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May 12, 2012 at 2:30 PM #743679May 13, 2012 at 2:23 AM #743702
paramount
Participant[quote=flu]
BMW and Porsche is more my cup of tea though..[/quote]
I found this MT luxury comparison revealing:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1205_sport_luxury_sedan_comparison/
If you don’t want to read the article, allow me to quote:
1ST PLACE: BMW 328i Sport Line
That’s First Place With a Competition-Killing Bullet
By: Jonny LiebermanAs mentioned, we sat around screaming at each other for over an hour trying to determine if the Buick was in fact a lamer duck than the Infiniti. We spent all of three minutes declaring the BMW best in test and best in class. This is not just a win for the 328i; it’s a massacre. A slaughter. Doomsday. Armageddon. I say this with a straight face: There is no competition. Not only was the BMW’s first-place finish never in question, but I can’t remember a comparison test with such lopsided results. Honestly, we had a hard time finding bad things to say. Aside from the as-tested price (see above!), the worst anyone could come up with is that the new 2.0-liter twin-scroll I-4 sounds like a diesel. But, as Evans logs, “That’s hardly a complaint,” and you only hear the clatter-clatter-clatter at idle. Let’s call it the sound of efficiency. As for the good stuff, well, our notebooks were boiling over.
Here’s a sampling. Kiino: “Does everything well. The epitome of a luxury sport sedan.” Evans: “What a car. There really isn’t anything this car does wrong.” Jurnecka: “Last week I was telling a buddy (and huge BMW fan) that there isn’t a single new BMW I’d even consider buying these days. I was wrong. I’d buy this car.” Febbo: “Maybe the most impressive thing about the BMW is that there is no superfluous stuff. They just built a really solid car.” Martinez: “Seriously, where’s the M badge?” Kong: “BMW wants to make my life difficult with a shocking product that is as good as it’s been hyped.” Nishimoto: “BMW does what it does best with this new 328, and thus the bar is raised yet again.” And from me, “They picked the appellation F30 for a reason. Like the E30, the new 328i is the ideal blend of engine, transmission, and chassis.” Seriously, folks, I’m awed.You want specifics? The BMW was the fastest car here (0-60 mph in 5.6 seconds and through the quarter in 14.2 at 97.8 mph), beating even the AWD Audi. The 328i rode the best, had the best steering and transmission, is the only car here with start/stop technology, gets a class-leading 36 mpg highway, has thebest laid-out interior, is the most comfortable, has an unbelievable nav screen, and, to top it all off, has the biggest back seat.
Want more? Of course you do. Moving from Comfort mode into Sport produced real, actual changes in the vehicle’s behavior, transforming it from a very relaxed cruiser to a sharp-edged canyon carver. And because of the $900 Adaptive M Suspension option (part of the $2500 Sport Line package) there’s still Sport+ to further stiffen the suspension, increase throttle response, and get the eight-speed auto to bang home shifts like a dual-clutch. There’s also an Eco Pro mode that turns down the climate control and throttle response to achieve more efficiency. It even logs and shows you how many extra miles you’re eking out. Long story short, the 328i is four cars in one. Let’s make that four excellent cars in one. Ultimately — and this cuts right through the heart of the sport sedan segment — the BMW was without question the most fun to drive.Click to view Gallery
Like Rory, I’m not a fan of modern BMWs. Not only do I feel the automaker has lost the “Ultimate Driving Machine” plot, but I think the 5 Series Gran Turismo is the German Aztek. But since I first took a spin last week, I haven’t stopped thinking about the 328i. “Maybe,” I tell myself before looking at my credit card statements. “Maybe I could swing some sort of sweetheart lease?” I mention this to stamp out all claims of any sort of BMW bias you might think Motor Trend has.
In full, glaring, retina-searing contrast, this BMW wins this competition because it does everything better than the rest. For now, all the competition can do is head back to their drawing boards. Like I said up front, I’m shocked.May 13, 2012 at 8:17 AM #743707
CoronitaParticipantBMW has one major problem right now…As do most german cars these days….
