OT: Obama is Conservative

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: You wrote: “The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments”.

This is a popular misconception and one that has been furthered by cinema (David Lean’s “Lawrence of Arabia” comes to mind), books and the media.

In point of fact most of the “tremendous economic and intellectual developments” you cite were actually products of the conquered peoples (the Jews, for instance) and not the Arabs/Muslims/Moors themselves. Bernard Lewis and other Arabist authors have made this point as well.

The “religious tolerance” you cite is also something of a sweeping generalization rather than a specific truth. The Spanish Reconquista came about because the Spaniards sought to throw off the repressive government they lived under. The Crusades are another example of what happens after several centuries of Islamic “religious tolerance”.

Whether or not the worldwide Islamic Caliphate that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda envision will be a reality is obviously open to debate. However, it is gaining traction and in areas from Indonesia to Egypt to Turkey to Britain. Wahhabist Islam is not only virulent, but viral. It threatens regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt (in my opinion, at even greater danger of destabilizing than Saudi Arabia), as well as democratic countries like Holland, France, Britain and Italy.

You’re correct that our being nicer isn’t really at issue. Our being smarter certainly is, and gandalf has astutely pointed out that we are barking up the wrong tree with our nation building exercise in Iraq. However, I would point out that Iran’s animosity at present has far less to do with our questionable coup in 1953 and far more to do with regional hegemony. And, in that case, the example of Neville Chamberlain is quite relevant. Perhaps the Iranians aren’t as dangerous as Herr Hitler in the late 1930s, but, with a nuke, even petty dictators can punch far above their weight. [/quote]

Regarding the great works:
I think that the assertion you reference is accurate. All empires lay claim to conquered tech. Recall tea does not grow in Britain. That does not really bear on the conversation.
Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.

Regarding global Wahabism: It started in Saudi Arabia. It is not like an Iphone. People aren’t such sheep that they just get programmed. They adopt it in places where it makes sense.

That pretty much excludes all places without dictators. If you can find one democracy with a wahabist hegemony I will be surprised.

Our mutual animosity with Iran is grounded in history. That was my point. We are not in danger of ever being invaded by them but we have a lot of 2-way bitterness.
If they have now, or if they get, a nuke this will be a different conversation. They have incentive to get one now because they have a hostile neighbor with nukes. I would like to see that situation and animosity reduced.

Again, Neville Chamberlain applies when we start giving things away. I will concede your point the first time we allow Iran to take over Jordan or northern Israel. But that is not what we are doing or talking about doing. We are talking about talking. Which is something i believe in (perhaps you noticed).

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Except it is not widely accepted by historians. On this one, I am going to go and get examples, so I don’t fall prey to making a sweeping generalization of my own.

Regarding global Wahhabism and “programming”: I would cite the findings of MI5/MI6 in England that the majority of the threat they (England) face is of the home grown variety. The cells in England are, in large part, comprised of Britons. Yes, you read that correctly: Britons. Not imports from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, but Britons. Holland, France and even places like Denmark are facing the same threat, although in those three examples the main element of the threat is from foreign emigres. None of these places is a dictatorship.

Regarding Iran and the bomb: They have the clearly stated intent of acquiring one and joining the Nuclear Club and the clearly stated intent of wiping both Israel and the US from the map. This is not simply rhetoric (on either count). The pointless negotiations and empty threats of the Europeans have indeed wasted time and have done absolutely nothing in terms of slowing Iran down. I’m not worried about Iran invading Florida, I’m worried about Iran lighting a nuke off over Tel Aviv. At that point, there is no conversation. As to their incentive to get a nuke because Israel has one (or, more accurately several dozen): Israel has been possessed of a nuclear capability for quite a while now, so I’m hard pressed to imagine Iran just woke up to the idea that since Israel has them, they need them, too.

Neville Chamberlain applies to the concept of appeasement. The Europeans are appeasing the Iranians, much the same way that Great Britain and France appeased Hitler. Perhaps the analogy is inapt, but the underlying concept is the same: They are giving things away and also reinforcing Iran’s belief that the West is weak and will always prefer to speak before taking action. Iran’s continued intransigence while the Europeans bleat on is proof of this.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Except it is not widely accepted by historians. On this one, I am going to go and get examples, so I don’t fall prey to making a sweeping generalization of my own.

Regarding global Wahhabism and “programming”: I would cite the findings of MI5/MI6 in England that the majority of the threat they (England) face is of the home grown variety. The cells in England are, in large part, comprised of Britons. Yes, you read that correctly: Britons. Not imports from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, but Britons. Holland, France and even places like Denmark are facing the same threat, although in those three examples the main element of the threat is from foreign emigres. None of these places is a dictatorship.

