House crams healthcare bill down the countries throat.

[ltokuda]

[quote=mike92104]I’d like to point out how stupid the “if we just didn’t spend money on the war, we could afford health care” argument is. Wars are temporary and a excellent example of the kind of thing that should go on the “credit card” since they can not be budgeted. The health care reform act is a LONG term expense that many people agree will cost the country much more than congress is saying. I can see the memo now. “Dear world, please do not attack us. We have decided to spend our money on health care instead of wars. Sincerely, USA”[/quote]

I’d like to point out how stupid your analysis is. Wars are not temporary expenses. We still have about 100,000 troops in Japan and Europe. We’re still paying for a war we fought over 50 years ago. And when soldiers come home, you still have to pay their medical expenses. Wars are definitely a long term expense that will cost the country much more than congress was saying. “Dear world, please do not attack us. But even if you don’t attack us, we might decide to blow a trillion dollars on bombing you anyway. But don’t worry. This is the kind of trillion dollars that is okay to put on a credit card; not the bad kind.”

[SK in CV]

[quote=mike92104]
Please tell me how this will not increase taxes, and is not a “socialized” system.[/quote]

I didn’t say it won’t increase taxes, but it won’t be paid for, as you objected to, by everyone with higher taxes. The house version increases taxes on only the very highest income brackes and the senate version has an even narrower population it will effect tax-wise.

It is not a socialized system because it isn’t a socialized system. In a socialized system, as they have in the UK (not in Canada) and as we have here with the VA, insureds pay zero premiums and nothing for care. Doctors are employed by the system, not independently and reimbursed for services. In the proposed system, every one would pay premiums (some would get aid in paying those premiums) and all medical services would be provided independently of the insurance system, exactly as it is now. Doctors won’t work for the insurance provider, hospitals and other allied medical providers will not be owned by insurance companies.

I have a lot of problems with the house bill, but it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the Senate will make some of those badly needed corrections. As I said, I’m glad you support reform. You’re likely to get what you want.

[SK in CV]

[quote=mike92104]
Please tell me how this will not increase taxes, and is not a “socialized” system.[/quote]

I didn’t say it won’t increase taxes, but it won’t be paid for, as you objected to, by everyone with higher taxes. The house version increases taxes on only the very highest income brackes and the senate version has an even narrower population it will effect tax-wise.

It is not a socialized system because it isn’t a socialized system. In a socialized system, as they have in the UK (not in Canada) and as we have here with the VA, insureds pay zero premiums and nothing for care. Doctors are employed by the system, not independently and reimbursed for services. In the proposed system, every one would pay premiums (some would get aid in paying those premiums) and all medical services would be provided independently of the insurance system, exactly as it is now. Doctors won’t work for the insurance provider, hospitals and other allied medical providers will not be owned by insurance companies.

I have a lot of problems with the house bill, but it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the Senate will make some of those badly needed corrections. As I said, I’m glad you support reform. You’re likely to get what you want.

[SK in CV]

[quote=mike92104]
Please tell me how this will not increase taxes, and is not a “socialized” system.[/quote]

I didn’t say it won’t increase taxes, but it won’t be paid for, as you objected to, by everyone with higher taxes. The house version increases taxes on only the very highest income brackes and the senate version has an even narrower population it will effect tax-wise.

It is not a socialized system because it isn’t a socialized system. In a socialized system, as they have in the UK (not in Canada) and as we have here with the VA, insureds pay zero premiums and nothing for care. Doctors are employed by the system, not independently and reimbursed for services. In the proposed system, every one would pay premiums (some would get aid in paying those premiums) and all medical services would be provided independently of the insurance system, exactly as it is now. Doctors won’t work for the insurance provider, hospitals and other allied medical providers will not be owned by insurance companies.

I have a lot of problems with the house bill, but it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the Senate will make some of those badly needed corrections. As I said, I’m glad you support reform. You’re likely to get what you want.

[SK in CV]

[quote=mike92104]
Please tell me how this will not increase taxes, and is not a “socialized” system.[/quote]

I didn’t say it won’t increase taxes, but it won’t be paid for, as you objected to, by everyone with higher taxes. The house version increases taxes on only the very highest income brackes and the senate version has an even narrower population it will effect tax-wise.

It is not a socialized system because it isn’t a socialized system. In a socialized system, as they have in the UK (not in Canada) and as we have here with the VA, insureds pay zero premiums and nothing for care. Doctors are employed by the system, not independently and reimbursed for services. In the proposed system, every one would pay premiums (some would get aid in paying those premiums) and all medical services would be provided independently of the insurance system, exactly as it is now. Doctors won’t work for the insurance provider, hospitals and other allied medical providers will not be owned by insurance companies.

I have a lot of problems with the house bill, but it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the Senate will make some of those badly needed corrections. As I said, I’m glad you support reform. You’re likely to get what you want.

