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no_such_reality.
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May 6, 2015 at 10:15 AM #785911May 6, 2015 at 10:21 AM #785912
spdrun
ParticipantDepends. The psychos who attacked a man with a plunger in NYC two decades ago are still living the Club Fed lifestyle. The Rodney King cops also did some time as I recall.
If they don’t fry ’em on state murder, assault, or abuse of authority charges, they might get them on Federal civil rights charges.
May 6, 2015 at 5:40 PM #785923equalizer
Participant[quote=no_such_reality]
Like the cops in the beating to death of Kelly Thomas, they won’t be convicted.
They’ll get away with it because they’ll claim they didn’t drive that rough, that they didn’t think it could kill him, that the driver didn’t know the others didn’t secure him in the vehicle blah blah blah.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
It is simple, you should not die in police custody on the way to jail when you enter custody uninjured.[/quote]
If jury couldn’t convict the cops who killed Kelly Thomas by savagely beating him, cops will not be convicted of a crime except for sexual assault on 20 something female with no record.
In Cleveland trial against cop for shooting 15 more rounds through windshield after no threat is coming to a close. Defendant waived jury trial because did not want to face inner city jury. Expect a walk because excessive force laws are impossible to prove since the laws were likely written by police unions.
May 6, 2015 at 8:07 PM #785925njtosd
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=spdrun]Sport, revenge, punishment, whatever. They’re accused of overstepping their authority. If they’re convicted, they need a few decades to think about what they did.[/quote]
We don’t yet know what caused his injuries, or why. We need to see what comes out in the trial.
In no way am I condoning what the cops did if they caused his injuries and subsequent death. We just need to know all of the details before we start accusing them of “killing for sport” (or revenge, etc.). If it turns out that they did more than just try to subdue/arrest him, then I’m all for jail time. But we just need to know more before we can make that judgement.[/quote]
There is a legal theory referred to as “res ipsa loquitur” which roughly means “the thing speaks for itself”. It is used to describe a circumstance where fault is presumed based on circumstances. Freddie Gray was riding a bicycle when the police began chasing him, so one can only surmise that his spine was intact. He was arrested and placed in a van, unrestrained (against policy) and emerged with a severed spinal cord. I can barely think if a more clear res ipsa case. I agree that an exlanation should be provided, but unless his spine sponateously broke in two, i have a hard time even imagining a scenario where the police are not at fault. The degree and distribution of guilt does require some investigation.
May 7, 2015 at 6:49 AM #785927Anonymous
GuestRight here in SD:
– Cop turns off camera and guns someone down, claiming suspect had knife.
– Video surveillance (cop didn’t know about) shows otherwise:
Police confirm no knife found at Midway District officer-involved shooting scene
These murders won’t stop until cops start doing time.
May 7, 2015 at 12:37 PM #785951bobby
Participant[quote=equalizer]
If jury couldn’t convict the cops who killed Kelly Thomas by savagely beating him, cops will not be convicted of a crime except for sexual assault on 20 something female with no record.
[/quote]Nope. even then, no conviction (check out second link).
http://bigthink.com/focal-point/new-york-city-cops-acquitted-of-rape
May 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM #785953ParticipantYet Justin Volpe is still rotting in Federal prison for raping another man who he thought hit him in a fight outside a bar. If a case goes Federal, there’s often a conviction on civil rights charges. As I recall, some of the Rodney King cops ended up serving Federal time as well.
(The Volpe affair is actually sort of a sad story. His father was Bob Volpe, an talented artist who became a cop and ended up investigating art forgery and theft. By all accounts, a decent, intelligent man. He ran himself ragged, driving 2000 miles round trip every month to visit his son in prison and dying too young of a heart attack.)
May 7, 2015 at 1:04 PM #785954FlyerInHi
GuestThere’s now an app for that:
Mobile Justice – California by Quadrant 2, Inc.
https://appsto.re/us/eLcz6.iMay 8, 2015 at 2:16 AM #785992CA renter
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=CA renter][quote=spdrun]Sport, revenge, punishment, whatever. They’re accused of overstepping their authority. If they’re convicted, they need a few decades to think about what they did.[/quote]
We don’t yet know what caused his injuries, or why. We need to see what comes out in the trial.
In no way am I condoning what the cops did if they caused his injuries and subsequent death. We just need to know all of the details before we start accusing them of “killing for sport” (or revenge, etc.). If it turns out that they did more than just try to subdue/arrest him, then I’m all for jail time. But we just need to know more before we can make that judgement.[/quote]
There is a legal theory referred to as “res ipsa loquitur” which roughly means “the thing speaks for itself”. It is used to describe a circumstance where fault is presumed based on circumstances. Freddie Gray was riding a bicycle when the police began chasing him, so one can only surmise that his spine was intact. He was arrested and placed in a van, unrestrained (against policy) and emerged with a severed spinal cord. I can barely think if a more clear res ipsa case. I agree that an exlanation should be provided, but unless his spine sponateously broke in two, i have a hard time even imagining a scenario where the police are not at fault. The degree and distribution of guilt does require some investigation.[/quote]
I’ve never claimed that the cops weren’t at fault, only that the claim that they did it “for sport” is hyperbolic and hysterical. We do not know all the details. From what I have read and heard from interviews with witnesses, when the cops restrained him, his legs were bent back at an odd angle with a cop’s knee on his neck. IMO, that sounds like a plausible cause of the broken spine. If you look at the footage of them dragging him to the van, it certainly appears as though his legs are not functioning correctly, though it’s not uncommon for suspects to be dragged to a police vehicle because they are not compliant. I can see why the cops might not think that anything was wrong with him at that point.