Regarding Iran and the bomb: They have the clearly stated intent of acquiring one and joining the Nuclear Club and the clearly stated intent of wiping both Israel and the US from the map. This is not simply rhetoric (on either count). The pointless negotiations and empty threats of the Europeans have indeed wasted time and have done absolutely nothing in terms of slowing Iran down. I’m not worried about Iran invading Florida, I’m worried about Iran lighting a nuke off over Tel Aviv. At that point, there is no conversation. As to their incentive to get a nuke because Israel has one (or, more accurately several dozen): Israel has been possessed of a nuclear capability for quite a while now, so I’m hard pressed to imagine Iran just woke up to the idea that since Israel has them, they need them, too.

Neville Chamberlain applies to the concept of appeasement. The Europeans are appeasing the Iranians, much the same way that Great Britain and France appeased Hitler. Perhaps the analogy is inapt, but the underlying concept is the same: They are giving things away and also reinforcing Iran’s belief that the West is weak and will always prefer to speak before taking action. Iran’s continued intransigence while the Europeans bleat on is proof of this.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Except it is not widely accepted by historians. On this one, I am going to go and get examples, so I don’t fall prey to making a sweeping generalization of my own.

Regarding global Wahhabism and “programming”: I would cite the findings of MI5/MI6 in England that the majority of the threat they (England) face is of the home grown variety. The cells in England are, in large part, comprised of Britons. Yes, you read that correctly: Britons. Not imports from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, but Britons. Holland, France and even places like Denmark are facing the same threat, although in those three examples the main element of the threat is from foreign emigres. None of these places is a dictatorship.

Regarding Iran and the bomb: They have the clearly stated intent of acquiring one and joining the Nuclear Club and the clearly stated intent of wiping both Israel and the US from the map. This is not simply rhetoric (on either count). The pointless negotiations and empty threats of the Europeans have indeed wasted time and have done absolutely nothing in terms of slowing Iran down. I’m not worried about Iran invading Florida, I’m worried about Iran lighting a nuke off over Tel Aviv. At that point, there is no conversation. As to their incentive to get a nuke because Israel has one (or, more accurately several dozen): Israel has been possessed of a nuclear capability for quite a while now, so I’m hard pressed to imagine Iran just woke up to the idea that since Israel has them, they need them, too.

Neville Chamberlain applies to the concept of appeasement. The Europeans are appeasing the Iranians, much the same way that Great Britain and France appeased Hitler. Perhaps the analogy is inapt, but the underlying concept is the same: They are giving things away and also reinforcing Iran’s belief that the West is weak and will always prefer to speak before taking action. Iran’s continued intransigence while the Europeans bleat on is proof of this.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Except it is not widely accepted by historians. On this one, I am going to go and get examples, so I don’t fall prey to making a sweeping generalization of my own.

Regarding global Wahhabism and “programming”: I would cite the findings of MI5/MI6 in England that the majority of the threat they (England) face is of the home grown variety. The cells in England are, in large part, comprised of Britons. Yes, you read that correctly: Britons. Not imports from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, but Britons. Holland, France and even places like Denmark are facing the same threat, although in those three examples the main element of the threat is from foreign emigres. None of these places is a dictatorship.

Regarding Iran and the bomb: They have the clearly stated intent of acquiring one and joining the Nuclear Club and the clearly stated intent of wiping both Israel and the US from the map. This is not simply rhetoric (on either count). The pointless negotiations and empty threats of the Europeans have indeed wasted time and have done absolutely nothing in terms of slowing Iran down. I’m not worried about Iran invading Florida, I’m worried about Iran lighting a nuke off over Tel Aviv. At that point, there is no conversation. As to their incentive to get a nuke because Israel has one (or, more accurately several dozen): Israel has been possessed of a nuclear capability for quite a while now, so I’m hard pressed to imagine Iran just woke up to the idea that since Israel has them, they need them, too.

Neville Chamberlain applies to the concept of appeasement. The Europeans are appeasing the Iranians, much the same way that Great Britain and France appeased Hitler. Perhaps the analogy is inapt, but the underlying concept is the same: They are giving things away and also reinforcing Iran’s belief that the West is weak and will always prefer to speak before taking action. Iran’s continued intransigence while the Europeans bleat on is proof of this.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Except it is not widely accepted by historians. On this one, I am going to go and get examples, so I don’t fall prey to making a sweeping generalization of my own.

Regarding global Wahhabism and “programming”: I would cite the findings of MI5/MI6 in England that the majority of the threat they (England) face is of the home grown variety. The cells in England are, in large part, comprised of Britons. Yes, you read that correctly: Britons. Not imports from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, but Britons. Holland, France and even places like Denmark are facing the same threat, although in those three examples the main element of the threat is from foreign emigres. None of these places is a dictatorship.

