How to Buy w/out a Realtor?

[PCinSD]

[quote=bearishgurl]
captcha, that is the purpose of agents/brokers carrying E & O insurance. It is required on every brokered transaction, on each side.
[/quote]

Every broker should have insurance, but I don’t believe this is a CA DRE requirement. I recently defended a broker in a lawsuit regarding a real estate transaction. Insurance didn’t cover it.

Some companies may refuse to do business with brokers who do not have an E&O policy, but that is a separate matter.

[socrattt]

A very interesting topic and one I had the opportunity to visit recently. I actually had two Redfin clients that were on the fence between buying with Redfin or working with me. Redfin has an interesting business model, but they lack in a couple of major areas. Redfin runs a system that many agents don’t agree with and understandably so. I personally think it’s a great business model, but they are committed to quantity not quality, hence the process that buyers have to go through. You tend to work with 3 or 4 different people to get the deal done which can actually make the deal much more confusing.

At the end of the day as sdr and others have pointed out if you are going directly to the listing agent to negotiate you’ll have to keep in mind the fiduciary responsibility of the agent. It’s completely lawful to conduct business with the buyer and seller, but often times can be a conflict of interest. Since you are paying the commission regardless, finding a competent agent is extremely beneficial for you as the buyer. I ended convincing both buyers that my knowledge and understanding would be much more beneficial and I think now that both escrows are closed they would agree.

The biggest problem nowadays is that everyone wants a deal and places Redfin have created a way to make that happen for buyers and sellers. As this market slows the buyers and sellers will continue to weed out what they think is the middle man. Be wise in your buying decisions and make sure you understand what your getting yourself into when working directly with the listing agent.

[socrattt]

A very interesting topic and one I had the opportunity to visit recently. I actually had two Redfin clients that were on the fence between buying with Redfin or working with me. Redfin has an interesting business model, but they lack in a couple of major areas. Redfin runs a system that many agents don’t agree with and understandably so. I personally think it’s a great business model, but they are committed to quantity not quality, hence the process that buyers have to go through. You tend to work with 3 or 4 different people to get the deal done which can actually make the deal much more confusing.

At the end of the day as sdr and others have pointed out if you are going directly to the listing agent to negotiate you’ll have to keep in mind the fiduciary responsibility of the agent. It’s completely lawful to conduct business with the buyer and seller, but often times can be a conflict of interest. Since you are paying the commission regardless, finding a competent agent is extremely beneficial for you as the buyer. I ended convincing both buyers that my knowledge and understanding would be much more beneficial and I think now that both escrows are closed they would agree.

The biggest problem nowadays is that everyone wants a deal and places Redfin have created a way to make that happen for buyers and sellers. As this market slows the buyers and sellers will continue to weed out what they think is the middle man. Be wise in your buying decisions and make sure you understand what your getting yourself into when working directly with the listing agent.

[socrattt]

A very interesting topic and one I had the opportunity to visit recently. I actually had two Redfin clients that were on the fence between buying with Redfin or working with me. Redfin has an interesting business model, but they lack in a couple of major areas. Redfin runs a system that many agents don’t agree with and understandably so. I personally think it’s a great business model, but they are committed to quantity not quality, hence the process that buyers have to go through. You tend to work with 3 or 4 different people to get the deal done which can actually make the deal much more confusing.

At the end of the day as sdr and others have pointed out if you are going directly to the listing agent to negotiate you’ll have to keep in mind the fiduciary responsibility of the agent. It’s completely lawful to conduct business with the buyer and seller, but often times can be a conflict of interest. Since you are paying the commission regardless, finding a competent agent is extremely beneficial for you as the buyer. I ended convincing both buyers that my knowledge and understanding would be much more beneficial and I think now that both escrows are closed they would agree.

The biggest problem nowadays is that everyone wants a deal and places Redfin have created a way to make that happen for buyers and sellers. As this market slows the buyers and sellers will continue to weed out what they think is the middle man. Be wise in your buying decisions and make sure you understand what your getting yourself into when working directly with the listing agent.