Were the cops trying to injure/kill him or showing a blatant disregard for his life, or were they simply trying to restrain someone who was clearly resisting arrest? That’s the central question here, IMHO.
As for his shouting that he was in pain, couldn’t breathe, etc.; lots of suspects do that when they’re arrested so that they can go to the hospital instead of jail. Cops hear that all the time. Of course, they technically should call the paramedics at that point (and obviously shouldn’t have loaded him into the van unrestrained, if that’s against their rules), but I think that a lot of cops get tired of that “I’m injured/sick” ploy, so some of them might not go along with protocol. That usually works out…until it doesn’t.
Again, we have to see what comes out in the trial(s) in order to determine whether or not they should be convicted, but to assume that they did this for sport is over the top, IMHO. There is clearly not enough evidence to support this (not saying it isn’t true, just that there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support it at this time).
Let me be clear: I am not defending them at this point because Freddie Gray is dead, and there is no question that rules were violated on the cops’ part. I just dislike the witch hunts where every cop is assumed to be guilty of the worst crimes, even when the evidence doesn’t necessarily support the narrative.
If we want to avoid “street justice” for criminals, then we certainly owe cops the same consideration.
May 8, 2015 at 6:46 AM #785994scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=njtosd][quote=CA renter][quote=spdrun]Sport, revenge, punishment, whatever. They’re accused of overstepping their authority. If they’re convicted, they need a few decades to think about what they did.[/quote]
We don’t yet know what caused his injuries, or why. We need to see what comes out in the trial.
In no way am I condoning what the cops did if they caused his injuries and subsequent death. We just need to know all of the details before we start accusing them of “killing for sport” (or revenge, etc.). If it turns out that they did more than just try to subdue/arrest him, then I’m all for jail time. But we just need to know more before we can make that judgement.[/quote]
There is a legal theory referred to as “res ipsa loquitur” which roughly means “the thing speaks for itself”. It is used to describe a circumstance where fault is presumed based on circumstances. Freddie Gray was riding a bicycle when the police began chasing him, so one can only surmise that his spine was intact. He was arrested and placed in a van, unrestrained (against policy) and emerged with a severed spinal cord. I can barely think if a more clear res ipsa case. I agree that an exlanation should be provided, but unless his spine sponateously broke in two, i have a hard time even imagining a scenario where the police are not at fault. The degree and distribution of guilt does require some investigation.[/quote]
I’ve never claimed that the cops weren’t at fault, only that the claim that they did it “for sport” is hyperbolic and hysterical. We do not know all the details. From what I have read and heard from interviews with witnesses, when the cops restrained him, his legs were bent back at an odd angle with a cop’s knee on his neck. IMO, that sounds like a plausible cause of the broken spine. If you look at the footage of them dragging him to the van, it certainly appears as though his legs are not functioning correctly, though it’s not uncommon for suspects to be dragged to a police vehicle because they are not compliant. I can see why the cops might not think that anything was wrong with him at that point.
Were the cops trying to injure/kill him or showing a blatant disregard for his life, or were they simply trying to restrain someone who was clearly resisting arrest? That’s the central question here, IMHO.
As for his shouting that he was in pain, couldn’t breathe, etc.; lots of suspects do that when they’re arrested so that they can go to the hospital instead of jail. Cops hear that all the time. Of course, they technically should call the paramedics at that point (and obviously shouldn’t have loaded him into the van unrestrained, if that’s against their rules), but I think that a lot of cops get tired of that “I’m injured/sick” ploy, so some of them might not go along with protocol. That usually works out…until it doesn’t.
Again, we have to see what comes out in the trial(s) in order to determine whether or not they should be convicted, but to assume that they did this for sport is over the top, IMHO. There is clearly not enough evidence to support this (not saying it isn’t true, just that there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support it at this time).
Let me be clear: I am not defending them at this point because Freddie Gray is dead, and there is no question that rules were violated on the cops’ part. I just dislike the witch hunts where every cop is assumed to be guilty of the worst crimes, even when the evidence doesn’t necessarily support the narrative.
