OT: How much baggage will you accept?

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=CA renter]If you want to claim that a SAHPs contribution isn’t worth anything, then the contributions of the wage earner aren’t worth anything, either. After all, s/he would have to work to support him/herself, anyway, so it’s not like they are necessarily doing anything *extra* for the family, right?

edited to add:

And if the wage-earner derives any non-monetary benefit from this job in the form of prestige, social status, friendships, a sense of purpose, etc., then this spouse is LUCKY that the SAHP “let’s” him/her go to work each day. Right?[/quote]

that was my wife’s position as a SAHM.

that I got to go relax and have fun and hang out with adults at work every day.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]What control does any outside party have over what a sahm gets for her services? When would it ever make a difference what you think your work and sex are worth monetarily? How could anyone possibly destroy what you are doing with any agenda? This all sounds paranoid and weird. The whole thing looks like it’s based in some insecurity about justifying your existence.

I know a few stay at home moms and I can’t think of one who would be want to be caught dead talking like you do. Do you have friends who are all into sharing these ideas?[/quote]

Like I’ve said, Russ, I’ve spent years studying family formation trends and their economic effects on families and society. I don’t get my opinions from friends, I get them as a result of doing a lot of research. That’s why I know about Warren Farrell and Ann Crittenden, among many others who research and write about these topics.

How do these people affect what SAHPs get for their services? They actively work to change laws that were put in place to protect SAHPs — alimony, child support/custody, community property, etc. They have been chipping away at these protections for years. There is no paranoia on my part, but there is a lot of ignorance on your part, Russ.[/quote]

That’s the way it looks to me.
Are your views even in anyone else’s ballpark?[/quote]

i was bearish on housing, the markets…but somehow I myself was bullish on marriage, without any prenups.

not sure where my optimism and faith sprang from…

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=UCGal][quote=CA renter]The feminists are trying to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites who deserve nothing in return for their services. They are actively undermining the protections for SAHPs that many have worked so hard for over the years. [/quote]

Examples please.
Show that there is a feminist agenda to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites. I’ve seen the exact opposite from groups I consider feminist. (Women’s professional societies, NOW, Ms Magazine, etc.)

And you still don’t get my point that working parents are still contributing to the household in a non-financially compensated way during non-work hours – you don’t get to claim the 24/7 hours for SAHP and not allow working parents to claim the off-hours as well. This refusal to see this point is incredibly frustrating.

Here- maybe this will make you feel better.
CAR – you are a wonderful parent, wife, homemaker, and you are worth billions of dollars to your family!!!! Far more than any other mother anywhere.[/quote]

i never thought of my family or wife as parasites. but now that you mention it, how much would a single mom have to pay a dude for a room, board and general backup care for a kid. that could be easily valued as well…it’s offensive to think that way, because it seems to point out that there is no family unit. but parcelling out services does that too, though to a far lesser degree…

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=UCGal][quote=CA renter]The feminists are trying to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites who deserve nothing in return for their services. They are actively undermining the protections for SAHPs that many have worked so hard for over the years. [/quote]

Examples please.
Show that there is a feminist agenda to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites. I’ve seen the exact opposite from groups I consider feminist. (Women’s professional societies, NOW, Ms Magazine, etc.)

And you still don’t get my point that working parents are still contributing to the household in a non-financially compensated way during non-work hours – you don’t get to claim the 24/7 hours for SAHP and not allow working parents to claim the off-hours as well. This refusal to see this point is incredibly frustrating.

Here- maybe this will make you feel better.
CAR – you are a wonderful parent, wife, homemaker, and you are worth billions of dollars to your family!!!! Far more than any other mother anywhere.[/quote]

most parents think theya re doing a better job than they are, i think. i know my parents made me very very nervous, both genetically and environmentally.

maybe that will help me survive, but….they should have got their pay cut fr damaging the goods.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]What control does any outside party have over what a sahm gets for her services? When would it ever make a difference what you think your work and sex are worth monetarily? How could anyone possibly destroy what you are doing with any agenda? This all sounds paranoid and weird. The whole thing looks like it’s based in some insecurity about justifying your existence.

I know a few stay at home moms and I can’t think of one who would be want to be caught dead talking like you do. Do you have friends who are all into sharing these ideas?[/quote]

Like I’ve said, Russ, I’ve spent years studying family formation trends and their economic effects on families and society. I don’t get my opinions from friends, I get them as a result of doing a lot of research. That’s why I know about Warren Farrell and Ann Crittenden, among many others who research and write about these topics.