Regarding Iran and the bomb: They have the clearly stated intent of acquiring one and joining the Nuclear Club and the clearly stated intent of wiping both Israel and the US from the map. This is not simply rhetoric (on either count). The pointless negotiations and empty threats of the Europeans have indeed wasted time and have done absolutely nothing in terms of slowing Iran down. I’m not worried about Iran invading Florida, I’m worried about Iran lighting a nuke off over Tel Aviv. At that point, there is no conversation. As to their incentive to get a nuke because Israel has one (or, more accurately several dozen): Israel has been possessed of a nuclear capability for quite a while now, so I’m hard pressed to imagine Iran just woke up to the idea that since Israel has them, they need them, too.

Neville Chamberlain applies to the concept of appeasement. The Europeans are appeasing the Iranians, much the same way that Great Britain and France appeased Hitler. Perhaps the analogy is inapt, but the underlying concept is the same: They are giving things away and also reinforcing Iran’s belief that the West is weak and will always prefer to speak before taking action. Iran’s continued intransigence while the Europeans bleat on is proof of this.

[Aecetia]

Maybe the Europeans deserve what they get. It is Darwinian in a way. They are so weakened by their many wars, I think all the warrior blood is gone, leaving gentrified weaklings who do not understand evil until it is too late.

aka girly men

[Aecetia]

Maybe the Europeans deserve what they get. It is Darwinian in a way. They are so weakened by their many wars, I think all the warrior blood is gone, leaving gentrified weaklings who do not understand evil until it is too late.

aka girly men

[Aecetia]

Maybe the Europeans deserve what they get. It is Darwinian in a way. They are so weakened by their many wars, I think all the warrior blood is gone, leaving gentrified weaklings who do not understand evil until it is too late.

aka girly men

[Aecetia]

Maybe the Europeans deserve what they get. It is Darwinian in a way. They are so weakened by their many wars, I think all the warrior blood is gone, leaving gentrified weaklings who do not understand evil until it is too late.

aka girly men

[Aecetia]

Maybe the Europeans deserve what they get. It is Darwinian in a way. They are so weakened by their many wars, I think all the warrior blood is gone, leaving gentrified weaklings who do not understand evil until it is too late.

aka girly men

[surveyor]

[quote=urbanrealtor]My problem is that I don’t have a great fear of Islamic hegemony. Were it an widely emerging popular ideology (which it is not) it would not of major concern. The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments. The only Islamic regimes to be concerned about are the ones that would be of concern regardless of religion. Those are nations with great control of vital resources and no popular sovereignty or even consultative oligarchy. The religious aspect is a way of controlling dissent. With no social groups permitted they frame any social group, movement, or assembly as religious.[/quote]

Um, I figured you thought like this. =sigh= I think you should start reading the koran. The current problems we have with islamofacism is due to the calls to islamic supremacy that is within the koran, and hadiths. This islamic supremacy actually does fit the definition of ideology. All muslims are required, per the koran, to wage war against the unbelievers. Luckily, not all muslims are interested in waging war, but they are required to do so.

(and PLEASE don’t try to use the argument that the bible/christianity is just as violent as the koran/islam. You would be devastatingly wrong.)

a) Gaffes – While the gaffes are not important to you, they are important to other people (including me). If I agreed with his policies, but he made gaffes, I would probably disregard the gaffes. However, combine the gaffes with his lack of knowledge in history, his lack of experience, and it just becomes a little disturbing. Yes, gaffes by themselves are immaterial, but Obama is supposed to be a great orator. If he doesn’t have that, he has little else left to offer other than the fact that he is not Bush. It’s not personal, but it is a lack of substance argument.

b) Kennedy – well let’s look at the event. Kennedy met with Krushchev similar to how Obama wants to meet with “rogue states”. It is generally acknowledged by most that Kennedy looked really bad and essentially got schooled by Krushschev. Even Kennedy said so. Do you want your adversary to find out you are weak? That’s what happened with “no preconditions.” Maybe Krushchev would have done the same thing, whether or not he thought Kennedy was weak, but he would have paused if he thought Kennedy was stronger.

Still, the larger point is that Obama looked at that meeting as a success for the U.S., when it was actually the opposite. Here is evidence that he has a limited understanding of history. You can argue about Kennedy all you want, but this is the point that Bolton makes, and he is correct in it. David Duke can tell you 1+1=2. It doesn’t matter that he’s a racist. Irrelevant. Hitler can tell you 1+1=2. He’s still right. You cannot just disregard someone’s analyses just because you think he is a wacko. See, that’s called “close-minded.” Also, it’s an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute the argument. It is a logical fallacy to think that just because John Bolton is not respected, that he is wrong. I cannot stress this enough. An ad hominem attack is a weak argument.

c)[quote=urbanrealtor] Regarding the cost of negotiation:
First, time is only expensive as an opportunity cost. If we would be using the time for negotiations. If meeting meant some top aids spending a week locked in some hunting lodge talking, I am not clear as to what opportunities that would cost us. We still keep vigilant and keep up pressure. Unless that week is one we would have spent bombing Tehran (which we have shown no signs of doing in 29 years), its not like it really hurts us to get to constructive conversation.[/quote]

You’re not sure what opportunities are lost to us? Well, when you don’t have time, you can’t go to the UN to help with Iran. You can’t. It’ll take months for a “non-binding” resolution. You can’t enact sanctions. They take time to work. You can’t all of a sudden pursue regime change. That takes time. Meanwhile, Israel is screaming that they’re going to be attacked by Iran and begging you to do something. Meanwhile, the Iranians are only a year away from a nuclear weapon. Guess what? When you have been painted into a corner, that is a FAILURE of diplomacy.