Weight…
When a f30 328 weighs 3500lbs…that’s right 3500lbs, time to go on a diet big time…And the mighty f30 335 weighs close to 3600 lbs (yikes!)…And even the even the 135 weighs in at 3400lbs…
Man…..BMW needs to go on a major diet…..I use to think 3200lbs was porky…..And that was 10 years ago….
May 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM #743723
svelteParticipant[quote=briansd1]
This is a an interesting article by George WillAre you a Prius or an F-150?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-american-dream-in-an-automobile/2012/05/11/gIQAhEWzIU_story.html%5B/quote%5DA relatively shallow article built by pasting together generalizations.
I don’t think the F-150 is the anti-Prius. One could argue the anti-Prius would be the Sequoia, the Hummer, or the Viper. Let me explain why.
I have thought a lot about what common characteristic my Prius owning friends have, and I have quite a few who own them. For the most part, the common trait I see is that they are risk-adverse. They are people who are quiet, they play it safe, and they love to portray an image that is likeable…who doesn’t like conserving energy, their reasoning went (I believe). Nothing wrong with that type of person, mind you. Just what I see.
The opposite would be someone who likes to take risks. Someone who is outgoing, takes chances, and loves to portray and image that not everyone likes. Large SUVs are despised by many, as are Hummers. Simply driving a car with as much power as the Viper can be risky also, which is why I put it in the anti-Viper category.
But a pickup? I don’t think the author, George Will, has ever owned a pickup. He simply doesn’t understand what motivates people to own them. I can tell you!
Well into my 20s, I also did not understand pickups. Then my father gave me his old truck because it needed work to sell and he didn’t want to take the time. So I ended up with his refrigerator white 69 Dodge with a black top. It was well worn, with the passenger side caved in from wheel to wheel. The bed bowed down between each cross member. This truck had been used for real work (prior to my dad buying it). It was unnerving to hear the gas slosh in the tank that sat right behind the seat, in the cab itself. That was common back then. At some point in time, someone had replaced the original hubcaps with 68 Mustang hubcaps.
I had intended to fix the truck and sell it within a month or two. But you know what? Once I completed repairs, I kept it instead. Because it taught me what trucks were all about.
They say two things about their owners: they are independent souls, and they are doers.
They don’t hire someone to replace their toilet, they run down to Lowe’s and buy one themselves. And they take pride in that. I love that I don’t have to wait for delivery or rent a truck. If I want something, I pick up the keys and I have it home within the hour.
The next time my wife and I relocated, we had to sell that truck and I miss it to this day. If I knew where it was at, I might just try to buy it back. I put a fairly high price on it when I sold it, just because I usually start high and slowly lower price. The first guy who saw it bought it. No haggling, paid full price.
Within a year at our new location, I bought another pickup and I’ve had one ever since. All sorts of things have been in the bed of my trucks, entire houses have been decorated, backyards built, camping gear and bikes hauled to campsites, pets made their visits to the vet, and its even been used for amore on a few adventurous evenings.
Yes, the American pickup is about independence, Mr. Will. Pure and simple.
May 13, 2012 at 1:34 PM #743725svelteParticipantOne more point about cars: Brian is right, people do indeed own cars because they make a statement about them. One proof point:
Henry Kaiser built his fortune in the aluminum industry. Late in life, he decided to create a car company and the Kaiser brand was born. Henry thought that America needed a base, entry level car again, like we had with Mr. Ford’ Model T. So Kaiser created the Henry J.
It flopped in the market place. Why? It turns out that, by the 1950s, people would rather buy a used status car than a new bare-bones car. Because it said something about them.
This same scenario is playing out today in India.
Tata Motors (yes, that’s the name of a car company) decided to build a base stripped down car to allow more Indians to purchase a car – they are right now selling the world’s cheapest car, the Tata Nano, for about $2100. And it is failing in the marketplace. Tata would have been wise to study the Henry J…May 13, 2012 at 3:21 PM #743726an
ParticipantTheir competitor’s weight are around there, so the 328 is no differences than the rest. So, I don’t see weight being as big of an issue as price. For a as tested price of over $50k, that’s more expensive than a fully optioned out IS350, C350, and G37. Those 3 fully optioned out at <$45k. A fully optioned out S4 is $47k. For a base 3 series to be 15% more than the competitor's top of the line, that's pretty ridiculous. If I'm ok with spending 6-8k more, I'd rather get a S4. I also find it interesting that for a car that's rated with the best MPG in the class, it's as test MPG is quite low. No where near the top of the class. Something doesn't sound right. Also, this comparo is comparing cars of last gen's vs the newest 328. Would be interesting to see how the other cars shape up when they too will release the next gen w/in the in 1-2 years.
