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urbanrealtor.
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September 1, 2011 at 10:33 AM #727296September 1, 2011 at 10:33 AM #727384
Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=pri_dk]Right on cue, Allan. 😉
Summary of your argument:
Since Obama will not solve all the problems in the Middle East (during his first term, no less), he is an ineffective leader.
You seem to get awfully worked up about what you hear the “leftist crowd” saying. Seems to be more your point than what Obama is actually doing.
And are you claiming that the Arab World/Middle East is not “complex?”
[/quote]
Pri: Again you deploy the strawman. That was not my point at all, and, in fact, I NEVER accused Obama of being an ineffective leader when it came to Libya. IN FACT, pri, I noted that he handled Libya quite deftly, but that Libya was a one-off, and should NOT be the basis for a “Doctrine”, which some key voices on the Left, most notably Nicholas Kristof of the NYT, are asserting. See how that’s all of a piece? That was WHAT I said.
And, YES, the Middle East is complex, which was also MY POINT, in that you CANNOT point to Libya as an example of a workable “Doctrine”, because the area is SO FUCKING COMPLEX and a simple minded “solution” like strategic airpower is NOT the answer.
Stop putting words in my mouth and start reading what I’m ACTUALLY SAYING. Words mean things.
September 1, 2011 at 10:33 AM #727983Participant[quote=pri_dk]Right on cue, Allan. 😉
Summary of your argument:
Since Obama will not solve all the problems in the Middle East (during his first term, no less), he is an ineffective leader.
You seem to get awfully worked up about what you hear the “leftist crowd” saying. Seems to be more your point than what Obama is actually doing.
And are you claiming that the Arab World/Middle East is not “complex?”
[/quote]
Pri: Again you deploy the strawman. That was not my point at all, and, in fact, I NEVER accused Obama of being an ineffective leader when it came to Libya. IN FACT, pri, I noted that he handled Libya quite deftly, but that Libya was a one-off, and should NOT be the basis for a “Doctrine”, which some key voices on the Left, most notably Nicholas Kristof of the NYT, are asserting. See how that’s all of a piece? That was WHAT I said.
And, YES, the Middle East is complex, which was also MY POINT, in that you CANNOT point to Libya as an example of a workable “Doctrine”, because the area is SO FUCKING COMPLEX and a simple minded “solution” like strategic airpower is NOT the answer.
Stop putting words in my mouth and start reading what I’m ACTUALLY SAYING. Words mean things.
September 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM #727316Participant[quote=pri_dk]
As for the rest of the Arab trouble spots: The “ground ponders” are already deployed in Syria, Iran, and elsewhere. They’re not nearly as effective as our boys, but their blood is not nearly as dear to me either.[/quote]Pri: And here you make my point for me. Had Obama shown a willingness to take the fight to Iran during the Green Revolution, we’d be looking at some very different circumstances.
The collapse of the Soviet Union is directly attributable to US policies during the Cold War, including moral support, with the strong juxtaposition of American freedoms and exceptionalism with the tyranny and oppression of the Communist system.
Obama had a golden opportunity to drive a blade into the Iranian regime and instead retreated behind anodyne statements and a waffling, uncertain approach. Both of which, by the way, stood in stark contrast to his Cairo speech.
A man who speaks of “hope” and “change”, but supported neither when a nascent rebellion was underway in Iran.
Words mean things. If you don’t support what you say, or do what you say, you lose all credibility. Kind of like discussing all your plans to restore American civil liberties and then following Dubya down the rabbit hole.
You want to discuss that, pri, or will you duck it again, just like Brian?
September 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM #727405Participant[quote=pri_dk]
As for the rest of the Arab trouble spots: The “ground ponders” are already deployed in Syria, Iran, and elsewhere. They’re not nearly as effective as our boys, but their blood is not nearly as dear to me either.[/quote]Pri: And here you make my point for me. Had Obama shown a willingness to take the fight to Iran during the Green Revolution, we’d be looking at some very different circumstances.
The collapse of the Soviet Union is directly attributable to US policies during the Cold War, including moral support, with the strong juxtaposition of American freedoms and exceptionalism with the tyranny and oppression of the Communist system.
Obama had a golden opportunity to drive a blade into the Iranian regime and instead retreated behind anodyne statements and a waffling, uncertain approach. Both of which, by the way, stood in stark contrast to his Cairo speech.
A man who speaks of “hope” and “change”, but supported neither when a nascent rebellion was underway in Iran.
Words mean things. If you don’t support what you say, or do what you say, you lose all credibility. Kind of like discussing all your plans to restore American civil liberties and then following Dubya down the rabbit hole.
You want to discuss that, pri, or will you duck it again, just like Brian?
September 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM #728003Participant[quote=pri_dk]
As for the rest of the Arab trouble spots: The “ground ponders” are already deployed in Syria, Iran, and elsewhere. They’re not nearly as effective as our boys, but their blood is not nearly as dear to me either.[/quote]Pri: And here you make my point for me. Had Obama shown a willingness to take the fight to Iran during the Green Revolution, we’d be looking at some very different circumstances.
The collapse of the Soviet Union is directly attributable to US policies during the Cold War, including moral support, with the strong juxtaposition of American freedoms and exceptionalism with the tyranny and oppression of the Communist system.
Obama had a golden opportunity to drive a blade into the Iranian regime and instead retreated behind anodyne statements and a waffling, uncertain approach. Both of which, by the way, stood in stark contrast to his Cairo speech.
A man who speaks of “hope” and “change”, but supported neither when a nascent rebellion was underway in Iran.
Words mean things. If you don’t support what you say, or do what you say, you lose all credibility. Kind of like discussing all your plans to restore American civil liberties and then following Dubya down the rabbit hole.