Hey, the Europeans have only been negotiating with them for more than FOUR YEARS. Let’s go ahead and order more. Not only does Obama want to have more negotiations, he wants negotiations without “preconditions.” I’ve already established that this is not a smart idea already, and yet this is exactly what Obama wants. If you think they’ll roll over for Obama after a week, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Yes, time is an opportunity cost. The opportunities to deal with Iran without having to go to the military option are now gone because of an adherence to the “diplomacy/negotiation” only policy. When you’ve lost leverage, you’ve lost options. Does that sound “smart” to you?

d)[quote=urbanrealtor]Second, Neville Chamberlain just doesn’t apply here. I mean seriously, he gave away a whole country to Hitler. He even signed it. Thats a lot different from discussing how to build more mutually beneficial relationship.[/quote]

The story of Neville Chamberlain is used as an example of failed diplomacy (although it was heralded as a success at the time). After four years of European negotiations, the Iranians on the verge of nuclear weapons, the promise of a new middle east conflict on the horizon, and few options available to the U.S., I’d say the analogy is apt. Disagree if you wish. I’m just wondering after four years of negotiations, when can you call it an abject failure?

Neville Chamberlain => example of failed diplomacy.
European-Iran negotiations = example of failed diplomacy.

I don’t know, it looks analogous to me.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Their conflict with us is based on the terrible things we did to that country (like taking out their prime minister in 1953). The animosity we have with their regime is primarily based on their rhetoric and the revolution (which had popular support). Unless we want to re-install a dictator there (or exterminate them), we have to try working things out at some point.[/quote]

Hrm, there’s that “blame America first” thought process. You really want to go negotiate with the Iranians with that mindset? So we should let them have nuclear weapons?

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding Italy:
Who really cares who they pray to?
I come from a country (my blood not my country of birth) that makes a point of not caring. That not just because anabaptists settled Manhattan Island or because our first president was a deist but also because there were lots of Jews in early America. My point is that these are essentially political fights. Thats why Tehran has the Mid-east’s larges Jewish community outside of Israel.[/quote]

=shrug= Here’s why it matters: Europe is becoming rapidly Islamic. The next few decades, they will become islamic by demographics. You obviously have a benign view of Islam. I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening.

(next book to read: America Alone, by Mark Steyn).

[quote=urbanrealtor]Actually I agree. We should be able to call him on it. However, my point is that these are cheap shots. You would make a better case by just saying that his policies are weak and then explain why. If you are looking to just do cheap shots, then I submit to you that this may be too intelligent a blog for you (and thats kind of sad). I don’t say this to be insulting. I say this because I would like to actually discuss policy with you. You have something good to say but you keep hiding it behind weak lines and cheap shots. Please step up dude. I’ll wait for you. I really would like to hear your real points. [/quote]

I hate to break it to you dan, but what you call cheap shots I call “weaknesses.”

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.[/quote]

And this is specifically what happens when you cite “trusted and respected” sources. You, sir, could not be more wrong. The idea that Christians and Jews lived well among the muslims is extremely false. I haven’t read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” but the details of how intolerant the muslims were towards “people of the book” (jews and christians) are there. Also a good read is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer.

(by the way, the Crusades were launched after CENTURIES of abuse, jihad, and conquering of christian territory by the muslims).

[surveyor]

[quote=urbanrealtor]My problem is that I don’t have a great fear of Islamic hegemony. Were it an widely emerging popular ideology (which it is not) it would not of major concern. The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments. The only Islamic regimes to be concerned about are the ones that would be of concern regardless of religion. Those are nations with great control of vital resources and no popular sovereignty or even consultative oligarchy. The religious aspect is a way of controlling dissent. With no social groups permitted they frame any social group, movement, or assembly as religious.[/quote]

Um, I figured you thought like this. =sigh= I think you should start reading the koran. The current problems we have with islamofacism is due to the calls to islamic supremacy that is within the koran, and hadiths. This islamic supremacy actually does fit the definition of ideology. All muslims are required, per the koran, to wage war against the unbelievers. Luckily, not all muslims are interested in waging war, but they are required to do so.