If we want to avoid “street justice” for criminals, then we certainly owe cops the same consideration.[/quote]
The “ignoring medical complaints usually works out until it doesn’t” and is “technically” wrong comment seems coldly utilitarian. once youre in custody, for a short or long time, you’re at the mercy of the system and its players.
some small percentage of people may be actually innocent, a larger percentage overcharged, and some guilty, obviously, with each group potentially being a malingerer with a complaint…but everyone is dependent on the police to address medical needs. They have a duty to provide care, like a lifeguard has a duty to rescue, or a teacher has a duty to his charges…
cops obviously arent doctors, and probably presume virtually everyone is malingering or exxagerrating symptoms to some degree, unless they’re visibly in shock or have juicy visible wounds. But if a cop is going to play doctor, and make a medical judgment, hey this ones a faker, then , well, they’re violating the law, by practicing medicine without a license, and open themselves up to all kind of liability.,
many hate the idea that inmates of any stripe get medical care at all, since those on the outside who havent been accused get no free medical care. but thats part of the cost of running a system of mass incarceration that we have. the medical bills are going to be high. For the police to “screen” complaints is essentially saying, let the police practice medicine without a license, be our gatekeeper, like some cop/nurse practitioner.
on the statistically inevitable times when they get it wrong, them it seems fair to hold their feet to the fire, civilly and criminally, for when their illegal medical practice goes haywire. feel free to play doctor, mr and madame constable, but dont be surprised if the community you serve finds your errors to be the result of a depraved indifference to human life when you’re judgment is so dumb it results in someones swift demise.
of course, if it were your kid who died in custody because he had a knife on him, after voicing complaint of some internal injury to the police, the heartlessness of a lack of medical treatment would not seem part of the cost of doing business. it would seem absolutely sick and depraved on the part of the police.
imagine your son was writing in pain on the floor of that van, in his death throes, pleading for his life, feeling the a pain tantamount to torture, as the police took him for their trademark rough ride, looking back in satsifaction as his frail sweaty body bounced on the cold metal floor of the van, causing his final departure from this earth, where he would never again be held in your arms, his life cut short so that he would never marry, you would never see grandchildren, you would never hear his laugh…well, you might continue to feel as you do…
if you could say a few final words to him as he lay dying on the cold metal floor, would you say, hey dont do the crime {no matter how trivial) if youre cant do the time or also are not willing to possibly die at the hand s of the police…would you say “hey, shit happens”……. or would you be banging on the door of that truck, trying desperately to catch the attention fo the police, just as your son was doing in his final death throes, . And at that moment, perhaps you would realize, hey, those are actual beloved, precious, irreplaceable HUMAN BEINGS the police are taking into custody…not meat to be taken to the slaughterhouse….
these are our neighbors, our beloved children, our fellow countrymen…it doesnt seem that way…we as a nation have come to think of them as human trash…but they are not…
i know in my heart that cold utilitarianism would be out the window if it was one of yours in that van.
May 8, 2015 at 7:08 AM #785996Guest[quote=CA renter]Of course, they technically should call the paramedics at that point (and obviously shouldn’t have loaded him into the van unrestrained, if that’s against their rules), but I think that a lot of cops get tired of that “I’m injured/sick” ploy, so some of them might not go along with protocol. That usually works out…until it doesn’t.[/quote]
Unbelievably callous.
When “it doesn’t,” an innocent man loses his life.
You have a very twisted definition of accountability.
May 8, 2015 at 10:34 AM #786009Guest[quote=scaredyclassic] And at that moment, perhaps you would realize, hey, those are actual beloved, precious, irreplaceable HUMAN BEINGS the police are taking into custody…not meat to be taken to the slaughterhouse….
these are our neighbors, our beloved children, our fellow countrymen…it doesnt seem that way…we as a nation have come to think of them as human trash…but they are not…
[/quote]Where does human trash begin?
I can understand disdain for those who are below us. But even then, there should be respect for human life.[quote=scaredyclassic]
i know in my heart that cold utilitarianism would be out the window if it was one of yours in that van.[/quote]Doesn’t it usually work that way?
May 8, 2015 at 10:45 AM #786010Guest[quote=harvey][quote=CA renter]Of course, they technically should call the paramedics at that point (and obviously shouldn’t have loaded him into the van unrestrained, if that’s against their rules), but I think that a lot of cops get tired of that “I’m injured/sick” ploy, so some of them might not go along with protocol. That usually works out…until it doesn’t.[/quote]
Unbelievably callous.
When “it doesn’t,” an innocent man loses his life.
You have a very twisted definition of accountability.[/quote]
Not just callous but it’s cops administering illegal street justice/punishment. You know, the very cops that should be upholding the law.
Like is said, “out of sight, out of mind.”
I’m pretty cold, but I find it flabbergasting that respectable people so easily go with oh well “until it doesn’t”, or it’s just “collateral damage.”
Perhaps people such as CAr believe that cop justice protects the establishment and “our way of life” so she not only permits it, but tacitly encourages it. But cop justice doesn’t work. It creates a dangerous siege environment for all of us.
May 8, 2015 at 5:59 PM #786017ParticipantMost of the bad things that happen in the world are the result of indifference, lack of compassion or similar sins of omission, rather than actual evil intent (or sins of commission). I think people who are highly compassionate and caring are unlikely to become police officers because the job would drive them nuts. So you end up with a group enhanced for just the sort of behaviors that are alleged in the Freddie Gray case.
May 8, 2015 at 6:07 PM #786018ParticipantI don’t know about in SD, but a lot of cops in NY join because their parents and grandparents were police. But maybe the more compassionate ones either quit early, or find a niche that doesn’t involve street work. Investigations, or perhaps doing something like community relations.
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