OT – BMW M3 Automatic

[jpinpb]

OT – Something other than politics and grim economy.

I’m late in receiving this news as I’ve been preoccupied w/work and economic disasters, but I know there are some car enthusiasts on this board – and you’re probably already aware of this. There’s probably a thread already here somewhere buried (direct me, if so)

Anyway, I was reading about it and you know I’m a clutch person, so I was blown away when I read this. It’ll be like driving an Enzo!

MSN story

Is the manual transmission — the tormentor of generations of driver’s ed students — going the way of the buggy whip, the eight-track, the Hummer? That sounds like heresy to driving purists like me, who have always assumed that automatics are for wimps, for people who couldn’t tell a clutch pedal from a daisy petal.

Yet here I am, flying at 140 mph down the banked straightaway at Pocono Speedway in the new BMW M3. This 400-horsepower beauty of a sports sedan happens to be equipped with BMW’s latest high-tech, no-clutch-pedal 7-speed automated-manual transmission — basically a manual gearbox that can shift by itself.

A right-hand turn approaches, and it’s time to stand on the brakes. But instead of mashing the clutch, yanking the stick and blipping the gas with the same foot that’s squeezing the brake — the old “heel and toe” downshift maneuver — I simply flick a little metal paddle attached to the steering column. Both hands stay put on the steering wheel, making it easier to stay on path.

With no clutch pedal to push, my left foot sits there, as unoccupied as a teenager on summer vacation. The BMW even blips its own throttle automatically, danke schoen, making sure the dolt behind the wheel doesn’t screw it up. I arrive back in the pits, and the guilty thought flashes like a checkered flag: What’s the point of a stick, if I can have a self-shifting transmission this good?

Let’s be clear: I’ve been a stick-shift disciple for nearly 30 years. In fact, I’ve never owned an automatic transmission car in my life. But these new gearboxes are just so versatile, so easy — swift, precise, convenient – that I’m considering a date with the dark side. As with similar systems, BMW’s M DCT with Drivelogic offers the best of both worlds: Sit back, relax, drive it like any conventional automatic. But when the curvy road beckons you can shift manually, even selecting settings that boost the intensity of gear changes until you’re in Speed Racer territory.

Manually shifted transmissions are certainly an endangered species. Back in 1980, more than 35 percent of all cars were sold with a stick. Because they cost less and boosted fuel mileage, manuals were more popular when gas prices went up or the economy went down, according to Mike Omotoso, powertrain analyst for J.D. Power and Associates.

Then the SUV appeared, which often came automatic-only. By 2005 only 6 percent of all buyers bothered with a stick. Skyrocketing fuel prices and more choices in small cars brought a mild uptick to 7.7 percent last year, but the trend is clear.

[an]

Manual was never meant for everyone. No matter how efficient DCT (Dual clutch Transmission) auto is, it’s still more fun to control your own gear, RPM, etc. The computer can’t read your mind, only you can. DCT might get you the fastest time, but it won’t give you the same thrill of having full control. For daily use however, DCT is a definitely great compromise between an auto and a manual. For a track car, I think it’s still more fun to get a manual.

[an]

Manual was never meant for everyone. No matter how efficient DCT (Dual clutch Transmission) auto is, it’s still more fun to control your own gear, RPM, etc. The computer can’t read your mind, only you can. DCT might get you the fastest time, but it won’t give you the same thrill of having full control. For daily use however, DCT is a definitely great compromise between an auto and a manual. For a track car, I think it’s still more fun to get a manual.

[an]

Manual was never meant for everyone. No matter how efficient DCT (Dual clutch Transmission) auto is, it’s still more fun to control your own gear, RPM, etc. The computer can’t read your mind, only you can. DCT might get you the fastest time, but it won’t give you the same thrill of having full control. For daily use however, DCT is a definitely great compromise between an auto and a manual. For a track car, I think it’s still more fun to get a manual.

[an]

Manual was never meant for everyone. No matter how efficient DCT (Dual clutch Transmission) auto is, it’s still more fun to control your own gear, RPM, etc. The computer can’t read your mind, only you can. DCT might get you the fastest time, but it won’t give you the same thrill of having full control. For daily use however, DCT is a definitely great compromise between an auto and a manual. For a track car, I think it’s still more fun to get a manual.