[socrattt]

A very interesting topic and one I had the opportunity to visit recently. I actually had two Redfin clients that were on the fence between buying with Redfin or working with me. Redfin has an interesting business model, but they lack in a couple of major areas. Redfin runs a system that many agents don’t agree with and understandably so. I personally think it’s a great business model, but they are committed to quantity not quality, hence the process that buyers have to go through. You tend to work with 3 or 4 different people to get the deal done which can actually make the deal much more confusing.

At the end of the day as sdr and others have pointed out if you are going directly to the listing agent to negotiate you’ll have to keep in mind the fiduciary responsibility of the agent. It’s completely lawful to conduct business with the buyer and seller, but often times can be a conflict of interest. Since you are paying the commission regardless, finding a competent agent is extremely beneficial for you as the buyer. I ended convincing both buyers that my knowledge and understanding would be much more beneficial and I think now that both escrows are closed they would agree.

The biggest problem nowadays is that everyone wants a deal and places Redfin have created a way to make that happen for buyers and sellers. As this market slows the buyers and sellers will continue to weed out what they think is the middle man. Be wise in your buying decisions and make sure you understand what your getting yourself into when working directly with the listing agent.

[socrattt]

A very interesting topic and one I had the opportunity to visit recently. I actually had two Redfin clients that were on the fence between buying with Redfin or working with me. Redfin has an interesting business model, but they lack in a couple of major areas. Redfin runs a system that many agents don’t agree with and understandably so. I personally think it’s a great business model, but they are committed to quantity not quality, hence the process that buyers have to go through. You tend to work with 3 or 4 different people to get the deal done which can actually make the deal much more confusing.

At the end of the day as sdr and others have pointed out if you are going directly to the listing agent to negotiate you’ll have to keep in mind the fiduciary responsibility of the agent. It’s completely lawful to conduct business with the buyer and seller, but often times can be a conflict of interest. Since you are paying the commission regardless, finding a competent agent is extremely beneficial for you as the buyer. I ended convincing both buyers that my knowledge and understanding would be much more beneficial and I think now that both escrows are closed they would agree.

The biggest problem nowadays is that everyone wants a deal and places Redfin have created a way to make that happen for buyers and sellers. As this market slows the buyers and sellers will continue to weed out what they think is the middle man. Be wise in your buying decisions and make sure you understand what your getting yourself into when working directly with the listing agent.

[njtosd]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are real estate attorneys who can advise unrepresented buyers (in the event someone sees an advantage in not having an agent). Although their advice is not free, in general they’re going to cost less than an agent’s commission. More importantly they get paid whether the sale goes through or not, so they are more likely to be straight with any bad news about a property. My husband and I used one when we bought our first home in Univ. City (we actually had an agent but the relo package included $1000 in Attys fees). He was very useful (gave us general stats on the rate of slab problems with homes backing up to canyons, litigation involving houses on various streets, etc.). Just a thought.

[njtosd]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are real estate attorneys who can advise unrepresented buyers (in the event someone sees an advantage in not having an agent). Although their advice is not free, in general they’re going to cost less than an agent’s commission. More importantly they get paid whether the sale goes through or not, so they are more likely to be straight with any bad news about a property. My husband and I used one when we bought our first home in Univ. City (we actually had an agent but the relo package included $1000 in Attys fees). He was very useful (gave us general stats on the rate of slab problems with homes backing up to canyons, litigation involving houses on various streets, etc.). Just a thought.

[njtosd]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are real estate attorneys who can advise unrepresented buyers (in the event someone sees an advantage in not having an agent). Although their advice is not free, in general they’re going to cost less than an agent’s commission. More importantly they get paid whether the sale goes through or not, so they are more likely to be straight with any bad news about a property. My husband and I used one when we bought our first home in Univ. City (we actually had an agent but the relo package included $1000 in Attys fees). He was very useful (gave us general stats on the rate of slab problems with homes backing up to canyons, litigation involving houses on various streets, etc.). Just a thought.