[SK in CV]

[quote=mike92104]
Please tell me how this will not increase taxes, and is not a “socialized” system.[/quote]

I didn’t say it won’t increase taxes, but it won’t be paid for, as you objected to, by everyone with higher taxes. The house version increases taxes on only the very highest income brackes and the senate version has an even narrower population it will effect tax-wise.

It is not a socialized system because it isn’t a socialized system. In a socialized system, as they have in the UK (not in Canada) and as we have here with the VA, insureds pay zero premiums and nothing for care. Doctors are employed by the system, not independently and reimbursed for services. In the proposed system, every one would pay premiums (some would get aid in paying those premiums) and all medical services would be provided independently of the insurance system, exactly as it is now. Doctors won’t work for the insurance provider, hospitals and other allied medical providers will not be owned by insurance companies.

I have a lot of problems with the house bill, but it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the Senate will make some of those badly needed corrections. As I said, I’m glad you support reform. You’re likely to get what you want.

[ltokuda]

[quote=sd_matt]
Last time I checked roads were built with DMV fees and gasoline taxes. If I am wrong then I’m wrong. But that is the way it should be…not an argument to justify more control by a very incompetent government.

Let people decide for themselves to be healthy or unhealthy.

Whoever said your indoctrinated is right. You refuse to say whether or not you think those in Congress are competent.

And if you do acknowledge that they are incompetent then you are outright insane since you want them to handle your health care.[/quote]

I believe the interstate highway system was built by the U.S. government. The idea is that interstate highways benefit the country as a whole and make it stronger. But if you left it up to each state or county to build their portion of the highway, no one would want to pay for it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that congress will run a public option with supreme competence. But remember that the goal of the public option is to pay for your medical expenses when you are sick. The goal of a private insurance company is to not pay for your expenses. So the public option might be incompetent at trying to pay you. But private companies are very competent at not paying you. Who would you trust more?

[ltokuda]

[quote=sd_matt]
Last time I checked roads were built with DMV fees and gasoline taxes. If I am wrong then I’m wrong. But that is the way it should be…not an argument to justify more control by a very incompetent government.

Let people decide for themselves to be healthy or unhealthy.

Whoever said your indoctrinated is right. You refuse to say whether or not you think those in Congress are competent.

And if you do acknowledge that they are incompetent then you are outright insane since you want them to handle your health care.[/quote]

I believe the interstate highway system was built by the U.S. government. The idea is that interstate highways benefit the country as a whole and make it stronger. But if you left it up to each state or county to build their portion of the highway, no one would want to pay for it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that congress will run a public option with supreme competence. But remember that the goal of the public option is to pay for your medical expenses when you are sick. The goal of a private insurance company is to not pay for your expenses. So the public option might be incompetent at trying to pay you. But private companies are very competent at not paying you. Who would you trust more?

[ltokuda]

[quote=sd_matt]
Last time I checked roads were built with DMV fees and gasoline taxes. If I am wrong then I’m wrong. But that is the way it should be…not an argument to justify more control by a very incompetent government.

Let people decide for themselves to be healthy or unhealthy.

Whoever said your indoctrinated is right. You refuse to say whether or not you think those in Congress are competent.

And if you do acknowledge that they are incompetent then you are outright insane since you want them to handle your health care.[/quote]

I believe the interstate highway system was built by the U.S. government. The idea is that interstate highways benefit the country as a whole and make it stronger. But if you left it up to each state or county to build their portion of the highway, no one would want to pay for it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that congress will run a public option with supreme competence. But remember that the goal of the public option is to pay for your medical expenses when you are sick. The goal of a private insurance company is to not pay for your expenses. So the public option might be incompetent at trying to pay you. But private companies are very competent at not paying you. Who would you trust more?

[ltokuda]

[quote=sd_matt]
Last time I checked roads were built with DMV fees and gasoline taxes. If I am wrong then I’m wrong. But that is the way it should be…not an argument to justify more control by a very incompetent government.

Let people decide for themselves to be healthy or unhealthy.

Whoever said your indoctrinated is right. You refuse to say whether or not you think those in Congress are competent.

And if you do acknowledge that they are incompetent then you are outright insane since you want them to handle your health care.[/quote]

I believe the interstate highway system was built by the U.S. government. The idea is that interstate highways benefit the country as a whole and make it stronger. But if you left it up to each state or county to build their portion of the highway, no one would want to pay for it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that congress will run a public option with supreme competence. But remember that the goal of the public option is to pay for your medical expenses when you are sick. The goal of a private insurance company is to not pay for your expenses. So the public option might be incompetent at trying to pay you. But private companies are very competent at not paying you. Who would you trust more?

[ltokuda]

[quote=sd_matt]
Last time I checked roads were built with DMV fees and gasoline taxes. If I am wrong then I’m wrong. But that is the way it should be…not an argument to justify more control by a very incompetent government.

Let people decide for themselves to be healthy or unhealthy.

Whoever said your indoctrinated is right. You refuse to say whether or not you think those in Congress are competent.