[an]

Manual was never meant for everyone. No matter how efficient DCT (Dual clutch Transmission) auto is, it’s still more fun to control your own gear, RPM, etc. The computer can’t read your mind, only you can. DCT might get you the fastest time, but it won’t give you the same thrill of having full control. For daily use however, DCT is a definitely great compromise between an auto and a manual. For a track car, I think it’s still more fun to get a manual.

[Coronita]

My next car most likely will have DSG (same thing, dual clutch transmission). I’ve test drove cars with DSG and frankly, for most considerations, there is no way I can shift better than DSG in almost all situations. The drawback is when it comes to track day, I suppose it can be less fun, but I haven’t tracked a car lately. Plus it gives my wife the option to drive the car, who refuses to learn stick.

DCT is completely different SMG transmissions that BMW use to offer. SMG are sequential shifts, and the common complaint of SMG has been those are quite laggy in between shifts. DCT/DSG use two drive shafts, one hollow and one inside the other. Each shaft is responsible for engaging alternating gears, and at any point, one gear is always engaged on both shafts, with one shaft engaged to the engine. Shifting consists of switching from one shaft to the other, and for the next gear on the disengaged shaft to be selected. (Typical sequence from 1st to second: shaft 1 (with 1st engaged) is disengaged from engine, shaft 2 (with 2nd already engaged to shaft) is engaged to engine , and then 3rd is engaged on shaft one. Subsequent downshift into 3rd follows diseanging shaft 2 from engine, enaging shaft 1 (with third preselected), and enabling 4th on the second shaft, etc). Some fuzzy logic computer also monitors engine speed, your driving style, and supposedly is to adapt the transmission accordingly.

This design cuts down shift times down considerably and lag between shifts, shift times can be as low as <10ms. For most situations, people cannot shift quicker than some of these computer controlled DSG/DCT transmissions.

Drawbacks: these transmissions are much less smooth than your typical automatic (at least the first interation of DSGs that I drove). Second, they are expensive transmissions to maintain, should you ever need it serviced. Third, early versions of DSG/DCT could only handle a certain amount of torque. 4th, I hope you trust that german electronics when it comes to keeping a car for 10+years 🙂

DCT (BMW's name for it) really isn't new. VW/Audi licensed DSG transmissions from a company called Borg/Wagner and had an exclusivity on it. Since then, I believe the exclusivity expired, and hence why we're going to be seeing more DSG type trannies in other brands. There was other companies planning to build similar transmissions, Chrysler was going to be one of them (until they recently had contract problems with the supplier..Lawsuit pending).
VAG is now marketing DSG under the "s-tronic or r-tronic" label. Until recently, DSG transmissions were only available on cars with engines traversely mounted from VAG/Audi. IE: they were only available on TT's/A3's/Golfs/Jettas (and hence only available for fronttrak VAG products our Haldex AWD products from VAG. No option for torsen AWD systems). Until, recently, DSG has not been available on longitudinal mounted engines from VAG, and for that matter, means no DSG has been available on Audi's S4's/S6's/RS(which was only offered in stick anyway).

I believe the latest news is next generation of DSG trannies are going to be available on S4/S5's...Assuming you can even get an S5. Most are being sold overseas, where it can fetch more $ than here, especially with the slammed dollar. S5's are completely backlogged in the U.S. at most dealers and marked up so much over $8k, that it's now priced at the level of new M3's- which makes it a completely losing proposition. I'd take the M3, despite it's Bangled messed up E90 design.

S4's are suppose to be available soon, but they haven't announced when or if DSG is absoluately going to be available right away. Dealers are taking deposits though. There is supposedly an TT-S and TT-RS version in development, but it remains to be seen if they are going to make it stateside, due to the week dollar and because VAG has no U.S. factories to make them here.

I believe I read an article about Mitsubishi adopting a DSG type transmission in upcoming Evolutions. Likewise, I read Suburu is planning a dual clutch option for WRX's.

[Coronita]

My next car most likely will have DSG (same thing, dual clutch transmission). I’ve test drove cars with DSG and frankly, for most considerations, there is no way I can shift better than DSG in almost all situations. The drawback is when it comes to track day, I suppose it can be less fun, but I haven’t tracked a car lately. Plus it gives my wife the option to drive the car, who refuses to learn stick.