How do these people affect what SAHPs get for their services? They actively work to change laws that were put in place to protect SAHPs — alimony, child support/custody, community property, etc. They have been chipping away at these protections for years. There is no paranoia on my part, but there is a lot of ignorance on your part, Russ.[/quote]

That’s the way it looks to me.
Are your views even in anyone else’s ballpark?[/quote]

i was bearish on housing, the markets…but somehow I myself was bullish on marriage, without any prenups.

not sure where my optimism and faith sprang from…[/quote]
Like with the parent who chose you to be the babysitter. You made the right choice to go in that way. I am still undoing some of the damage I did by going in more the Carenter way.

[NotCranky]

My youngest blogstar jr. Is going to be 8 in dec.
My kids do not need a two parent household let alone a sahp. It has nothing to do with them. They get zero benefit out of my wife and I sharing a bedroom and little out of us sharing the rest of the house day after day.

What they need,
More and better mentoring. More quality time with peers and to continue to know both biological untts are crazy about them and will always be there.
What they need from their mom and I they could get with us living in separate households if we didn’t break up in a melodramatic fool fashion and play stupid hate games and victim games for years on end.

That’s not to say I am anti-family but at this point where reasonableness and respect would be involved anyway , it’s not that important.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]

i was bearish on housing, the markets…but somehow I myself was bullish on marriage, without any prenups.

not sure where my optimism and faith sprang from…[/quote]

Youth, idealism, and having nothing worth putting in the prenup?

[NotCranky]

Today I decided when I went to the gym, that instead of walking or running on the treadmill, I would strut at 4mph. Right away two females jumped on the treadmills to the left an right of me even thought he place was practically empty.

You should try that KEV.

[NotCranky]

Not to say that stay at home parents can’t expose their children to a great diversity of mentors, but if they are doing that like they should, they really should not get paid much for it because that money goes to the mentoring programs that working parents provide for their children.

Same 8 year old is in chess club, garden club and soccer with a diversity of mentors and with the best of peers. A working parent gets that done almost as easily as I do but is purchasing power productive much more so than I am in the meantime.

Take away the cleaning and my high priced sex, I am near as good of a SAHP as there is. WIth 3 kids, I am worth no more than the 30k including What vegetables I grow for seasonal eating and putting up because I do that on a pretty large scale, more than most working parents could do. The vegetable growing is a very low paying job on an hourly basis so it isn’t much. I do car repairs and take care of 20 acres in a pretty minimal fashion….keep a safe fire zone.

[NotCranky]

Whatever you do KEV, get unstuck. Don’t go around being presentable and moping and thinking about ways to find the perfect one. Get a couple or ladies of interest and keep your eye out for more, not necessarily sexual conquest, though that’s ok. , just not the focus, it will take care of itself. but just get out there with women who are available. If they are not take them away from somebody.Have you said Hi or Hello or what’s up hot stuff to anyone that caught your eye? Come back and talk to us about THEM not your EX.

[UCGal]

[quote=Blogstar]

Take away the cleaning and my high priced sex, I am near as good of a SAHP as there is. WIth 3 kids, I am worth no more than the 30k including What vegetables I grow for seasonal eating and putting up because I do that on a pretty large scale, more than most working parents could do. The vegetable growing is a very low paying job on an hourly basis so it isn’t much. I do car repairs and take care of 20 acres in a pretty minimal fashion….keep a safe fire zone.[/quote]

Russ – you need to market yourself better. You aren’t just veggie gardening and maintaining 20 acres – you’re “managing the family business”. That’s worth more, even if it’s the same work.

[NotCranky]

[quote=UCGal][quote=Blogstar]

Take away the cleaning and my high priced sex, I am near as good of a SAHP as there is. WIth 3 kids, I am worth no more than the 30k including What vegetables I grow for seasonal eating and putting up because I do that on a pretty large scale, more than most working parents could do. The vegetable growing is a very low paying job on an hourly basis so it isn’t much. I do car repairs and take care of 20 acres in a pretty minimal fashion….keep a safe fire zone.[/quote]

Russ – you need to market yourself better. You aren’t just veggie gardening and maintaining 20 acres – you’re “managing the family business”. That’s worth more, even if it’s the same work.[/quote]
I am just afraid to look at this thing realistically.Like I said, my wife would have to get 2 jobs. If we were in Vegas I would be quite expensive. My full value would definitely hurt the family …but I am an evil man so why should I care?

It’s a beautiful day to have the freedom of a sahp ! I wonder what those cubicles that all those power mongering workers are sitting in are like?

[UCGal]

[quote=Blogstar]
It’s a beautiful day to have the freedom of a sahp ! I wonder what those cubicles that all those power mongering workers are sitting in are like?[/quote]
This!
I’m getting ready to pick up my kids from school and then run a First Lego League robotics meeting. While waiting for them – I’ll have the car doors open, nice music playing, and a book being read. Definitely better than cube-life.

