middle school logic

[zk]

http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/05/12/chimpanzees-why-boys-and-girls-different-behavior

Here’s an article that talks about the gender differences in chimpanzees, and then has some common sense advice for humans.

Quotes from the article (I added the bold to the part that applies to CA renter, and italics to the stuff that scaredy was warning against):

I frankly think it’s OK that male and female are built differently to be good at different things,” Lonsdorf said. “I think it should be celebrated.” The danger, she added, is that “people will latch on to it and say, ‘See, women should only have babies’ ” or otherwise use it to excuse traditionalist prejudices or to exclude people from certain careers.

The opposite danger, among more progressive parents, may be to pretend that propensities don’t exist. Worse, parents may want to train or punish them out of existence, banning dolls or weapons (or dolls as weapons) from the house. The new research suggests that a better approach is to understand where boys and girls are coming from and then use those propensities, without disparaging them, as a means of helping children achieve whatever their potential happens to be.

“I think one of the great things about humans is our capacity to recognize those differences but also realize that propensity does not determine ultimate capability,” Lonsdorf said. “Yes, we’re built different, but we can all catch up if we want to. It’s a matter of education and will.”

[CA renter]

ZK, these parental behaviors ARE explicit, but it doesn’t mean that everyone will notice them, especially if they think that these beliefs and behaviors are “normal” and socially acceptable.

It’s like “white privilege.” Just because most white people don’t notice it or really think about it, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Most black people (and some other POC) most definitely notice it — and they are not imagining it.

It’s easy to gloss over sexist or racist (or other -ist) behaviors and beliefs when you’re on the winning side of things. And even for those who are not on the winning side, it can be overlooked if they buy into the myth that they, themselves, are inherently inferior in some way.

Why is guiding girls to pink things sexist while guiding boys to blue things not necessarily sexist (though I don’t agree with guiding kids to or from anything based on gender)? Because there is no stigma to liking blue. Why? Because it is the color of power and prestige between the sexes. Nobody will chastise a girl for picking up a blue piece of paper or blue paint, but they will most definitely chastise a boy for using pink. That’s because the things that are deemed “feminine/submissive” are considered inferior. Why is it more stigmatizing for a male to come out as gay than it is for a female to come out as lesbian? While both can have negative consequences, it’s the gay male that people think of when they think of the stereotypical “sinful” and “shameful” nature of homosexuality.

And the fact that you think that it’s rare for a parent, teacher, etc. to rip a pink piece of paper out of a boy’s hand shows that you are not paying attention, which explains why you don’t see the very explicit and obvious sexism and misogyny in our society. This type of behavior happens every day, all day long.

While males and females have different gender roles because of their biological/reproductive roles, these differences are not nearly as dramatic as you seem to think they are. Sexuality and gender roles, like most things in life, lie on a spectrum. One side has a higher concentration of males, while the other has a higher concentration of females, but there is a lot of overlap in the grey area between the two, with some males going way out on the far end of the “female” side of the spectrum, and some females on the extreme side of the “male” end. Every individual is different.

And you keep asking about why *I* think that exposing boys to girls will feminize the boys. It should be more than clear, based on all of my posts, that this is not how I feel at all. This is the assumption and belief that I am fighting against; I am on the opposite side of that argument. I’m calling out the people who do this.

And the reason why feminists have downplayed the differences between the genders is because they know, without a doubt, how these differences are often forced on people by society, and then these differences are exacerbated and amplified by a society that seeks to maintain one group’s position of power over other groups.

Even our economic and political systems — designed and reinforced by men — are set up to devalue the contributions of women and other minorities. What we call “low-skill” work is actually the most dangerous and distasteful work that has traditionally been done by people who were owned and/or controlled by men. The very valuable work that has traditionally been done by women has been accorded little to no prestige, and are some of the lowest-paid professions in our society. It’s not because this work is any less valuable than the work that men have traditionally done — after all, the human race would no longer exist without the women who carry out these tasks — but because our political/economic systems have been set up from the beginning to devalue this work and keep women and other minorities oppressed.

As for this quote:

[quote=zk]You missed my point entirely. My point was that the basis of insults for each gender is not proof of misogyny. And that you apparently need very little evidence to declare “proof” of misogyny.[/quote]

Yes, the fact that the most insulting words/names in our society refer to the feminization/emasculation of men (in the case of men), or consist of disparaging references to a female’s anatomy or sexual behavior (in the case of women…and, sometimes, men) do indeed prove that misogyny is alive and well in our society. The fact that you can’t see this might help explain why you don’t notice sexism/misogyny, even when it’s entirely explicit and in-your-face.