DCT is completely different SMG transmissions that BMW use to offer. SMG are sequential shifts, and the common complaint of SMG has been those are quite laggy in between shifts. DCT/DSG use two drive shafts, one hollow and one inside the other. Each shaft is responsible for engaging alternating gears, and at any point, one gear is always engaged on both shafts, with one shaft engaged to the engine. Shifting consists of switching from one shaft to the other, and for the next gear on the disengaged shaft to be selected. (Typical sequence from 1st to second: shaft 1 (with 1st engaged) is disengaged from engine, shaft 2 (with 2nd already engaged to shaft) is engaged to engine , and then 3rd is engaged on shaft one. Subsequent downshift into 3rd follows diseanging shaft 2 from engine, enaging shaft 1 (with third preselected), and enabling 4th on the second shaft, etc). Some fuzzy logic computer also monitors engine speed, your driving style, and supposedly is to adapt the transmission accordingly.

This design cuts down shift times down considerably and lag between shifts, shift times can be as low as <10ms. For most situations, people cannot shift quicker than some of these computer controlled DSG/DCT transmissions.

Drawbacks: these transmissions are much less smooth than your typical automatic (at least the first interation of DSGs that I drove). Second, they are expensive transmissions to maintain, should you ever need it serviced. Third, early versions of DSG/DCT could only handle a certain amount of torque. 4th, I hope you trust that german electronics when it comes to keeping a car for 10+years 🙂

DCT (BMW's name for it) really isn't new. VW/Audi licensed DSG transmissions from a company called Borg/Wagner and had an exclusivity on it. Since then, I believe the exclusivity expired, and hence why we're going to be seeing more DSG type trannies in other brands. There was other companies planning to build similar transmissions, Chrysler was going to be one of them (until they recently had contract problems with the supplier..Lawsuit pending).
VAG is now marketing DSG under the "s-tronic or r-tronic" label. Until recently, DSG transmissions were only available on cars with engines traversely mounted from VAG/Audi. IE: they were only available on TT's/A3's/Golfs/Jettas (and hence only available for fronttrak VAG products our Haldex AWD products from VAG. No option for torsen AWD systems). Until, recently, DSG has not been available on longitudinal mounted engines from VAG, and for that matter, means no DSG has been available on Audi's S4's/S6's/RS(which was only offered in stick anyway).

I believe the latest news is next generation of DSG trannies are going to be available on S4/S5's...Assuming you can even get an S5. Most are being sold overseas, where it can fetch more $ than here, especially with the slammed dollar. S5's are completely backlogged in the U.S. at most dealers and marked up so much over $8k, that it's now priced at the level of new M3's- which makes it a completely losing proposition. I'd take the M3, despite it's Bangled messed up E90 design.

S4's are suppose to be available soon, but they haven't announced when or if DSG is absoluately going to be available right away. Dealers are taking deposits though. There is supposedly an TT-S and TT-RS version in development, but it remains to be seen if they are going to make it stateside, due to the week dollar and because VAG has no U.S. factories to make them here.

I believe I read an article about Mitsubishi adopting a DSG type transmission in upcoming Evolutions. Likewise, I read Suburu is planning a dual clutch option for WRX's.

[Coronita]

My next car most likely will have DSG (same thing, dual clutch transmission). I’ve test drove cars with DSG and frankly, for most considerations, there is no way I can shift better than DSG in almost all situations. The drawback is when it comes to track day, I suppose it can be less fun, but I haven’t tracked a car lately. Plus it gives my wife the option to drive the car, who refuses to learn stick.

DCT is completely different SMG transmissions that BMW use to offer. SMG are sequential shifts, and the common complaint of SMG has been those are quite laggy in between shifts. DCT/DSG use two drive shafts, one hollow and one inside the other. Each shaft is responsible for engaging alternating gears, and at any point, one gear is always engaged on both shafts, with one shaft engaged to the engine. Shifting consists of switching from one shaft to the other, and for the next gear on the disengaged shaft to be selected. (Typical sequence from 1st to second: shaft 1 (with 1st engaged) is disengaged from engine, shaft 2 (with 2nd already engaged to shaft) is engaged to engine , and then 3rd is engaged on shaft one. Subsequent downshift into 3rd follows diseanging shaft 2 from engine, enaging shaft 1 (with third preselected), and enabling 4th on the second shaft, etc). Some fuzzy logic computer also monitors engine speed, your driving style, and supposedly is to adapt the transmission accordingly.

