into a partner’s home (or they move into mine), I won’t ask to be put on title to their property and I won’t put them on title to mine.

I know I am not alone in my views here … not by a long shot.

I’ve actually seen cases where prematurely-disinherited (accidentally or on purpose) adult kids later made up credible-sounding stories accusing the surviving step-parent of sexually abusing them when they were minors (as retaliation for not getting any of their parent’s estate). Hence, we have a portion (5-10%?) of PC 290 registrants in residence in CA from all walks of life who were wrongly or erroneously technically convicted of a felony for a variety of reasons. These people are still being stigmatized by the public 40+ years after they served their time and/or paid off their fines and restitution. I feel that the lifetime registration requirement is ridiculous for one-time non-violent offenders.

There are frequently two sides to every story and a lot of shades of grey, colored by each individual’s perspective based upon their personal experiences. The only way to avoid that is to be crystal clear in your speaking and writing.

[scaredyclassic]

Just 6 ties. It’s actually mindblowing.

I may get rid of my stretched elastic undies next. I hate to discard any underwear. But it is inevitable at this pt. Of no return…

This could significantly deplete my underwear reserves.

[scaredyclassic]

I tried and failed To Discard underwear. Hard to toss clean ones.

Will wear one last time and discard when dirty…

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=CA renter]
FWIW, I tend to have the reputation of being a “neat freak,” even though it’s more of an obsessive-compulsive issue with certain things like floors, counters, towels, sponges, etc. I’m very particular about certain things, like finances, and need most things to be very much in order. This is NOT healthy, IMHO, and I do not think of my husband as being lucky to have me in this sense (I make it up in other ways). Even though my DH likes things clean, the poor guy has to live with me constantly fussing about one thing or another.

I do agree that messy-ish people are probably more laid-back (and very neat people are probably more uptight), but see this as a good thing. Of course, hoarding is extreme, and all the hoarders I know (with at least a couple of official hoarders in the family — yes, I think it’s genetic) are depressed and have some mental/emotional issues, but hoarding is not the same as being a bit messy or disorganized.

I like tidy and uncluttered, and this book looks very interesting to me, but that doesn’t mean that people who think differently are superior or inferior to the tidy folks. To each his or her own, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else.[/quote]

CAr, I don’t think that you can speak for your DH. You said that a good spouse is an advocate so I don’t think you’re being fair and balanced.

Think more objectively. What if you walk into a messy house that nobody had cleaned up in while. What would you think of the family? Would you let your kids go over to a house where packing boxes and junk are laying all over?

Of course there are degrees of messiness. But messes don’t improve, they get worse over time.

Talking about a fussy with finances, I’m not at all. I make decisions very quickly and I would not stand a spouse who asks me to justify everything. Friends who have to verify with their wives to take a ski trip or whatever are wimps. Just tell me you’ll get back later, but saying you have to check with wifey is lame.

Tidiness is superior behavior, just like you may think that faithfulness is superior. As far as a person being superior overall, then it would depend on the whole package. I made the “superior” comment in jest limited to tidiness.

[CA renter]

Not sure where I wasn’t advocating for my DH…would you mind clarifying, please?

As for being fussy with finances, I mean that I like to track everything, and everything has to balance perfectly to the penny. I don’t require him to justify all of his spending, and he doesn’t do that to me, either…though we always consult with each other on larger purchases and regularly discuss the state of our finances. I run reports regularly and we review all of our income, assets, expenditures, etc. I think it’s incredibly important to do this in a marriage.

A ski trip is a larger expense, assuming you’re talking about overnight trips; and even if it’s not an overnight/longer trip, it’s still important to discuss this with one’s spouse. I think most successfully married people would agree that something like this needs to be run by the other spouse. That’s not being a wimp, it’s being a considerate and responsible spouse. No offense, Brian, but you should definitely NOT get married if you really think the way you’re writing here.

[FlyerInHi]

About people living messed up lives being messy, I would be interested in tagging along with law enforcement officers serving warrants. I could be wrong, but somehow, I doubt that more that 5% of the houses are clean.

To be precise, saying messed-up people are messy is not the same saying messy people are messed-up.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Think more objectively. What if you walk into a messy house that nobody had cleaned up in while. What would you think of the family? Would you let your kids go over to a house where packing boxes and junk are laying all over?

Of course there are degrees of messiness. But messes don’t improve, they get worse over time.

[/quote]

While I personally do not like dirt, clutter, and chaos; I would allow our kids to play at another family’s home if we felt that the family was of good character and our children would be safe. I knew a few families growing up that had tons of kids (the stereotypical Catholic Italians, for instance), and often had a messy house as a result, but the families were so warm and wonderful that I would greatly regret not being able to befriend/visit with these people because my (VERY tidy) mother thought their houses were too messy. They were some of the greatest, most generous and caring people I’ve ever known in my life (my exceedingly tidy Germanic mother, not so much).