And if you do acknowledge that they are incompetent then you are outright insane since you want them to handle your health care.[/quote]

I believe the interstate highway system was built by the U.S. government. The idea is that interstate highways benefit the country as a whole and make it stronger. But if you left it up to each state or county to build their portion of the highway, no one would want to pay for it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that congress will run a public option with supreme competence. But remember that the goal of the public option is to pay for your medical expenses when you are sick. The goal of a private insurance company is to not pay for your expenses. So the public option might be incompetent at trying to pay you. But private companies are very competent at not paying you. Who would you trust more?

[ucodegen]

Where did you get the 13 RN number again? RN makes ~$35/hr right now.

I took the yearly salary of $80k.. but here it is:
$90,000 = 1 month at 3000/day
$3,500 = nursing home equivalent
$80,000 = RN salary (35/hour comes to about $65k/yr)
($90,000 – $3,500)/($80,000/12) = 12.975
I used a higher RN salary to compensate for benis etc. I was not dividing it into shifts (3).. which would bring 4.325 nurses attending to one and only one patient.

Right off, you have a problem with your figures when applied to 1 RN handling 4 patients. You forgot that you have to divide your $35k-$40k/month by 4 because 1 RN serves 4 patients. This comes to $8,750 – $10,000 burdened per month or $292 to $333 per day in nursing costs. This is way below the charged $3000/day for the room.

If you have 13 dedicated nurse per patient, you’re looking at nursing cost of $105k/month.

I had $90,000 but the difference between the $105k and $90k is insignificant compared to how much it is higher than actual nursing costs. You don’t have 13 nurses dedicated to one patient.. you have 1 RN + a few CNA/LVNs dedicated to 4 patients (Scripps example)

[ucodegen]

Where did you get the 13 RN number again? RN makes ~$35/hr right now.

I took the yearly salary of $80k.. but here it is:
$90,000 = 1 month at 3000/day
$3,500 = nursing home equivalent
$80,000 = RN salary (35/hour comes to about $65k/yr)
($90,000 – $3,500)/($80,000/12) = 12.975
I used a higher RN salary to compensate for benis etc. I was not dividing it into shifts (3).. which would bring 4.325 nurses attending to one and only one patient.

Right off, you have a problem with your figures when applied to 1 RN handling 4 patients. You forgot that you have to divide your $35k-$40k/month by 4 because 1 RN serves 4 patients. This comes to $8,750 – $10,000 burdened per month or $292 to $333 per day in nursing costs. This is way below the charged $3000/day for the room.

If you have 13 dedicated nurse per patient, you’re looking at nursing cost of $105k/month.

I had $90,000 but the difference between the $105k and $90k is insignificant compared to how much it is higher than actual nursing costs. You don’t have 13 nurses dedicated to one patient.. you have 1 RN + a few CNA/LVNs dedicated to 4 patients (Scripps example)

[ucodegen]

Where did you get the 13 RN number again? RN makes ~$35/hr right now.

I took the yearly salary of $80k.. but here it is:
$90,000 = 1 month at 3000/day
$3,500 = nursing home equivalent
$80,000 = RN salary (35/hour comes to about $65k/yr)
($90,000 – $3,500)/($80,000/12) = 12.975
I used a higher RN salary to compensate for benis etc. I was not dividing it into shifts (3).. which would bring 4.325 nurses attending to one and only one patient.

Right off, you have a problem with your figures when applied to 1 RN handling 4 patients. You forgot that you have to divide your $35k-$40k/month by 4 because 1 RN serves 4 patients. This comes to $8,750 – $10,000 burdened per month or $292 to $333 per day in nursing costs. This is way below the charged $3000/day for the room.

If you have 13 dedicated nurse per patient, you’re looking at nursing cost of $105k/month.

I had $90,000 but the difference between the $105k and $90k is insignificant compared to how much it is higher than actual nursing costs. You don’t have 13 nurses dedicated to one patient.. you have 1 RN + a few CNA/LVNs dedicated to 4 patients (Scripps example)

[ucodegen]

Where did you get the 13 RN number again? RN makes ~$35/hr right now.

I took the yearly salary of $80k.. but here it is:
$90,000 = 1 month at 3000/day
$3,500 = nursing home equivalent
$80,000 = RN salary (35/hour comes to about $65k/yr)
($90,000 – $3,500)/($80,000/12) = 12.975
I used a higher RN salary to compensate for benis etc. I was not dividing it into shifts (3).. which would bring 4.325 nurses attending to one and only one patient.

Right off, you have a problem with your figures when applied to 1 RN handling 4 patients. You forgot that you have to divide your $35k-$40k/month by 4 because 1 RN serves 4 patients. This comes to $8,750 – $10,000 burdened per month or $292 to $333 per day in nursing costs. This is way below the charged $3000/day for the room.

If you have 13 dedicated nurse per patient, you’re looking at nursing cost of $105k/month.

I had $90,000 but the difference between the $105k and $90k is insignificant compared to how much it is higher than actual nursing costs. You don’t have 13 nurses dedicated to one patient.. you have 1 RN + a few CNA/LVNs dedicated to 4 patients (Scripps example)

[Author]

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