[Coronita]

Well, that went off the deep end….Anyone got any good Yo Mama jokes?

“Yo mama so stupid, she won’t play Candy Crush because she’s afraid for her diabetes..”

“Yo mama so stupid, that when the questionaire asked about her sex, she put M, F, and sometimes Wednesday.”

“Yo mama so stupid, it took her 2 hours to watch 60 minutes”

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]Well, that went off the deep end….Anyone got any good Yo Mama jokes?

“Yo mama so stupid, she won’t play Candy Crush because she’s afraid for her diabetes..”

“Yo mama so stupid, that when the questionaire asked about her sex, she put M, F, and sometimes Wednesday.”

“Yo mama so stupid, it took her 2 hours to watch 60 minutes”[/quote]

That joke is totally sexist against women.

Actually, it’s against everyone. Because just by skimming this thread I learned from our resident genius that men and women are no different.

And shame on the person that ripped that pink paper out of that little boy’s hand.

If that person actually existed, I wouldn’t like them.

[FlyerInHi]

You make some good point CAr. I have to think about some is them.

Relating to real estate, a girly house for a single straight man is a definite no no. A girly old fashioned house means he’s a mama’s boy.

A man is expected to have a messy house or an awesome modem bachelor pad. The same bachelor pad for a woman means power.

Sexist maybe. Misoginistic no.

[scaredyclassic]

My mama is so beautiful, the gods weep when they see her.

[scaredyclassic]

Yomama so fat her butt cheeks are in separate zip codes.

[FlyerInHi]

Come to think of it, Donald Trump says his mama was beautiful a lot. And his houses are pretty girly bling.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Yomama so fat her butt cheeks are in separate zip codes.[/quote]

That is fat shaming.

Why are yo mamma jokes hurtful to boys that they will get into fights. Nobody insults yo daddy.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk]http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/05/12/chimpanzees-why-boys-and-girls-different-behavior

Here’s an article that talks about the gender differences in chimpanzees, and then has some common sense advice for humans.

Quotes from the article (I added the bold to the part that applies to CA renter, and italics to the stuff that scaredy was warning against):

I frankly think it’s OK that male and female are built differently to be good at different things,” Lonsdorf said. “I think it should be celebrated.” The danger, she added, is that “people will latch on to it and say, ‘See, women should only have babies’ ” or otherwise use it to excuse traditionalist prejudices or to exclude people from certain careers.

The opposite danger, among more progressive parents, may be to pretend that propensities don’t exist. Worse, parents may want to train or punish them out of existence, banning dolls or weapons (or dolls as weapons) from the house. The new research suggests that a better approach is to understand where boys and girls are coming from and then use those propensities, without disparaging them, as a means of helping children achieve whatever their potential happens to be.

“I think one of the great things about humans is our capacity to recognize those differences but also realize that propensity does not determine ultimate capability,” Lonsdorf said. “Yes, we’re built different, but we can all catch up if we want to. It’s a matter of education and will.”[/quote]

“Bonobos are unique in that the migratory sex, females, strongly bond with same-sex strangers later in life. In setting up an artificial sisterhood, bonobos can be said to be secondarily bonded. (Kinship bonds are said to be primary.) Although we now know HOW this happens–through the use of sexual contact and grooming–we do not yet know WHY bonobos and chimpanzees differ in this respect. The answer may lie in the different ecological environments of bonobos and chimpanzees–such as the abundance and quality of food in the forest. But it is uncertain if such explanations will suffice.

Bonobo society is, however, not only female-centered but also appears to be female-dominated. Bonobo specialists, while long suspecting such a reality, have been reluctant to make the controversial claim. But in 1992, at the 14th Congress of the International Primatological Society in Strasbourg, investigators of both captive and wild bonobos presented data that left little doubt about the issue.

Amy R. Parish of the University of California at Davis reported on food competition in identical groups (one adult male and two adult females) of chimpanzees and bonobos at the Stuttgart Zoo. Honey was provided in a “termite hill” from which it could be extracted by dipping sticks into a small hole. As soon as honey was made available, the male chimpanzee would make a charging display through the enclosure and claim everything for himself. Only when his appetite was satisfied would he let the females fish for honey.