This design cuts down shift times down considerably and lag between shifts, shift times can be as low as <10ms. For most situations, people cannot shift quicker than some of these computer controlled DSG/DCT transmissions.

Drawbacks: these transmissions are much less smooth than your typical automatic (at least the first interation of DSGs that I drove). Second, they are expensive transmissions to maintain, should you ever need it serviced. Third, early versions of DSG/DCT could only handle a certain amount of torque. 4th, I hope you trust that german electronics when it comes to keeping a car for 10+years 🙂

DCT (BMW's name for it) really isn't new. VW/Audi licensed DSG transmissions from a company called Borg/Wagner and had an exclusivity on it. Since then, I believe the exclusivity expired, and hence why we're going to be seeing more DSG type trannies in other brands. There was other companies planning to build similar transmissions, Chrysler was going to be one of them (until they recently had contract problems with the supplier..Lawsuit pending).
VAG is now marketing DSG under the "s-tronic or r-tronic" label. Until recently, DSG transmissions were only available on cars with engines traversely mounted from VAG/Audi. IE: they were only available on TT's/A3's/Golfs/Jettas (and hence only available for fronttrak VAG products our Haldex AWD products from VAG. No option for torsen AWD systems). Until, recently, DSG has not been available on longitudinal mounted engines from VAG, and for that matter, means no DSG has been available on Audi's S4's/S6's/RS(which was only offered in stick anyway).

I believe the latest news is next generation of DSG trannies are going to be available on S4/S5's...Assuming you can even get an S5. Most are being sold overseas, where it can fetch more $ than here, especially with the slammed dollar. S5's are completely backlogged in the U.S. at most dealers and marked up so much over $8k, that it's now priced at the level of new M3's- which makes it a completely losing proposition. I'd take the M3, despite it's Bangled messed up E90 design.

S4's are suppose to be available soon, but they haven't announced when or if DSG is absoluately going to be available right away. Dealers are taking deposits though. There is supposedly an TT-S and TT-RS version in development, but it remains to be seen if they are going to make it stateside, due to the week dollar and because VAG has no U.S. factories to make them here.

I believe I read an article about Mitsubishi adopting a DSG type transmission in upcoming Evolutions. Likewise, I read Suburu is planning a dual clutch option for WRX's.

[Coronita]

My next car most likely will have DSG (same thing, dual clutch transmission). I’ve test drove cars with DSG and frankly, for most considerations, there is no way I can shift better than DSG in almost all situations. The drawback is when it comes to track day, I suppose it can be less fun, but I haven’t tracked a car lately. Plus it gives my wife the option to drive the car, who refuses to learn stick.

DCT is completely different SMG transmissions that BMW use to offer. SMG are sequential shifts, and the common complaint of SMG has been those are quite laggy in between shifts. DCT/DSG use two drive shafts, one hollow and one inside the other. Each shaft is responsible for engaging alternating gears, and at any point, one gear is always engaged on both shafts, with one shaft engaged to the engine. Shifting consists of switching from one shaft to the other, and for the next gear on the disengaged shaft to be selected. (Typical sequence from 1st to second: shaft 1 (with 1st engaged) is disengaged from engine, shaft 2 (with 2nd already engaged to shaft) is engaged to engine , and then 3rd is engaged on shaft one. Subsequent downshift into 3rd follows diseanging shaft 2 from engine, enaging shaft 1 (with third preselected), and enabling 4th on the second shaft, etc). Some fuzzy logic computer also monitors engine speed, your driving style, and supposedly is to adapt the transmission accordingly.

This design cuts down shift times down considerably and lag between shifts, shift times can be as low as <10ms. For most situations, people cannot shift quicker than some of these computer controlled DSG/DCT transmissions.

