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ucodegen.
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May 27, 2011 at 8:02 AM #700494May 27, 2011 at 9:06 PM #699521
mike92104
ParticipantI would think it is a pro gun agenda. I’m not sure why they would have to spell it out.
May 27, 2011 at 9:06 PM #699617ParticipantI would think it is a pro gun agenda. I’m not sure why they would have to spell it out.
May 27, 2011 at 9:06 PM #700200ParticipantI would think it is a pro gun agenda. I’m not sure why they would have to spell it out.
May 27, 2011 at 9:06 PM #700348ParticipantI would think it is a pro gun agenda. I’m not sure why they would have to spell it out.
May 27, 2011 at 9:06 PM #700703ParticipantI would think it is a pro gun agenda. I’m not sure why they would have to spell it out.
May 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM #699526Participant[quote=Eugene][quote]True, but considering the previous case(United States of America v. Robert Lee Wright, Jr), I am wondering if the attorney was aware of Haynes vs U.S. If the source of the funds is required to be documented, it may provide a shield[/quote]
Which attorney? US v. Sullivan is dated 1927, Shapiro v. US is dated 1948.
[quote]Interesting statement considering that Switzerland has the most liberal gun control laws virtually anywhere, has one of the lowest crime rates and gun assault/murder rates and is a country that several nations considered attacking but then abandoned that idea. Also consider Washington DC, which had banned handguns except for police, yet their gun assault/murder rate was amongst the highest in the nation. Mexico has one of the highest murder rates as well, getting a gun permit in Mexico is also tricky. [/quote]
Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes crimes which can’t be plausibly deterred by gun ownership (and particularly by machine gun and assault rifle ownership). In 2009, there were 8.5 registered rapes per 100,000 residents. In the U.S. in the same year, there were 27 rapes per 100,000. I’m sure that if we go through other crimes such as burglaries and car thefts (which, presumably, occur when the owner of the property being stolen isn’t present, and gun ownership can’t be a strong deterrent either), we’ll see the same thing.
Comparing gun control laws of Switzerland and D.C. or Mexico and making ANY conclusions about their effectiveness is one of the worst kinds of fallacies one can reach in this subject.
Here’s one reason why. People often mistakenly assume that most homicides involve a career criminal, e.g. a robber, shooting an innocent unfamiliar victim. It is argued that gun ownership is a deterrent to such crimes.
But, in reality, the most common kind of homicide in this country is an argument between two acquaintances, possibly (but not necessarily) under the influence of alcohol or drugs, which escalates into a fight. The second most common kind is a juvenile gang killing. (The third most common kind involves a man killing his wife or gilfriend.) I fail to see which one of these categories would be deterred by gun ownership.[/quote]
I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.
May 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM #699622Participant[quote=Eugene][quote]True, but considering the previous case(United States of America v. Robert Lee Wright, Jr), I am wondering if the attorney was aware of Haynes vs U.S. If the source of the funds is required to be documented, it may provide a shield[/quote]
Which attorney? US v. Sullivan is dated 1927, Shapiro v. US is dated 1948.
[quote]Interesting statement considering that Switzerland has the most liberal gun control laws virtually anywhere, has one of the lowest crime rates and gun assault/murder rates and is a country that several nations considered attacking but then abandoned that idea. Also consider Washington DC, which had banned handguns except for police, yet their gun assault/murder rate was amongst the highest in the nation. Mexico has one of the highest murder rates as well, getting a gun permit in Mexico is also tricky. [/quote]
Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes crimes which can’t be plausibly deterred by gun ownership (and particularly by machine gun and assault rifle ownership). In 2009, there were 8.5 registered rapes per 100,000 residents. In the U.S. in the same year, there were 27 rapes per 100,000. I’m sure that if we go through other crimes such as burglaries and car thefts (which, presumably, occur when the owner of the property being stolen isn’t present, and gun ownership can’t be a strong deterrent either), we’ll see the same thing.
Comparing gun control laws of Switzerland and D.C. or Mexico and making ANY conclusions about their effectiveness is one of the worst kinds of fallacies one can reach in this subject.
Here’s one reason why. People often mistakenly assume that most homicides involve a career criminal, e.g. a robber, shooting an innocent unfamiliar victim. It is argued that gun ownership is a deterrent to such crimes.
But, in reality, the most common kind of homicide in this country is an argument between two acquaintances, possibly (but not necessarily) under the influence of alcohol or drugs, which escalates into a fight. The second most common kind is a juvenile gang killing. (The third most common kind involves a man killing his wife or gilfriend.) I fail to see which one of these categories would be deterred by gun ownership.[/quote]
I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.
May 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM #700205Participant[quote=Eugene][quote]True, but considering the previous case(United States of America v. Robert Lee Wright, Jr), I am wondering if the attorney was aware of Haynes vs U.S. If the source of the funds is required to be documented, it may provide a shield[/quote]
Which attorney? US v. Sullivan is dated 1927, Shapiro v. US is dated 1948.