(and PLEASE don’t try to use the argument that the bible/christianity is just as violent as the koran/islam. You would be devastatingly wrong.)

a) Gaffes – While the gaffes are not important to you, they are important to other people (including me). If I agreed with his policies, but he made gaffes, I would probably disregard the gaffes. However, combine the gaffes with his lack of knowledge in history, his lack of experience, and it just becomes a little disturbing. Yes, gaffes by themselves are immaterial, but Obama is supposed to be a great orator. If he doesn’t have that, he has little else left to offer other than the fact that he is not Bush. It’s not personal, but it is a lack of substance argument.

b) Kennedy – well let’s look at the event. Kennedy met with Krushchev similar to how Obama wants to meet with “rogue states”. It is generally acknowledged by most that Kennedy looked really bad and essentially got schooled by Krushschev. Even Kennedy said so. Do you want your adversary to find out you are weak? That’s what happened with “no preconditions.” Maybe Krushchev would have done the same thing, whether or not he thought Kennedy was weak, but he would have paused if he thought Kennedy was stronger.

Still, the larger point is that Obama looked at that meeting as a success for the U.S., when it was actually the opposite. Here is evidence that he has a limited understanding of history. You can argue about Kennedy all you want, but this is the point that Bolton makes, and he is correct in it. David Duke can tell you 1+1=2. It doesn’t matter that he’s a racist. Irrelevant. Hitler can tell you 1+1=2. He’s still right. You cannot just disregard someone’s analyses just because you think he is a wacko. See, that’s called “close-minded.” Also, it’s an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute the argument. It is a logical fallacy to think that just because John Bolton is not respected, that he is wrong. I cannot stress this enough. An ad hominem attack is a weak argument.

c)[quote=urbanrealtor] Regarding the cost of negotiation:
First, time is only expensive as an opportunity cost. If we would be using the time for negotiations. If meeting meant some top aids spending a week locked in some hunting lodge talking, I am not clear as to what opportunities that would cost us. We still keep vigilant and keep up pressure. Unless that week is one we would have spent bombing Tehran (which we have shown no signs of doing in 29 years), its not like it really hurts us to get to constructive conversation.[/quote]

You’re not sure what opportunities are lost to us? Well, when you don’t have time, you can’t go to the UN to help with Iran. You can’t. It’ll take months for a “non-binding” resolution. You can’t enact sanctions. They take time to work. You can’t all of a sudden pursue regime change. That takes time. Meanwhile, Israel is screaming that they’re going to be attacked by Iran and begging you to do something. Meanwhile, the Iranians are only a year away from a nuclear weapon. Guess what? When you have been painted into a corner, that is a FAILURE of diplomacy.

Hey, the Europeans have only been negotiating with them for more than FOUR YEARS. Let’s go ahead and order more. Not only does Obama want to have more negotiations, he wants negotiations without “preconditions.” I’ve already established that this is not a smart idea already, and yet this is exactly what Obama wants. If you think they’ll roll over for Obama after a week, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Yes, time is an opportunity cost. The opportunities to deal with Iran without having to go to the military option are now gone because of an adherence to the “diplomacy/negotiation” only policy. When you’ve lost leverage, you’ve lost options. Does that sound “smart” to you?

d)[quote=urbanrealtor]Second, Neville Chamberlain just doesn’t apply here. I mean seriously, he gave away a whole country to Hitler. He even signed it. Thats a lot different from discussing how to build more mutually beneficial relationship.[/quote]

The story of Neville Chamberlain is used as an example of failed diplomacy (although it was heralded as a success at the time). After four years of European negotiations, the Iranians on the verge of nuclear weapons, the promise of a new middle east conflict on the horizon, and few options available to the U.S., I’d say the analogy is apt. Disagree if you wish. I’m just wondering after four years of negotiations, when can you call it an abject failure?

Neville Chamberlain => example of failed diplomacy.
European-Iran negotiations = example of failed diplomacy.

I don’t know, it looks analogous to me.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Their conflict with us is based on the terrible things we did to that country (like taking out their prime minister in 1953). The animosity we have with their regime is primarily based on their rhetoric and the revolution (which had popular support). Unless we want to re-install a dictator there (or exterminate them), we have to try working things out at some point.[/quote]

Hrm, there’s that “blame America first” thought process. You really want to go negotiate with the Iranians with that mindset? So we should let them have nuclear weapons?

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding Italy:
Who really cares who they pray to?
I come from a country (my blood not my country of birth) that makes a point of not caring. That not just because anabaptists settled Manhattan Island or because our first president was a deist but also because there were lots of Jews in early America. My point is that these are essentially political fights. Thats why Tehran has the Mid-east’s larges Jewish community outside of Israel.[/quote]

=shrug= Here’s why it matters: Europe is becoming rapidly Islamic. The next few decades, they will become islamic by demographics. You obviously have a benign view of Islam. I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening.

(next book to read: America Alone, by Mark Steyn).