Drawbacks: these transmissions are much less smooth than your typical automatic (at least the first interation of DSGs that I drove). Second, they are expensive transmissions to maintain, should you ever need it serviced. Third, early versions of DSG/DCT could only handle a certain amount of torque. 4th, I hope you trust that german electronics when it comes to keeping a car for 10+years 🙂

DCT (BMW's name for it) really isn't new. VW/Audi licensed DSG transmissions from a company called Borg/Wagner and had an exclusivity on it. Since then, I believe the exclusivity expired, and hence why we're going to be seeing more DSG type trannies in other brands. There was other companies planning to build similar transmissions, Chrysler was going to be one of them (until they recently had contract problems with the supplier..Lawsuit pending).
VAG is now marketing DSG under the "s-tronic or r-tronic" label. Until recently, DSG transmissions were only available on cars with engines traversely mounted from VAG/Audi. IE: they were only available on TT's/A3's/Golfs/Jettas (and hence only available for fronttrak VAG products our Haldex AWD products from VAG. No option for torsen AWD systems). Until, recently, DSG has not been available on longitudinal mounted engines from VAG, and for that matter, means no DSG has been available on Audi's S4's/S6's/RS(which was only offered in stick anyway).

I believe the latest news is next generation of DSG trannies are going to be available on S4/S5's...Assuming you can even get an S5. Most are being sold overseas, where it can fetch more $ than here, especially with the slammed dollar. S5's are completely backlogged in the U.S. at most dealers and marked up so much over $8k, that it's now priced at the level of new M3's- which makes it a completely losing proposition. I'd take the M3, despite it's Bangled messed up E90 design.

S4's are suppose to be available soon, but they haven't announced when or if DSG is absoluately going to be available right away. Dealers are taking deposits though. There is supposedly an TT-S and TT-RS version in development, but it remains to be seen if they are going to make it stateside, due to the week dollar and because VAG has no U.S. factories to make them here.

I believe I read an article about Mitsubishi adopting a DSG type transmission in upcoming Evolutions. Likewise, I read Suburu is planning a dual clutch option for WRX's.

[Coronita]

My next car most likely will have DSG (same thing, dual clutch transmission). I’ve test drove cars with DSG and frankly, for most considerations, there is no way I can shift better than DSG in almost all situations. The drawback is when it comes to track day, I suppose it can be less fun, but I haven’t tracked a car lately. Plus it gives my wife the option to drive the car, who refuses to learn stick.

DCT is completely different SMG transmissions that BMW use to offer. SMG are sequential shifts, and the common complaint of SMG has been those are quite laggy in between shifts. DCT/DSG use two drive shafts, one hollow and one inside the other. Each shaft is responsible for engaging alternating gears, and at any point, one gear is always engaged on both shafts, with one shaft engaged to the engine. Shifting consists of switching from one shaft to the other, and for the next gear on the disengaged shaft to be selected. (Typical sequence from 1st to second: shaft 1 (with 1st engaged) is disengaged from engine, shaft 2 (with 2nd already engaged to shaft) is engaged to engine , and then 3rd is engaged on shaft one. Subsequent downshift into 3rd follows diseanging shaft 2 from engine, enaging shaft 1 (with third preselected), and enabling 4th on the second shaft, etc). Some fuzzy logic computer also monitors engine speed, your driving style, and supposedly is to adapt the transmission accordingly.

This design cuts down shift times down considerably and lag between shifts, shift times can be as low as <10ms. For most situations, people cannot shift quicker than some of these computer controlled DSG/DCT transmissions.

Drawbacks: these transmissions are much less smooth than your typical automatic (at least the first interation of DSGs that I drove). Second, they are expensive transmissions to maintain, should you ever need it serviced. Third, early versions of DSG/DCT could only handle a certain amount of torque. 4th, I hope you trust that german electronics when it comes to keeping a car for 10+years 🙂

DCT (BMW's name for it) really isn't new. VW/Audi licensed DSG transmissions from a company called Borg/Wagner and had an exclusivity on it. Since then, I believe the exclusivity expired, and hence why we're going to be seeing more DSG type trannies in other brands. There was other companies planning to build similar transmissions, Chrysler was going to be one of them (until they recently had contract problems with the supplier..Lawsuit pending).
VAG is now marketing DSG under the "s-tronic or r-tronic" label. Until recently, DSG transmissions were only available on cars with engines traversely mounted from VAG/Audi. IE: they were only available on TT's/A3's/Golfs/Jettas (and hence only available for fronttrak VAG products our Haldex AWD products from VAG. No option for torsen AWD systems). Until, recently, DSG has not been available on longitudinal mounted engines from VAG, and for that matter, means no DSG has been available on Audi's S4's/S6's/RS(which was only offered in stick anyway).