And messes do not necessarily get worse over time unless you’re talking about compulsive hoarding where things tend to build up over time. Most “messy” people do indeed clean; they just tend to have a longer time horizon than people like you and me.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]About people living messed up lives being messy, I would be interested in tagging along with law enforcement officers serving warrants. I could be wrong, but somehow, I doubt that more that 5% of the houses are clean.

To be precise, saying messed-up people are messy is not the same saying messy people are messed-up.[/quote]

Agree, the first paragraph is probably true (though there are plenty of OCD types who commit some horrific crimes), but your second paragraph is really the most important point.

[CA renter]

Other than your beliefs about sex offenders and the work ethic of SAHPs (and it seems I know quite a few more than you do), I agree with some of the points in your post. The problem is that you’re ignoring a lot, too. **Very few** divorced people can afford to live “in the manner to which they have become accustomed,” irrespective of their work/SAH status. That’s because the family pie is being divided, and without having a new source of income (new spouse, inheritance, unexpected raise, etc.), BOTH parties will be living on less while having to support TWO households after the divorce with the same amount of assets/income.

I know countless people, both men and women, who were working full-time throughout their marriages who NEVER got back to where they were before the divorce. That’s because most people in a marriage, especially a first marriage with shared children, do not consider their family estate as only being half theirs (or any other percentage). They think of the family’s estate as being ALL theirs because they think of themselves as part of a single family unit. That’s why everybody feels ripped off in a divorce — nearly EVERYBODY is made financially worse off after a divorce because you are receiving a fraction of the income/asset pie, but adding so many other expenses as a result of running two households instead of one. Most married people are just scraping by today; it’s not the least bit surprising that divorced people are struggling even more.

But I would agree with you that a second (or subsequent) marriage — especially where there are children from prior marriages — is different from a first marriage where both parents are having their first children together, and where they’ve not yet reached max wealth/income-earning capacity. Both people in a new second+ marriage need to protect the interests of their individual children (just IMO, as I know some people think that parents should throw their children to the wolves and not consider their prior children’s interests in estate planning if the parents divorce and remarry). Subsequent marriages are a totally different deal unless the new spouse is working full-time caring for their spouse’s children or parents, in which case they should be fully compensated in the event of a divorce.

But you still didn’t treat zk appropriately, and you most definitely twisted his words and claimed that he was saying things that he absolutely never said. I’ve been on the receiving end of that sort of treatment, so know how frustrating it is. I will defend posters whenever I see that sort of behavior; it degrades the conversation, and is totally unfair to the posters who are victimized by it.

[Hobie]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I would be interested in tagging along with law enforcement officers serving warrants. [/quote]

Brian: I would encourage you to sign up for a free ‘ride along’ with LE. It would really open your eyes. Maybe even to the point of questioning your political leanings.

[scaredyclassic]

I wouldn’t ask to check with my wife if I could go on a ski trip because I know I can’t go…

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=CA renter][quote=FlyerInHi]

Think more objectively. What if you walk into a messy house that nobody had cleaned up in while. What would you think of the family? Would you let your kids go over to a house where packing boxes and junk are laying all over?

Of course there are degrees of messiness. But messes don’t improve, they get worse over time.

[/quote]

While I personally do not like dirt, clutter, and chaos; I would allow our kids to play at another family’s home if we felt that the family was of good character and our children would be safe. I knew a few families growing up that had tons of kids (the stereotypical Catholic Italians, for instance), and often had a messy house as a result, but the families were so warm and wonderful that I would greatly regret not being able to befriend/visit with these people because my (VERY tidy) mother thought their houses were too messy. They were some of the greatest, most generous and caring people I’ve ever known in my life (my exceedingly tidy Germanic mother, not so much).

And messes do not necessarily get worse over time unless you’re talking about compulsive hoarding where things tend to build up over time. Most “messy” people do indeed clean; they just tend to have a longer time horizon than people like you and me.[/quote]

on the other ahnd, its kind of cool when we would go from messy abode to very clean house in 4 or 5 hours o “family clean up day”. it’s much more dramatic than minimal tidyings and has that sort of WOW factor that youre just not going to get if things are generally in order. also it’s very good aerobic exercise to quickly pick up a lot of things strewn around.

[FlyerInHi]

Have you ever been to houses with dirty light switches? The surrounding area blackened by dirty hands? I bought a condo like that. Build in 2007. The doors were also dirty.

My vacation rentals frequently have greasy light switches, door levers and refrigerator handles. People put stuff in the microwave without covering. They spill things in the fridge. They put trash in the recycle bin. My vacation rentals are profitable so I won’t complain. But I notice people’s filthy habits more since doing this.

When guests make a reservation, I see a profile with a picture. They also send me a message about themselves. Now. I pretty much can tell in advance who will be clean and who won’t.

[Author]

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