You want to discuss that, pri, or will you duck it again, just like Brian?
September 1, 2011 at 11:09 AM #727341Zeitgeist
Participant[quote=Zeitgeist]Obama is the kiss of death to business: “A California solar panel manufacturer which President Obama had made the poster child of his effort to expand the green economy and grow jobs has filed for bankruptcy, the company announced today.”
“Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset. As the highly celebrated first stimulus loan guarantee awarded by the DOE, the $535 million loan for Solyndra was suspect from day one.… It is clear that Solyndra was a dubious investment, but DOE doubled down in March of this year and restructured the loan, possibly further increasing taxpayers’ liability. That is a question we want answered. In this time of record debt such disregard for taxpayer dollars cannot be tolerated.’”
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/solar-firm-fails-despite-fed-support.html#ixzz1Wj52CDTv
September 1, 2011 at 11:09 AM #727429Participant[quote=Zeitgeist]Obama is the kiss of death to business: “A California solar panel manufacturer which President Obama had made the poster child of his effort to expand the green economy and grow jobs has filed for bankruptcy, the company announced today.”
“Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset. As the highly celebrated first stimulus loan guarantee awarded by the DOE, the $535 million loan for Solyndra was suspect from day one.… It is clear that Solyndra was a dubious investment, but DOE doubled down in March of this year and restructured the loan, possibly further increasing taxpayers’ liability. That is a question we want answered. In this time of record debt such disregard for taxpayer dollars cannot be tolerated.’”
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/solar-firm-fails-despite-fed-support.html#ixzz1Wj52CDTv
September 1, 2011 at 11:09 AM #728023Participant[quote=Zeitgeist]Obama is the kiss of death to business: “A California solar panel manufacturer which President Obama had made the poster child of his effort to expand the green economy and grow jobs has filed for bankruptcy, the company announced today.”
“Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset. As the highly celebrated first stimulus loan guarantee awarded by the DOE, the $535 million loan for Solyndra was suspect from day one.… It is clear that Solyndra was a dubious investment, but DOE doubled down in March of this year and restructured the loan, possibly further increasing taxpayers’ liability. That is a question we want answered. In this time of record debt such disregard for taxpayer dollars cannot be tolerated.’”
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/solar-firm-fails-despite-fed-support.html#ixzz1Wj52CDTv
September 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM #727371Anonymous
GuestAllan, you seem to be holding Obama to an absurdly high standard.
The fact that he didn’t overthrow the Iranian regime is a “failure?” Then I suppose we’ve been failing for decades.
Why so much emphasis on peripheral details? His speech in Cario was not a formal declaration of US foreign policy, and the speech never went anywhere near claiming that our goal was regime change in Iran. If anything, the message was “why can’t we all get along?” – nothing more than a gesture. I honestly have no idea where you draw some of your interpretation of the words in the speech:
And since when has Nicholas Kristof (whomever he is) become Obama’s Secretary of State?
If you haven’t noticed, there’s been a lot of other stuff going on in the past two years.
Iran has been rattling the saber for 30+ years. They are contained, and we can hit them hard if they do anything stupid (and they know it.)
Maybe now is just not the time to stir the pot in yet another country?
September 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM #727459GuestAllan, you seem to be holding Obama to an absurdly high standard.
The fact that he didn’t overthrow the Iranian regime is a “failure?” Then I suppose we’ve been failing for decades.
Why so much emphasis on peripheral details? His speech in Cario was not a formal declaration of US foreign policy, and the speech never went anywhere near claiming that our goal was regime change in Iran. If anything, the message was “why can’t we all get along?” – nothing more than a gesture. I honestly have no idea where you draw some of your interpretation of the words in the speech:
And since when has Nicholas Kristof (whomever he is) become Obama’s Secretary of State?
If you haven’t noticed, there’s been a lot of other stuff going on in the past two years.
Iran has been rattling the saber for 30+ years. They are contained, and we can hit them hard if they do anything stupid (and they know it.)
Maybe now is just not the time to stir the pot in yet another country?
September 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM #728029GuestAllan, you seem to be holding Obama to an absurdly high standard.
The fact that he didn’t overthrow the Iranian regime is a “failure?” Then I suppose we’ve been failing for decades.
Why so much emphasis on peripheral details? His speech in Cario was not a formal declaration of US foreign policy, and the speech never went anywhere near claiming that our goal was regime change in Iran. If anything, the message was “why can’t we all get along?” – nothing more than a gesture. I honestly have no idea where you draw some of your interpretation of the words in the speech:
And since when has Nicholas Kristof (whomever he is) become Obama’s Secretary of State?
If you haven’t noticed, there’s been a lot of other stuff going on in the past two years.
Iran has been rattling the saber for 30+ years. They are contained, and we can hit them hard if they do anything stupid (and they know it.)
Maybe now is just not the time to stir the pot in yet another country?
September 1, 2011 at 11:33 AM #727376Guest[quote=Zeitgeist]”Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset […][/quote]
Really? A couple of Republicans from a committee in the Republican-controlled House suspected corruption from the outset (even before they had any evidence…)
Shocker!
September 1, 2011 at 11:33 AM #727464Guest[quote=Zeitgeist]”Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset […][/quote]
Really? A couple of Republicans from a committee in the Republican-controlled House suspected corruption from the outset (even before they had any evidence…)
Shocker!
September 1, 2011 at 11:33 AM #728030Guest[quote=Zeitgeist]”Solyndra has been under investigation this year by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee. The chairs of these committees, Fred Upton (R-MI) and Cliff Stearns (R-FL), released a statement today saying: ‘We smelled a rat from the onset […][/quote]
Really? A couple of Republicans from a committee in the Republican-controlled House suspected corruption from the outset (even before they had any evidence…)
Shocker!
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