[njtosd]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are real estate attorneys who can advise unrepresented buyers (in the event someone sees an advantage in not having an agent). Although their advice is not free, in general they’re going to cost less than an agent’s commission. More importantly they get paid whether the sale goes through or not, so they are more likely to be straight with any bad news about a property. My husband and I used one when we bought our first home in Univ. City (we actually had an agent but the relo package included $1000 in Attys fees). He was very useful (gave us general stats on the rate of slab problems with homes backing up to canyons, litigation involving houses on various streets, etc.). Just a thought.

[njtosd]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are real estate attorneys who can advise unrepresented buyers (in the event someone sees an advantage in not having an agent). Although their advice is not free, in general they’re going to cost less than an agent’s commission. More importantly they get paid whether the sale goes through or not, so they are more likely to be straight with any bad news about a property. My husband and I used one when we bought our first home in Univ. City (we actually had an agent but the relo package included $1000 in Attys fees). He was very useful (gave us general stats on the rate of slab problems with homes backing up to canyons, litigation involving houses on various streets, etc.). Just a thought.

[all]

[quote=sdrealtor]

Captcha,
I find it interesting that both agents were obstacles and would love to hear why. I also wonder if you are focussing on a small detail that pissed you off and actually had a pretty good trouble free experience. I see this all the time where agents get blamed for minor issues the buyer isnt happy with and completely overlook the 90%+ of the transaction that went well.
[/quote]

There was no transaction to begin with, so this does not apply. If a buyer has an agent the buyer robs the listing agent of the opportunity to earn more and in today’s market listing agents for competitively priced properties know that a double-dip opportunity will present itself quickly.

I made several direct offers (i.e. offers where the listing agent doubled as my agent) and several through a couple of buyers agents. The response to the offers made through my agent were “that is too low”, “we already have gazillion higher offers”, “we are taking backup offers only”, etc… listing agents would never call back when the house falls out of escrow or the asking price is lowered. ‘My’ agents were generally unenthusiastic and getting them to submit an offer for me was pain. I saw houses sold for less than what I offered. Or for less than what I was ready to offer as my ‘best and final’ (and I would make that amount known to my agent).

After about a year (two agents, 6 months contract with both) I changed the game plan. I would call the listing agent as soon as the listing pops up on sdlookup, tell them I have no agent and ask them if they can write an offer for me.

The listing agents were much more enthusiastic when contacted directly. Their mood would get even better if I’d tell them that I have 20%+ down, good credit, but no recent pre-approval. Each had a really good and reliable mortgage broker who can take care of that little detail without needing anything from me. They would give me the code to get in. I did that five or six times and not one refused to deal with me.

The change was dramatic. Instead of dealing with two indolent agents I got to deal with one very agile agent.

I noticed a pattern, they would work with me on the day one, but then lose interest after few hours. I assume they got another ‘agentless’ buyer willing to pay more. Some would call back to tell me that. They call when escrow falls through. One guy from Temecula called when he got another property in San Diego.

Once I got my offer accepted everything went smooth. I used the Internet to find home inspector, loan, etc… when I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me it will be ok I posted a question here and you told me it will be ok.

[quote=sdrealtor]
Also re-read BG’s post and understand what she wrote is the preface, not even the first chapter of a very long book of what can and often does go wrong.
[/quote]

I did. Again, she speaks in general terms and says nothing concrete. The transaction involves too many people and buyer’s agent is a position ripe for termination.

The comps are equally available to you and me.
Home inspector will tell me if there is a major issue with the house.
My lender will not underwrite the loan if the paperwork is not in order or if the house does not appraise.
The insurance won’t insure if there is a problem with the house.
I am supposed to do my own research, verify everything, etc (buyer beware, no?)
If I need additional help I can get an attorney to verify the paperwork for few billable hours.

So where is the concrete added value worth 3% of the transaction?
It made sense 15 years ago with dramatically uneven distribution of information. But today it is just an artifact of the past.

