OT: Individualism vs. Collectivism

[jficquette]

[quote=esmith]Stalin killed 20 million of his own people in the early, mid 30’s by starving them to death and in military purges.

When is the last time a society that put the individual first murdered 20 million of its own?? When is the last time America killed 20 million of its own on purpose?? No difference between America and Russia??

Just to clarify.

Official execution figures from KGB archives speak of approximately 800,000 people executed during Stalin’s reign, or 30,000 people per year. United States could match this rate simply by executing all convicted murderers and rapists.

1920’s Soviet Union was largely a pre-industrial country, little to no machinery, low agriculture yields, etc. Outside Moscow and St. Petersburg, there were few doctors, literacy rate was well below 50%. (Also, did I mention 3-month summers and 6-month winters?) Famines were not uncommon. Stalin’s collectivization and industrialization program put an end to those famines.

If you think that letting large numbers of your citizens die qualifies as “collectivism”, go and read up on Ireland in 1845-49, and then let’s discuss why 19th century UK was a collectivist state.[/quote]

Esmith,

Stalin has always been accused of killing millions. I saw it claimed again in a history presentation on his life a couple of weeks ago on the history channel.

Stalin was the most evil man of the 20th century. You would have to back to Vlad the Impaler to find a worst person.

Why do you believe the KGB files? What leader post Stalin would want an offical record of millions dying??

Collectism letting millions die shows that Collectism as a social order doesn’t work.

John

[drunkle]

jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.

[drunkle]

jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.

[drunkle]

jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.

[drunkle]

jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.

[drunkle]

jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.

[jficquette]

[quote=drunkle]jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.
[/quote]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country. Do you have any idea how cheap things would be if no one or company had to pay income tax on their earnings??

John

[jficquette]

[quote=drunkle]jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.
[/quote]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country. Do you have any idea how cheap things would be if no one or company had to pay income tax on their earnings??

John

[jficquette]

[quote=drunkle]jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.
[/quote]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country. Do you have any idea how cheap things would be if no one or company had to pay income tax on their earnings??

John

[jficquette]

[quote=drunkle]jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.
[/quote]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country. Do you have any idea how cheap things would be if no one or company had to pay income tax on their earnings??

John

[jficquette]

[quote=drunkle]jfic:

you complain a lot, i wonder if you have ideas on what the perfect society would be. i’m guessing that it’s something along the lines of:

collectivism for the benefit of your preferred group (the rich, whites, christians, males, whatever).
marginalization, subjugation or slavery of groups deemed unworthy (coloreds, jews, independent thinkers, college professors, laborers, etc)

the discrimination conveniently fulfills both definitions of individualism and collectivism. where “we” as individuals actually means “we” the favored group.

hell, there’s no such thing as individualism in human animals to start with, except for psycopaths. anti-social behaviour is abnormal, not normal. the definition of “social” or “society” is the only thing that changes.
[/quote]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country. Do you have any idea how cheap things would be if no one or company had to pay income tax on their earnings??

John

[drunkle]

[quote=jficquette]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

[/quote]

socialism/collectivism has been going on for thousands of years. monarchies are still societies. tribes in south american rain forests are still societies. the grand experiment is not about ‘individualism’ per se, it’s not about anarchy, it is about protection of individual rights under the framework of a society.

[quote]

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

[/quote]

the founding fathers established a government in which the society protects the individuals’ rights.

[quote]

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

[/quote]

the government also provides you the liberties that you enjoy.

[quote]

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.
[/quote]

those goals can only be accomplished through the concerted effort of the collective. that makes you a socialist/collectivist communist!

[quote]

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country.

John[/quote]

what do you care for the money that other people have? you’re an “individualist”!

[drunkle]

[quote=jficquette]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

[/quote]

socialism/collectivism has been going on for thousands of years. monarchies are still societies. tribes in south american rain forests are still societies. the grand experiment is not about ‘individualism’ per se, it’s not about anarchy, it is about protection of individual rights under the framework of a society.

[quote]

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

[/quote]

the founding fathers established a government in which the society protects the individuals’ rights.

[quote]

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

[/quote]

the government also provides you the liberties that you enjoy.

[quote]

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.
[/quote]

those goals can only be accomplished through the concerted effort of the collective. that makes you a socialist/collectivist communist!

[quote]

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country.

John[/quote]

what do you care for the money that other people have? you’re an “individualist”!

[drunkle]

[quote=jficquette]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

[/quote]

socialism/collectivism has been going on for thousands of years. monarchies are still societies. tribes in south american rain forests are still societies. the grand experiment is not about ‘individualism’ per se, it’s not about anarchy, it is about protection of individual rights under the framework of a society.

[quote]

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

[/quote]

the founding fathers established a government in which the society protects the individuals’ rights.

[quote]

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

[/quote]

the government also provides you the liberties that you enjoy.

[quote]

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.
[/quote]

those goals can only be accomplished through the concerted effort of the collective. that makes you a socialist/collectivist communist!

[quote]

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country.

John[/quote]

what do you care for the money that other people have? you’re an “individualist”!

[drunkle]

[quote=jficquette]

Drunkle,

We have tried Socialism/Collectivism now for 40 years and our country has slowly been degraded to one with massive debt and bloated government. The American dream which started as a grand experiment is slowly dying. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Since big government has failed so badly then why try to make it even bigger? Its nuts.

[/quote]

socialism/collectivism has been going on for thousands of years. monarchies are still societies. tribes in south american rain forests are still societies. the grand experiment is not about ‘individualism’ per se, it’s not about anarchy, it is about protection of individual rights under the framework of a society.

[quote]

Why don’t we try something like what the founding fathers wanted. What do you think they meant when they inserted the phase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration. It wasn’t to condone the government running everyone life. Look at what a basket case California is. Ran into the ground by Socialist.

[/quote]

the founding fathers established a government in which the society protects the individuals’ rights.

[quote]

How can you have liberty when the Government is running your life. Telling you how much you can make, what you have to pay to the state, what you can do in the privacy of your own home.

[/quote]

the government also provides you the liberties that you enjoy.

[quote]

My society would be like the one Milton Friedman suggested and I have said it numerous times.

I say get rid of all government that has nothing to do with defense or law and order. Get rid of all income taxes. Privatize everything possible.
[/quote]

those goals can only be accomplished through the concerted effort of the collective. that makes you a socialist/collectivist communist!

[quote]

Imagine what an extra $2 trillion a year in people’s pockets would do for the country.

John[/quote]

what do you care for the money that other people have? you’re an “individualist”!

[Author]

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