In the bonobo group, it was the females that approached the honey first. After having engaged in some GG rubbing, they would feed together, taking turns with virtually no competition between them. The male might make as many charging displays as he wanted; the females were not intimidated and ignored the commotion.”

http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html

——————–

Though I would argue that how chimpanzees, or other animals, relate to one another doesn’t necessarily apply to humans. Our ancestral lines diverged millions of years ago, and we have evolved to become very different animals.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]You make some good point CAr. I have to think about some is them.

Relating to real estate, a girly house for a single straight man is a definite no no. A girly old fashioned house means he’s a mama’s boy.

A man is expected to have a messy house or an awesome modem bachelor pad. The same bachelor pad for a woman means power.

Sexist maybe. Misoginistic no.[/quote]

Sexism and misogyny are different, but related. For many people, sexism justifies their misogynistic behaviors and beliefs.

Thank you for the kind words, too, Brian. I don’t expect people to blindly believe what I’m saying. The goal is to get people to open their eyes and minds a bit to see if they notice the same things in their own lives. Once you become aware of it, you begin to notice how pervasive it is.

Back when my husband and I first got together, he thought I was full of it, too. Now, after having three daughters and living with me pointing things out to him, he’s become one of the greatest feminists around. The way girls and women are treated in our society really makes him angry. Once you start to look for it, it’s overwhelming, but these behaviors and beliefs are so much a part of our human existence, most people don’t even notice the depth and breadth of it. It’s more systemic than racism (also note how women obtained the right to vote and own property after black people did), is more global, and has a much longer history, so people excuse it as being “normal” or “natural.”

[Anonymous]

At the San Diego Zoo, I observed that if Loretta was in a sexually attractive state, she would not hesitate to approach the adult male, Vernon, if he had food. Presenting herself to Vernon, she would mate with him and make high- pitched food calls while taking over his entire bundle of branches and leaves. When Loretta had no genital swelling, she would wait until Vernon was ready to share. Primatologist Suehisa Kuroda reports similar exchanges at Wamba: “A young female approached a male, who was eating sugarcane. They copulated in short order, whereupon she took one of the two canes held by him and left.”

Who knew that there were Bonobo prostitutes at the zoo?

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Why are yo mamma jokes hurtful to boys that they will get into fights.[/quote]

My guess is because these boys really value and respect their mothers, particularly in the African-American community. For many African-American boys, the mother (and grandmother, in many cases) is the only one caring for them. I’ve never understood, though, why this respect and admiration doesn’t convey to the mothers of their own children.

[quote=FlyerInHi]Nobody insults yo daddy.[/quote]

Exactly.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=CA renter][quote=FlyerInHi]You make some good point CAr. I have to think about some is them.

Relating to real estate, a girly house for a single straight man is a definite no no. A girly old fashioned house means he’s a mama’s boy.

A man is expected to have a messy house or an awesome modem bachelor pad. The same bachelor pad for a woman means power.

Sexist maybe. Misoginistic no.[/quote]

Sexism and misogyny are different, but related. For many people, sexism justifies their misogynistic behaviors and beliefs.

Thank you for the kind words, too, Brian. I don’t expect people to blindly believe what I’m saying. The goal is to get people to open their eyes and minds a bit to see if they notice the same things in their own lives. Once you become aware of it, you begin to notice how pervasive it is.

Back when my husband and I first got together, he thought I was full of it, too. Now, after having three daughters and living with me pointing things out to him, he’s become one of the greatest feminists around. The way girls and women are treated in our society really makes him angry. Once you start to look for it, it’s overwhelming, but these behaviors and beliefs are so much a part of our human existence, most people don’t even notice the depth and breadth of it. It’s more systemic than racism (also note how women obtained the right to vote and own property after black people did), is more global, and has a much longer history, so people excuse it as being “normal” or “natural.”[/quote]

Dare mr. Car disagree?

I can tell you this. Things go a lot smoother when we agree with Mrs scaredy. As they say, you can be right. Or you can be married. But you can’t be both. I think that advice is generally understood to be directed at males attempting to argue with females.

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]

Dare mr. Car disagree?

I can tell you this. Things go a lot smoother when we agree with Mrs scaredy. As they say, you can be right. Or you can be married. But you can’t be both. I think that advice is generally understood to be directed at males attempting to argue with females.[/quote]

Sure, he disagrees with me about things all the time. But where sexism and misogyny are concerned, he’s the one who will often come to me to discuss situations at work or he’ll bring up a situation that has happened with the kids, etc. He notices it on his own these days.

FWIW, I would never want to be married to someone who agrees with me all day long. I just want someone who is able to back his positions with facts and logic, with a little bit of emotional reasoning to smooth out the rough edges.

[Author]

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