[quote=urbanrealtor]Actually I agree. We should be able to call him on it. However, my point is that these are cheap shots. You would make a better case by just saying that his policies are weak and then explain why. If you are looking to just do cheap shots, then I submit to you that this may be too intelligent a blog for you (and thats kind of sad). I don’t say this to be insulting. I say this because I would like to actually discuss policy with you. You have something good to say but you keep hiding it behind weak lines and cheap shots. Please step up dude. I’ll wait for you. I really would like to hear your real points. [/quote]

I hate to break it to you dan, but what you call cheap shots I call “weaknesses.”

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.[/quote]

And this is specifically what happens when you cite “trusted and respected” sources. You, sir, could not be more wrong. The idea that Christians and Jews lived well among the muslims is extremely false. I haven’t read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” but the details of how intolerant the muslims were towards “people of the book” (jews and christians) are there. Also a good read is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer.

(by the way, the Crusades were launched after CENTURIES of abuse, jihad, and conquering of christian territory by the muslims).

[surveyor]

[quote=urbanrealtor]My problem is that I don’t have a great fear of Islamic hegemony. Were it an widely emerging popular ideology (which it is not) it would not of major concern. The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments. The only Islamic regimes to be concerned about are the ones that would be of concern regardless of religion. Those are nations with great control of vital resources and no popular sovereignty or even consultative oligarchy. The religious aspect is a way of controlling dissent. With no social groups permitted they frame any social group, movement, or assembly as religious.[/quote]

Um, I figured you thought like this. =sigh= I think you should start reading the koran. The current problems we have with islamofacism is due to the calls to islamic supremacy that is within the koran, and hadiths. This islamic supremacy actually does fit the definition of ideology. All muslims are required, per the koran, to wage war against the unbelievers. Luckily, not all muslims are interested in waging war, but they are required to do so.

(and PLEASE don’t try to use the argument that the bible/christianity is just as violent as the koran/islam. You would be devastatingly wrong.)

a) Gaffes – While the gaffes are not important to you, they are important to other people (including me). If I agreed with his policies, but he made gaffes, I would probably disregard the gaffes. However, combine the gaffes with his lack of knowledge in history, his lack of experience, and it just becomes a little disturbing. Yes, gaffes by themselves are immaterial, but Obama is supposed to be a great orator. If he doesn’t have that, he has little else left to offer other than the fact that he is not Bush. It’s not personal, but it is a lack of substance argument.

b) Kennedy – well let’s look at the event. Kennedy met with Krushchev similar to how Obama wants to meet with “rogue states”. It is generally acknowledged by most that Kennedy looked really bad and essentially got schooled by Krushschev. Even Kennedy said so. Do you want your adversary to find out you are weak? That’s what happened with “no preconditions.” Maybe Krushchev would have done the same thing, whether or not he thought Kennedy was weak, but he would have paused if he thought Kennedy was stronger.

Still, the larger point is that Obama looked at that meeting as a success for the U.S., when it was actually the opposite. Here is evidence that he has a limited understanding of history. You can argue about Kennedy all you want, but this is the point that Bolton makes, and he is correct in it. David Duke can tell you 1+1=2. It doesn’t matter that he’s a racist. Irrelevant. Hitler can tell you 1+1=2. He’s still right. You cannot just disregard someone’s analyses just because you think he is a wacko. See, that’s called “close-minded.” Also, it’s an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute the argument. It is a logical fallacy to think that just because John Bolton is not respected, that he is wrong. I cannot stress this enough. An ad hominem attack is a weak argument.

c)[quote=urbanrealtor] Regarding the cost of negotiation:
First, time is only expensive as an opportunity cost. If we would be using the time for negotiations. If meeting meant some top aids spending a week locked in some hunting lodge talking, I am not clear as to what opportunities that would cost us. We still keep vigilant and keep up pressure. Unless that week is one we would have spent bombing Tehran (which we have shown no signs of doing in 29 years), its not like it really hurts us to get to constructive conversation.[/quote]

You’re not sure what opportunities are lost to us? Well, when you don’t have time, you can’t go to the UN to help with Iran. You can’t. It’ll take months for a “non-binding” resolution. You can’t enact sanctions. They take time to work. You can’t all of a sudden pursue regime change. That takes time. Meanwhile, Israel is screaming that they’re going to be attacked by Iran and begging you to do something. Meanwhile, the Iranians are only a year away from a nuclear weapon. Guess what? When you have been painted into a corner, that is a FAILURE of diplomacy.