I believe the latest news is next generation of DSG trannies are going to be available on S4/S5's...Assuming you can even get an S5. Most are being sold overseas, where it can fetch more $ than here, especially with the slammed dollar. S5's are completely backlogged in the U.S. at most dealers and marked up so much over $8k, that it's now priced at the level of new M3's- which makes it a completely losing proposition. I'd take the M3, despite it's Bangled messed up E90 design.

S4's are suppose to be available soon, but they haven't announced when or if DSG is absoluately going to be available right away. Dealers are taking deposits though. There is supposedly an TT-S and TT-RS version in development, but it remains to be seen if they are going to make it stateside, due to the week dollar and because VAG has no U.S. factories to make them here.

I believe I read an article about Mitsubishi adopting a DSG type transmission in upcoming Evolutions. Likewise, I read Suburu is planning a dual clutch option for WRX's.

[SmellsFeeshy]

I have an E46 M3 SMG and love the transmission over a traditional manual gearbox. Driving in traffic all I have to do is pop it into auto mode and its as easy as driving an automatic. But its still fun to drive when I want do some “spirited” driving. Overall though the lack of a clutch pedal does reduce the control slightly — there are times when the computer just can’t predict when to slip the clutch and when not to. The most annoying thing is when it decides to downshift exactly when I’m trying to accelerate and theres a 1-sec or so delay while I wait for it to engage the next gear.

Never driven a DSG car but will definitely try one out next time I’m in the market for a new car. I’d really like to drive a Nissan GT-R if I could find one to test drive. Of course I’m supposed to be saving that money to buy a house soon so I probably shouldn’t buy one.. but still, it’s tempting 🙂

[SmellsFeeshy]

I have an E46 M3 SMG and love the transmission over a traditional manual gearbox. Driving in traffic all I have to do is pop it into auto mode and its as easy as driving an automatic. But its still fun to drive when I want do some “spirited” driving. Overall though the lack of a clutch pedal does reduce the control slightly — there are times when the computer just can’t predict when to slip the clutch and when not to. The most annoying thing is when it decides to downshift exactly when I’m trying to accelerate and theres a 1-sec or so delay while I wait for it to engage the next gear.

Never driven a DSG car but will definitely try one out next time I’m in the market for a new car. I’d really like to drive a Nissan GT-R if I could find one to test drive. Of course I’m supposed to be saving that money to buy a house soon so I probably shouldn’t buy one.. but still, it’s tempting 🙂

[SmellsFeeshy]

I have an E46 M3 SMG and love the transmission over a traditional manual gearbox. Driving in traffic all I have to do is pop it into auto mode and its as easy as driving an automatic. But its still fun to drive when I want do some “spirited” driving. Overall though the lack of a clutch pedal does reduce the control slightly — there are times when the computer just can’t predict when to slip the clutch and when not to. The most annoying thing is when it decides to downshift exactly when I’m trying to accelerate and theres a 1-sec or so delay while I wait for it to engage the next gear.

Never driven a DSG car but will definitely try one out next time I’m in the market for a new car. I’d really like to drive a Nissan GT-R if I could find one to test drive. Of course I’m supposed to be saving that money to buy a house soon so I probably shouldn’t buy one.. but still, it’s tempting 🙂

[SmellsFeeshy]

I have an E46 M3 SMG and love the transmission over a traditional manual gearbox. Driving in traffic all I have to do is pop it into auto mode and its as easy as driving an automatic. But its still fun to drive when I want do some “spirited” driving. Overall though the lack of a clutch pedal does reduce the control slightly — there are times when the computer just can’t predict when to slip the clutch and when not to. The most annoying thing is when it decides to downshift exactly when I’m trying to accelerate and theres a 1-sec or so delay while I wait for it to engage the next gear.

Never driven a DSG car but will definitely try one out next time I’m in the market for a new car. I’d really like to drive a Nissan GT-R if I could find one to test drive. Of course I’m supposed to be saving that money to buy a house soon so I probably shouldn’t buy one.. but still, it’s tempting 🙂

[Author]

Posts