[NotCranky]

[quote=UCGal][quote=Blogstar]
It’s a beautiful day to have the freedom of a sahp ! I wonder what those cubicles that all those power mongering workers are sitting in are like?[/quote]
This!
I’m getting ready to pick up my kids from school and then run a First Lego League robotics meeting. While waiting for them – I’ll have the car doors open, nice music playing, and a book being read. Definitely better than cube-life.[/quote]

I put a vending machine down the hall so I would have the choice of making a huge fresh chef’s salad or getting the peanut butter crackers.

True story though. I loved going to Joann’s and getting fabric to make my little guys caveman suit for halloween and sewing it. Stopped at starbucks to get my special me drink of course(on the way there and back!). Made a cool oversized club from a stick and a milk jug. Paper mache over it. BOYS ROCK! Very expensive, model maker, seamster, designer….don’t stop me honey I am getting rich.

[scaredyclassic]

OK I MAY HAVE CHANGED MY MIND…

 

I SUPPORT CARENTER

 

I feel like there’s too much group energy against CArenter’s position,

 

 

so that has made me rethink where im at and why I‘m coming from this.  I hate ganging up on the underdog, especially when the underdog has essentially a good purpose.

 

When my kids were little, our life was total chaotic shit.  I recall thinking that the entire USA sucked ass because it was so shitty for us as parents.  We couldn’t get quality, affordable day care, hell we were having trouble just getting DAYCARE let alone meeting the other 2 criteria.  I felt like this nation doesn’t give a RATS ASS about parents or my woes and that that WAS WRONG.  Morally wrong.  Wrong as a matter of social policy.  Just mean and fucked up.

 

Somehow we survived.  It was financially crappy.  It would’ve been better for me to stay home.  Yeah, I know lawyers have a rep for making tons of money, but that is not necessarily the case.  It was about 7 years into my career before I broke 50k a year.  When they were little I was earning between 28-32k.  I had a large loan payment (since refinanced, but it was in the 1k a month range!)  with 1200 a month in child care expenses, I was literally working for nothing; losing money every month, really.  Plus the stress was unbelievable.  I got charged $1.00 a minute for being late to day care, and sometimes I was in court and had to HAUL ASS to avoid fees, or would get dinged $5.00 and warned about being thrown out.  Iw as just holding on for dear life and hoping for better days….or at least no more need for diapers… 

 

IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A COUNTRY?????

 

No.  no it’s not.  The richest nation in the world does not have to treat parents as crap.  And the reality is the nation doesn’t value child care, or parents who are struggling.  The nation has made a collective decision; you all are on your fucking own, good luck.

 

That sucks.  Now that it’s further in the past, I’m still a little pissed, but, as with many other things, you just kind of take reality as it is.  I’m not in the business of lobbying my legislature for a more child and parent friendly nation. 

 

The reality is no one gives a damn about me or my kids.  It’s all on me.  It’s an expense I undertook.  But I’m trying to keep expenses low….its not just worth a high priced nanny and whatever else I might like.  It’s worth whatever I have, but that’s not much.

 

I look at it this way.  I had a burning desire for a 3,700 watch.  HAD TO HAVE IT.  Now there’s a replica that is almost identical on the outside (not the inside, but the outer appearance).  It is around $300.  Did I really make 3,400 if I buy the replica?  Assuming I MUST HAVE THIS WATCH.  Which may eb as strong a bio drive as your desire to have kids.

 

Another example; friend of mine, childless, high earner, 40s, loves her dogs.  More recently, it seems like she’s getting a little crazy about them.  Very large dogs with digestive problems.  She is spending THOUSANDS a month on RAW MEAT for them.  Fresh—must be purchased EVERY DAY.  She ahs her hubby stopping to pick up the meat.  There is a lot of other work involved with these hounds.  If she were to pay someone to do it –and im not sure what youd have to pay to have someone clean up their diarrhea episodes…eesh—it would be minimum 20,000 a year.  She takes them to DOGGIE DAYCARE fer chrissakes.  This whole raw thing is gonna be trendy with dogs.  Dog health.  Huge vet bills… transportation.  Staying up with them at nite when they’re not feeling well…researching their health issues…

 

If she quit her job and stayed home to take care of those dogs, could she really say to her husband, hey, six of one half dozen of the other, savings is income, could she say that taking care of the dogs is productive in terms of cash.  It might sound crazy to you, but these dogs are her BABIES, she calls them the boys.  She values their health over her own health.  It’s nuts.

 

Well..seeing your kids like that is a bit the same…sure it has value…to her…maybe even her husband, I don’t know.  But it’s not making money, and it’s not really making the world a better place…not really…

 

Should the nation be different?  Should we provide greater support to parents?

 

Absolutely.

 

Would it be better if we valued helping parents raise decent children.

 

Absolutely.

 

Is It harsh out there?

 

yup

 

Is that reality?

 

yes. 

 

It’s life as we live, or at least as I lived it.

 

And also—— I HATE DOGS.

 

But I love kids!

[Author]

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