Hey, the Europeans have only been negotiating with them for more than FOUR YEARS. Let’s go ahead and order more. Not only does Obama want to have more negotiations, he wants negotiations without “preconditions.” I’ve already established that this is not a smart idea already, and yet this is exactly what Obama wants. If you think they’ll roll over for Obama after a week, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Yes, time is an opportunity cost. The opportunities to deal with Iran without having to go to the military option are now gone because of an adherence to the “diplomacy/negotiation” only policy. When you’ve lost leverage, you’ve lost options. Does that sound “smart” to you?

d)[quote=urbanrealtor]Second, Neville Chamberlain just doesn’t apply here. I mean seriously, he gave away a whole country to Hitler. He even signed it. Thats a lot different from discussing how to build more mutually beneficial relationship.[/quote]

The story of Neville Chamberlain is used as an example of failed diplomacy (although it was heralded as a success at the time). After four years of European negotiations, the Iranians on the verge of nuclear weapons, the promise of a new middle east conflict on the horizon, and few options available to the U.S., I’d say the analogy is apt. Disagree if you wish. I’m just wondering after four years of negotiations, when can you call it an abject failure?

Neville Chamberlain => example of failed diplomacy.
European-Iran negotiations = example of failed diplomacy.

I don’t know, it looks analogous to me.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Their conflict with us is based on the terrible things we did to that country (like taking out their prime minister in 1953). The animosity we have with their regime is primarily based on their rhetoric and the revolution (which had popular support). Unless we want to re-install a dictator there (or exterminate them), we have to try working things out at some point.[/quote]

Hrm, there’s that “blame America first” thought process. You really want to go negotiate with the Iranians with that mindset? So we should let them have nuclear weapons?

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding Italy:
Who really cares who they pray to?
I come from a country (my blood not my country of birth) that makes a point of not caring. That not just because anabaptists settled Manhattan Island or because our first president was a deist but also because there were lots of Jews in early America. My point is that these are essentially political fights. Thats why Tehran has the Mid-east’s larges Jewish community outside of Israel.[/quote]

=shrug= Here’s why it matters: Europe is becoming rapidly Islamic. The next few decades, they will become islamic by demographics. You obviously have a benign view of Islam. I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening.

(next book to read: America Alone, by Mark Steyn).

[quote=urbanrealtor]Actually I agree. We should be able to call him on it. However, my point is that these are cheap shots. You would make a better case by just saying that his policies are weak and then explain why. If you are looking to just do cheap shots, then I submit to you that this may be too intelligent a blog for you (and thats kind of sad). I don’t say this to be insulting. I say this because I would like to actually discuss policy with you. You have something good to say but you keep hiding it behind weak lines and cheap shots. Please step up dude. I’ll wait for you. I really would like to hear your real points. [/quote]

I hate to break it to you dan, but what you call cheap shots I call “weaknesses.”

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.[/quote]

And this is specifically what happens when you cite “trusted and respected” sources. You, sir, could not be more wrong. The idea that Christians and Jews lived well among the muslims is extremely false. I haven’t read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” but the details of how intolerant the muslims were towards “people of the book” (jews and christians) are there. Also a good read is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer.

(by the way, the Crusades were launched after CENTURIES of abuse, jihad, and conquering of christian territory by the muslims).

[surveyor]

[quote=urbanrealtor]My problem is that I don’t have a great fear of Islamic hegemony. Were it an widely emerging popular ideology (which it is not) it would not of major concern. The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments. The only Islamic regimes to be concerned about are the ones that would be of concern regardless of religion. Those are nations with great control of vital resources and no popular sovereignty or even consultative oligarchy. The religious aspect is a way of controlling dissent. With no social groups permitted they frame any social group, movement, or assembly as religious.[/quote]

Um, I figured you thought like this. =sigh= I think you should start reading the koran. The current problems we have with islamofacism is due to the calls to islamic supremacy that is within the koran, and hadiths. This islamic supremacy actually does fit the definition of ideology. All muslims are required, per the koran, to wage war against the unbelievers. Luckily, not all muslims are interested in waging war, but they are required to do so.

(and PLEASE don’t try to use the argument that the bible/christianity is just as violent as the koran/islam. You would be devastatingly wrong.)

a) Gaffes – While the gaffes are not important to you, they are important to other people (including me). If I agreed with his policies, but he made gaffes, I would probably disregard the gaffes. However, combine the gaffes with his lack of knowledge in history, his lack of experience, and it just becomes a little disturbing. Yes, gaffes by themselves are immaterial, but Obama is supposed to be a great orator. If he doesn’t have that, he has little else left to offer other than the fact that he is not Bush. It’s not personal, but it is a lack of substance argument.

b) Kennedy – well let’s look at the event. Kennedy met with Krushchev similar to how Obama wants to meet with “rogue states”. It is generally acknowledged by most that Kennedy looked really bad and essentially got schooled by Krushschev. Even Kennedy said so. Do you want your adversary to find out you are weak? That’s what happened with “no preconditions.” Maybe Krushchev would have done the same thing, whether or not he thought Kennedy was weak, but he would have paused if he thought Kennedy was stronger.