[quote=sdrealtor]
You do have a remedy against an ignorant or malicious agent and just have to be willing to fight the battle for that remedy. The thread on recent on RE Ethics is a perfect example. In CA they would have a slam dunk winning case.
[/quote]

There were a few threads where people who felt they have been screwed complained about it. The consensus was that it’s not worth fighting over. Just look at the famous Bressi Ranch agent who’s now an elected official. An agent has to be very dumb and very greedy to get himself in a position where it makes sense for you to sue if you are not a lawyer.

[quote=sdrealtor]
The bottomline is lots of folks can get through a transaction without proper representation and do great. The problem is enough get screwed and getting screwed can ruin your life. I couldnt put my finger on the odds but the bottom line is what your risk tolerance is.[/quote]

There is no guarantee that you won’t be screwed if you do use an agent. Plenty of stories like that.

[all]

[quote=sdrealtor]

Captcha,
I find it interesting that both agents were obstacles and would love to hear why. I also wonder if you are focussing on a small detail that pissed you off and actually had a pretty good trouble free experience. I see this all the time where agents get blamed for minor issues the buyer isnt happy with and completely overlook the 90%+ of the transaction that went well.
[/quote]

There was no transaction to begin with, so this does not apply. If a buyer has an agent the buyer robs the listing agent of the opportunity to earn more and in today’s market listing agents for competitively priced properties know that a double-dip opportunity will present itself quickly.

I made several direct offers (i.e. offers where the listing agent doubled as my agent) and several through a couple of buyers agents. The response to the offers made through my agent were “that is too low”, “we already have gazillion higher offers”, “we are taking backup offers only”, etc… listing agents would never call back when the house falls out of escrow or the asking price is lowered. ‘My’ agents were generally unenthusiastic and getting them to submit an offer for me was pain. I saw houses sold for less than what I offered. Or for less than what I was ready to offer as my ‘best and final’ (and I would make that amount known to my agent).

After about a year (two agents, 6 months contract with both) I changed the game plan. I would call the listing agent as soon as the listing pops up on sdlookup, tell them I have no agent and ask them if they can write an offer for me.

The listing agents were much more enthusiastic when contacted directly. Their mood would get even better if I’d tell them that I have 20%+ down, good credit, but no recent pre-approval. Each had a really good and reliable mortgage broker who can take care of that little detail without needing anything from me. They would give me the code to get in. I did that five or six times and not one refused to deal with me.

The change was dramatic. Instead of dealing with two indolent agents I got to deal with one very agile agent.

I noticed a pattern, they would work with me on the day one, but then lose interest after few hours. I assume they got another ‘agentless’ buyer willing to pay more. Some would call back to tell me that. They call when escrow falls through. One guy from Temecula called when he got another property in San Diego.

Once I got my offer accepted everything went smooth. I used the Internet to find home inspector, loan, etc… when I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me it will be ok I posted a question here and you told me it will be ok.

[quote=sdrealtor]
Also re-read BG’s post and understand what she wrote is the preface, not even the first chapter of a very long book of what can and often does go wrong.
[/quote]

I did. Again, she speaks in general terms and says nothing concrete. The transaction involves too many people and buyer’s agent is a position ripe for termination.

The comps are equally available to you and me.
Home inspector will tell me if there is a major issue with the house.
My lender will not underwrite the loan if the paperwork is not in order or if the house does not appraise.
The insurance won’t insure if there is a problem with the house.
I am supposed to do my own research, verify everything, etc (buyer beware, no?)
If I need additional help I can get an attorney to verify the paperwork for few billable hours.

So where is the concrete added value worth 3% of the transaction?
It made sense 15 years ago with dramatically uneven distribution of information. But today it is just an artifact of the past.

[quote=sdrealtor]
You do have a remedy against an ignorant or malicious agent and just have to be willing to fight the battle for that remedy. The thread on recent on RE Ethics is a perfect example. In CA they would have a slam dunk winning case.
[/quote]

There were a few threads where people who felt they have been screwed complained about it. The consensus was that it’s not worth fighting over. Just look at the famous Bressi Ranch agent who’s now an elected official. An agent has to be very dumb and very greedy to get himself in a position where it makes sense for you to sue if you are not a lawyer.