May 13, 2012 at 3:53 PM #743729Participant[quote=flu]BMW has one major problem right now…As do most german cars these days….
Weight…
When a f30 328 weighs 3500lbs…that’s right 3500lbs, time to go on a diet big time…And the mighty f30 335 weighs close to 3600 lbs (yikes!)…And even the even the 135 weighs in at 3400lbs…
Man…..BMW needs to go on a major diet…..I use to think 3200lbs was porky…..And that was 10 years ago….[/quote]
Nissan seem to agree with you and me: Linky. 15% weight reduction will mean the G-series will weight around 3100lb. I hope they’re successful and the rest of the market head in that direction as well.May 14, 2012 at 6:47 AM #743740svelteParticipant[quote=paramount]
I found this MT luxury comparison revealing:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1205_sport_luxury_sedan_comparison/
If you don’t want to read the article, allow me to quote:
1ST PLACE: BMW 328i Sport Line
That’s First Place With a Competition-Killing Bullet
By: Jonny Lieberman[/quote]
Or from the June 2012 MT:
BMW 535i – 2nd Place (1st place, Lexus)
“It’s no secret that we haven’t exactly turned cartwheels over this latest generation of 5 Series. Two years ago, when the so-called F10 debuted, it didn’t even make it to Round 2 of our Car of the Year competition. And that was a year after the last iteration of the previous-gen E60 won an eight-car comparison test. Talk about following in the footsteps of greatness – and stumbling.”
..
“Immediately after turn-in, there comes a behavior that is very non-BMW: Plowing”
BMWs are very nice cars, yes. But they are far from perfect as flu points out.
May 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM #743754CoronitaParticipant[quote=svelte][quote=paramount]
I found this MT luxury comparison revealing:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1205_sport_luxury_sedan_comparison/
If you don’t want to read the article, allow me to quote:
1ST PLACE: BMW 328i Sport Line
That’s First Place With a Competition-Killing Bullet
By: Jonny Lieberman[/quote]
Or from the June 2012 MT:
BMW 535i – 2nd Place (1st place, Lexus)
“It’s no secret that we haven’t exactly turned cartwheels over this latest generation of 5 Series. Two years ago, when the so-called F10 debuted, it didn’t even make it to Round 2 of our Car of the Year competition. And that was a year after the last iteration of the previous-gen E60 won an eight-car comparison test. Talk about following in the footsteps of greatness – and stumbling.”
..
“Immediately after turn-in, there comes a behavior that is very non-BMW: Plowing”
BMWs are very nice cars, yes. But they are far from perfect as flu points out.[/quote]
Imho…As much as I like the 5 series these days… I really get annoyed for a lot of things that happened. It weighs too much now… Also, putting in electronic steering really drove me up the wall. I guess I prefer more of a actual rack… Putting in the e-brake is totally stupid too…
In reality…The new 5 series will sell well too more people. Because it’s probably more well mannered than the previous generation.
Well , I guess for the M5, they put back in a real steering rack…So maybe it’s fine.
May 14, 2012 at 11:01 AM #743756CoronitaParticipant[quote=AN][quote=flu]BMW has one major problem right now…As do most german cars these days….