Still, the larger point is that Obama looked at that meeting as a success for the U.S., when it was actually the opposite. Here is evidence that he has a limited understanding of history. You can argue about Kennedy all you want, but this is the point that Bolton makes, and he is correct in it. David Duke can tell you 1+1=2. It doesn’t matter that he’s a racist. Irrelevant. Hitler can tell you 1+1=2. He’s still right. You cannot just disregard someone’s analyses just because you think he is a wacko. See, that’s called “close-minded.” Also, it’s an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute the argument. It is a logical fallacy to think that just because John Bolton is not respected, that he is wrong. I cannot stress this enough. An ad hominem attack is a weak argument.

c)[quote=urbanrealtor] Regarding the cost of negotiation:
First, time is only expensive as an opportunity cost. If we would be using the time for negotiations. If meeting meant some top aids spending a week locked in some hunting lodge talking, I am not clear as to what opportunities that would cost us. We still keep vigilant and keep up pressure. Unless that week is one we would have spent bombing Tehran (which we have shown no signs of doing in 29 years), its not like it really hurts us to get to constructive conversation.[/quote]

You’re not sure what opportunities are lost to us? Well, when you don’t have time, you can’t go to the UN to help with Iran. You can’t. It’ll take months for a “non-binding” resolution. You can’t enact sanctions. They take time to work. You can’t all of a sudden pursue regime change. That takes time. Meanwhile, Israel is screaming that they’re going to be attacked by Iran and begging you to do something. Meanwhile, the Iranians are only a year away from a nuclear weapon. Guess what? When you have been painted into a corner, that is a FAILURE of diplomacy.

Hey, the Europeans have only been negotiating with them for more than FOUR YEARS. Let’s go ahead and order more. Not only does Obama want to have more negotiations, he wants negotiations without “preconditions.” I’ve already established that this is not a smart idea already, and yet this is exactly what Obama wants. If you think they’ll roll over for Obama after a week, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Yes, time is an opportunity cost. The opportunities to deal with Iran without having to go to the military option are now gone because of an adherence to the “diplomacy/negotiation” only policy. When you’ve lost leverage, you’ve lost options. Does that sound “smart” to you?

d)[quote=urbanrealtor]Second, Neville Chamberlain just doesn’t apply here. I mean seriously, he gave away a whole country to Hitler. He even signed it. Thats a lot different from discussing how to build more mutually beneficial relationship.[/quote]

The story of Neville Chamberlain is used as an example of failed diplomacy (although it was heralded as a success at the time). After four years of European negotiations, the Iranians on the verge of nuclear weapons, the promise of a new middle east conflict on the horizon, and few options available to the U.S., I’d say the analogy is apt. Disagree if you wish. I’m just wondering after four years of negotiations, when can you call it an abject failure?

Neville Chamberlain => example of failed diplomacy.
European-Iran negotiations = example of failed diplomacy.

I don’t know, it looks analogous to me.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Their conflict with us is based on the terrible things we did to that country (like taking out their prime minister in 1953). The animosity we have with their regime is primarily based on their rhetoric and the revolution (which had popular support). Unless we want to re-install a dictator there (or exterminate them), we have to try working things out at some point.[/quote]

Hrm, there’s that “blame America first” thought process. You really want to go negotiate with the Iranians with that mindset? So we should let them have nuclear weapons?

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding Italy:
Who really cares who they pray to?
I come from a country (my blood not my country of birth) that makes a point of not caring. That not just because anabaptists settled Manhattan Island or because our first president was a deist but also because there were lots of Jews in early America. My point is that these are essentially political fights. Thats why Tehran has the Mid-east’s larges Jewish community outside of Israel.[/quote]

=shrug= Here’s why it matters: Europe is becoming rapidly Islamic. The next few decades, they will become islamic by demographics. You obviously have a benign view of Islam. I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening.

(next book to read: America Alone, by Mark Steyn).

[quote=urbanrealtor]Actually I agree. We should be able to call him on it. However, my point is that these are cheap shots. You would make a better case by just saying that his policies are weak and then explain why. If you are looking to just do cheap shots, then I submit to you that this may be too intelligent a blog for you (and thats kind of sad). I don’t say this to be insulting. I say this because I would like to actually discuss policy with you. You have something good to say but you keep hiding it behind weak lines and cheap shots. Please step up dude. I’ll wait for you. I really would like to hear your real points. [/quote]

I hate to break it to you dan, but what you call cheap shots I call “weaknesses.”

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.[/quote]

And this is specifically what happens when you cite “trusted and respected” sources. You, sir, could not be more wrong. The idea that Christians and Jews lived well among the muslims is extremely false. I haven’t read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” but the details of how intolerant the muslims were towards “people of the book” (jews and christians) are there. Also a good read is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer.

(by the way, the Crusades were launched after CENTURIES of abuse, jihad, and conquering of christian territory by the muslims).

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