[quote=sdrealtor]
The bottomline is lots of folks can get through a transaction without proper representation and do great. The problem is enough get screwed and getting screwed can ruin your life. I couldnt put my finger on the odds but the bottom line is what your risk tolerance is.[/quote]

There is no guarantee that you won’t be screwed if you do use an agent. Plenty of stories like that.

[all]

[quote=sdrealtor]

Captcha,
I find it interesting that both agents were obstacles and would love to hear why. I also wonder if you are focussing on a small detail that pissed you off and actually had a pretty good trouble free experience. I see this all the time where agents get blamed for minor issues the buyer isnt happy with and completely overlook the 90%+ of the transaction that went well.
[/quote]

There was no transaction to begin with, so this does not apply. If a buyer has an agent the buyer robs the listing agent of the opportunity to earn more and in today’s market listing agents for competitively priced properties know that a double-dip opportunity will present itself quickly.

I made several direct offers (i.e. offers where the listing agent doubled as my agent) and several through a couple of buyers agents. The response to the offers made through my agent were “that is too low”, “we already have gazillion higher offers”, “we are taking backup offers only”, etc… listing agents would never call back when the house falls out of escrow or the asking price is lowered. ‘My’ agents were generally unenthusiastic and getting them to submit an offer for me was pain. I saw houses sold for less than what I offered. Or for less than what I was ready to offer as my ‘best and final’ (and I would make that amount known to my agent).

After about a year (two agents, 6 months contract with both) I changed the game plan. I would call the listing agent as soon as the listing pops up on sdlookup, tell them I have no agent and ask them if they can write an offer for me.

The listing agents were much more enthusiastic when contacted directly. Their mood would get even better if I’d tell them that I have 20%+ down, good credit, but no recent pre-approval. Each had a really good and reliable mortgage broker who can take care of that little detail without needing anything from me. They would give me the code to get in. I did that five or six times and not one refused to deal with me.

The change was dramatic. Instead of dealing with two indolent agents I got to deal with one very agile agent.

I noticed a pattern, they would work with me on the day one, but then lose interest after few hours. I assume they got another ‘agentless’ buyer willing to pay more. Some would call back to tell me that. They call when escrow falls through. One guy from Temecula called when he got another property in San Diego.

Once I got my offer accepted everything went smooth. I used the Internet to find home inspector, loan, etc… when I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me it will be ok I posted a question here and you told me it will be ok.

[quote=sdrealtor]
Also re-read BG’s post and understand what she wrote is the preface, not even the first chapter of a very long book of what can and often does go wrong.
[/quote]

I did. Again, she speaks in general terms and says nothing concrete. The transaction involves too many people and buyer’s agent is a position ripe for termination.

The comps are equally available to you and me.
Home inspector will tell me if there is a major issue with the house.
My lender will not underwrite the loan if the paperwork is not in order or if the house does not appraise.
The insurance won’t insure if there is a problem with the house.
I am supposed to do my own research, verify everything, etc (buyer beware, no?)
If I need additional help I can get an attorney to verify the paperwork for few billable hours.

So where is the concrete added value worth 3% of the transaction?
It made sense 15 years ago with dramatically uneven distribution of information. But today it is just an artifact of the past.

[quote=sdrealtor]
You do have a remedy against an ignorant or malicious agent and just have to be willing to fight the battle for that remedy. The thread on recent on RE Ethics is a perfect example. In CA they would have a slam dunk winning case.
[/quote]

There were a few threads where people who felt they have been screwed complained about it. The consensus was that it’s not worth fighting over. Just look at the famous Bressi Ranch agent who’s now an elected official. An agent has to be very dumb and very greedy to get himself in a position where it makes sense for you to sue if you are not a lawyer.