Weight…
When a f30 328 weighs 3500lbs…that’s right 3500lbs, time to go on a diet big time…And the mighty f30 335 weighs close to 3600 lbs (yikes!)…And even the even the 135 weighs in at 3400lbs…
Man…..BMW needs to go on a major diet…..I use to think 3200lbs was porky…..And that was 10 years ago….[/quote]
Nissan seem to agree with you and me: Linky. 15% weight reduction will mean the G-series will weight around 3100lb. I hope they’re successful and the rest of the market head in that direction as well.[/quote]Nissan looks like they might be using a mercedes engine in the next generation G…
http://automotivediscovery.com/new-infiniti-g-has-mercedes-sourced-engine/9213167/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/11/next-infiniti-g-to-use-mercedes-sourced-engines/though it looks like it might be built in the nissan plant in Tennessee
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/10/nissan-agrees-to-make-engines-for-mercedes-in-tennessee/
So basically what we’ll have here is
….. a Mercedes designed engine
….. that will be built in a Nissan factory
….. in the USA by american workers
….. that will find it’s way to both an Infiniti and a Mercedes product…Wow, my head is spinning… I guess trying to explain the complexity of this to people like paddyoh about ditching Jeff Bridges would be too hard 🙂
BTW: imho Nissan needs to redesign the G big time…It’s a great car, but the second generation imho didn’t go that far enough from the first generation.. and imho the current exterior design is getting dated… Nissan needs to take it up one notch again with something new.. Hopefully not in the BMW-bangled or Acura-attrocious direction…
May 14, 2012 at 11:08 AM #743759Participant[quote=flu]
Nissan looks like they might be using a mercedes engine in the next generation G…http://automotivediscovery.com/new-infiniti-g-has-mercedes-sourced-engine/9213167/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/11/next-infiniti-g-to-use-mercedes-sourced-engines/though it looks like it might be built in the nissan plant in Tennessee
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/10/nissan-agrees-to-make-engines-for-mercedes-in-tennessee/
So basically what we’ll have here is
….. a Mercedes designed engine
….. that will be built in a Nissan factory
….. in the USA by american workers
….. that will find it’s way to both an Infiniti and a Mercedes product…Wow, my head is spinning… I guess trying to explain the complexity of this to people like paddyoh about ditching Jeff Bridges would be too hard :)[/quote]
Nissan filed for the G22d, G30t, and G35h trademark. AFAIK, Nissan will use the Mercedes 2.2L diesel, but they’ll develop their own V6 and the G35h will be the same system in the M35h. If the trademark covers all of the G model, it seems like the G22d will be competing against the 328. It’ll get much better gas mileage but we’ll see if it can compete with the performance. The G35h will give you both performance and MPG. I’m most interested in seeing what the G30t will be.Also, the next G will be using the next C-class’s platform as well, not just the engine. Mercedes also claimed their next C-class will get 20% better MPG by losing weight and increasing aerodynamics. The next G was supposed to be out this year, but they had to postpone it due to this deal, since the C-class is on a different cycle and it wont come out until 2014.
Nissan also confirm that they’ll build more of their cars in the US, at least the one that will be sold in the US. This is due to the Yen being too strong. It would be funny if Nissan build more cars in the US for the US market than GM :-D.
May 14, 2012 at 11:14 AM #743761ucodegen
Participant[quote flu]Well , I guess for the M5, they put back in a real steering rack…So maybe it’s fine.[/quote]Actually it is a real steering rack. The power assist is now done with an electric motor as opposed to a power steering pump. Of course with the way that BMW has now done the electronics on this, ‘disabling’ the electronic steering will prevent the car from starting (or even having a sensor problem on the power assist will prevent car from starting – Simpson moment doh!) – kind of dumb, since the vehicle is still able to be steered w/o power assist.. they just did not put in a reasonable failsafe mode.
As for the problem with the steering, I think that BMW needs to work on their power assist profiles. The Electric motor is used instead of a standard power steering pump so that they can vary the ‘power assist’. What is interesting about power steering systems, is that some amount of ‘play’ in the steering system is required for them to function (to sense that the driver is applying torque in a direction). With old fashioned hydraulic systems, it was just enough motion to open a spool valve. On Saginaw systems, there is a torque beam that is used to transfer torque through the spool valve, and if enough torque is given to deform steering.. opens the spool valve. These systems could be ‘tuned’ by opening up the power steering units and changing the torque beam. Unfortunately most manufacturers tended to set the Sanginaws up with a very weak beam, giving almost no road feel.