[quote=sdrealtor]
The bottomline is lots of folks can get through a transaction without proper representation and do great. The problem is enough get screwed and getting screwed can ruin your life. I couldnt put my finger on the odds but the bottom line is what your risk tolerance is.[/quote]

There is no guarantee that you won’t be screwed if you do use an agent. Plenty of stories like that.

[all]

[quote=sdrealtor]

Captcha,
I find it interesting that both agents were obstacles and would love to hear why. I also wonder if you are focussing on a small detail that pissed you off and actually had a pretty good trouble free experience. I see this all the time where agents get blamed for minor issues the buyer isnt happy with and completely overlook the 90%+ of the transaction that went well.
[/quote]

There was no transaction to begin with, so this does not apply. If a buyer has an agent the buyer robs the listing agent of the opportunity to earn more and in today’s market listing agents for competitively priced properties know that a double-dip opportunity will present itself quickly.

I made several direct offers (i.e. offers where the listing agent doubled as my agent) and several through a couple of buyers agents. The response to the offers made through my agent were “that is too low”, “we already have gazillion higher offers”, “we are taking backup offers only”, etc… listing agents would never call back when the house falls out of escrow or the asking price is lowered. ‘My’ agents were generally unenthusiastic and getting them to submit an offer for me was pain. I saw houses sold for less than what I offered. Or for less than what I was ready to offer as my ‘best and final’ (and I would make that amount known to my agent).

After about a year (two agents, 6 months contract with both) I changed the game plan. I would call the listing agent as soon as the listing pops up on sdlookup, tell them I have no agent and ask them if they can write an offer for me.

The listing agents were much more enthusiastic when contacted directly. Their mood would get even better if I’d tell them that I have 20%+ down, good credit, but no recent pre-approval. Each had a really good and reliable mortgage broker who can take care of that little detail without needing anything from me. They would give me the code to get in. I did that five or six times and not one refused to deal with me.

The change was dramatic. Instead of dealing with two indolent agents I got to deal with one very agile agent.

I noticed a pattern, they would work with me on the day one, but then lose interest after few hours. I assume they got another ‘agentless’ buyer willing to pay more. Some would call back to tell me that. They call when escrow falls through. One guy from Temecula called when he got another property in San Diego.

Once I got my offer accepted everything went smooth. I used the Internet to find home inspector, loan, etc… when I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me it will be ok I posted a question here and you told me it will be ok.

[quote=sdrealtor]
Also re-read BG’s post and understand what she wrote is the preface, not even the first chapter of a very long book of what can and often does go wrong.
[/quote]

I did. Again, she speaks in general terms and says nothing concrete. The transaction involves too many people and buyer’s agent is a position ripe for termination.

The comps are equally available to you and me.
Home inspector will tell me if there is a major issue with the house.
My lender will not underwrite the loan if the paperwork is not in order or if the house does not appraise.
The insurance won’t insure if there is a problem with the house.
I am supposed to do my own research, verify everything, etc (buyer beware, no?)
If I need additional help I can get an attorney to verify the paperwork for few billable hours.

So where is the concrete added value worth 3% of the transaction?
It made sense 15 years ago with dramatically uneven distribution of information. But today it is just an artifact of the past.

[quote=sdrealtor]
You do have a remedy against an ignorant or malicious agent and just have to be willing to fight the battle for that remedy. The thread on recent on RE Ethics is a perfect example. In CA they would have a slam dunk winning case.
[/quote]

There were a few threads where people who felt they have been screwed complained about it. The consensus was that it’s not worth fighting over. Just look at the famous Bressi Ranch agent who’s now an elected official. An agent has to be very dumb and very greedy to get himself in a position where it makes sense for you to sue if you are not a lawyer.

[quote=sdrealtor]
The bottomline is lots of folks can get through a transaction without proper representation and do great. The problem is enough get screwed and getting screwed can ruin your life. I couldnt put my finger on the odds but the bottom line is what your risk tolerance is.[/quote]

There is no guarantee that you won’t be screwed if you do use an agent. Plenty of stories like that.

[Author]

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