— sorry, got a little OT here on steering. Been wrenching around w/ cars too much of my life.May 14, 2012 at 11:16 AM #743762Participant[quote=flu]BTW: imho Nissan needs to redesign the G big time…It’s a great car, but the second generation imho didn’t go that far enough from the first generation.. and imho the current exterior design is getting dated… Nissan needs to take it up one notch again with something new.. Hopefully not in the BMW-bangled or Acura-attrocious direction…[/quote]
I totally agree, the 2nd gen G didn’t one up the competition like the original G did. Which is why I didn’t feel the need to upgrade. Back in 2003, when the G came out, the 330i was making 225HP and 214 ft-lb while the G was making 280HP and 270ft-lb. It wipes the 330i in every performance category, which is why it was 2003’s MT car of the year. BMW took back the performance crown with the 335i.The exterior is 4-5 years old, so yes, they need and they will get updated. The 2nd G sedan looks better than the 1st gen but I still like the 1st gen Coupe better. I’m hoping the G30t will be turbo V-6 and it’ll be lighter than the current G (hopefully it’ll be around 3200-3300lb).
I actually love the BMW-bangled. I like the last gen 3-series more than the newest 3-series, same with the 5-series.
May 14, 2012 at 11:25 AM #743763CoronitaParticipant[quote=ucodegen][quote flu]Well , I guess for the M5, they put back in a real steering rack…So maybe it’s fine.[/quote]Actually it is a real steering rack. The power assist is now done with an electric motor as opposed to a power steering pump. Of course with the way that BMW has now done the electronics on this, ‘disabling’ the electronic steering will prevent the car from starting (or even having a sensor problem on the power assist will prevent car from starting – Simpson moment doh!) – kind of dumb, since the vehicle is still able to be steered w/o power assist.. they just did not put in a reasonable failsafe mode.
As for the problem with the steering, I think that BMW needs to work on their power assist profiles. The Electric motor is used instead of a standard power steering pump so that they can vary the ‘power assist’. What is interesting about power steering systems, is that some amount of ‘play’ in the steering system is required for them to function (to sense that the driver is applying torque in a direction). With old fashioned hydraulic systems, it was just enough motion to open a spool valve. On Saginaw systems, there is a torque beam that is used to transfer torque through the spool valve, and if enough torque is given to deform steering.. opens the spool valve. These systems could be ‘tuned’ by opening up the power steering units and changing the torque beam. Unfortunately most manufacturers tended to set the Sanginaws up with a very weak beam, giving almost no road feel.
— sorry, got a little OT here on steering. Been wrenching around w/ cars too much of my life.[/quote]Sorry… I defer to you… I’m still under warranty so I haven’t had a need to take it apart yet… The ridiculous gimmick is that you can set the thing to sports+ mode (or something like that) and it “simulates” a road feel… Not really….Disconnected from reality imho… Well not my car, my dad’s… And he likes it so that’s all that matters…
May 14, 2012 at 11:27 AM #743766CoronitaParticipant[quote=AN][quote=flu]BTW: imho Nissan needs to redesign the G big time…It’s a great car, but the second generation imho didn’t go that far enough from the first generation.. and imho the current exterior design is getting dated… Nissan needs to take it up one notch again with something new.. Hopefully not in the BMW-bangled or Acura-attrocious direction…[/quote]
I totally agree, the 2nd gen G didn’t one up the competition like the original G did. Which is why I didn’t feel the need to upgrade. Back in 2003, when the G came out, the 330i was making 225HP and 214 ft-lb while the G was making 280HP and 270ft-lb. It wipes the 330i in every performance category, which is why it was 2003’s MT car of the year. BMW took back the performance crown with the 335i.The exterior is 4-5 years old, so yes, they need and they will get updated. The 2nd G sedan looks better than the 1st gen but I still like the 1st gen Coupe better. I’m hoping the G30t will be turbo V-6 and it’ll be lighter than the current G (hopefully it’ll be around 3200-3300lb).
I actually love the BMW-bangled. I like the last gen 3-series more than the newest 3-series, same with the 5-series.[/quote]
I wish Infiniti would really do something with IPL and bring an M challenger. As much as I like the GT-R. It’s in it’s own league…
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