[quote]Interesting statement considering that Switzerland has the most liberal gun control laws virtually anywhere, has one of the lowest crime rates and gun assault/murder rates and is a country that several nations considered attacking but then abandoned that idea. Also consider Washington DC, which had banned handguns except for police, yet their gun assault/murder rate was amongst the highest in the nation. Mexico has one of the highest murder rates as well, getting a gun permit in Mexico is also tricky. [/quote]
Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes crimes which can’t be plausibly deterred by gun ownership (and particularly by machine gun and assault rifle ownership). In 2009, there were 8.5 registered rapes per 100,000 residents. In the U.S. in the same year, there were 27 rapes per 100,000. I’m sure that if we go through other crimes such as burglaries and car thefts (which, presumably, occur when the owner of the property being stolen isn’t present, and gun ownership can’t be a strong deterrent either), we’ll see the same thing.
Comparing gun control laws of Switzerland and D.C. or Mexico and making ANY conclusions about their effectiveness is one of the worst kinds of fallacies one can reach in this subject.
Here’s one reason why. People often mistakenly assume that most homicides involve a career criminal, e.g. a robber, shooting an innocent unfamiliar victim. It is argued that gun ownership is a deterrent to such crimes.
But, in reality, the most common kind of homicide in this country is an argument between two acquaintances, possibly (but not necessarily) under the influence of alcohol or drugs, which escalates into a fight. The second most common kind is a juvenile gang killing. (The third most common kind involves a man killing his wife or gilfriend.) I fail to see which one of these categories would be deterred by gun ownership.[/quote]
I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.
May 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM #700353Participant[quote=Eugene][quote]True, but considering the previous case(United States of America v. Robert Lee Wright, Jr), I am wondering if the attorney was aware of Haynes vs U.S. If the source of the funds is required to be documented, it may provide a shield[/quote]
Which attorney? US v. Sullivan is dated 1927, Shapiro v. US is dated 1948.
[quote]Interesting statement considering that Switzerland has the most liberal gun control laws virtually anywhere, has one of the lowest crime rates and gun assault/murder rates and is a country that several nations considered attacking but then abandoned that idea. Also consider Washington DC, which had banned handguns except for police, yet their gun assault/murder rate was amongst the highest in the nation. Mexico has one of the highest murder rates as well, getting a gun permit in Mexico is also tricky. [/quote]
Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes crimes which can’t be plausibly deterred by gun ownership (and particularly by machine gun and assault rifle ownership). In 2009, there were 8.5 registered rapes per 100,000 residents. In the U.S. in the same year, there were 27 rapes per 100,000. I’m sure that if we go through other crimes such as burglaries and car thefts (which, presumably, occur when the owner of the property being stolen isn’t present, and gun ownership can’t be a strong deterrent either), we’ll see the same thing.
Comparing gun control laws of Switzerland and D.C. or Mexico and making ANY conclusions about their effectiveness is one of the worst kinds of fallacies one can reach in this subject.
Here’s one reason why. People often mistakenly assume that most homicides involve a career criminal, e.g. a robber, shooting an innocent unfamiliar victim. It is argued that gun ownership is a deterrent to such crimes.
But, in reality, the most common kind of homicide in this country is an argument between two acquaintances, possibly (but not necessarily) under the influence of alcohol or drugs, which escalates into a fight. The second most common kind is a juvenile gang killing. (The third most common kind involves a man killing his wife or gilfriend.) I fail to see which one of these categories would be deterred by gun ownership.[/quote]
I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.
May 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM #700708Participant[quote=Eugene][quote]True, but considering the previous case(United States of America v. Robert Lee Wright, Jr), I am wondering if the attorney was aware of Haynes vs U.S. If the source of the funds is required to be documented, it may provide a shield[/quote]
Which attorney? US v. Sullivan is dated 1927, Shapiro v. US is dated 1948.
[quote]Interesting statement considering that Switzerland has the most liberal gun control laws virtually anywhere, has one of the lowest crime rates and gun assault/murder rates and is a country that several nations considered attacking but then abandoned that idea. Also consider Washington DC, which had banned handguns except for police, yet their gun assault/murder rate was amongst the highest in the nation. Mexico has one of the highest murder rates as well, getting a gun permit in Mexico is also tricky. [/quote]
Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes crimes which can’t be plausibly deterred by gun ownership (and particularly by machine gun and assault rifle ownership). In 2009, there were 8.5 registered rapes per 100,000 residents. In the U.S. in the same year, there were 27 rapes per 100,000. I’m sure that if we go through other crimes such as burglaries and car thefts (which, presumably, occur when the owner of the property being stolen isn’t present, and gun ownership can’t be a strong deterrent either), we’ll see the same thing.
Comparing gun control laws of Switzerland and D.C. or Mexico and making ANY conclusions about their effectiveness is one of the worst kinds of fallacies one can reach in this subject.
Here’s one reason why. People often mistakenly assume that most homicides involve a career criminal, e.g. a robber, shooting an innocent unfamiliar victim. It is argued that gun ownership is a deterrent to such crimes.
But, in reality, the most common kind of homicide in this country is an argument between two acquaintances, possibly (but not necessarily) under the influence of alcohol or drugs, which escalates into a fight. The second most common kind is a juvenile gang killing. (The third most common kind involves a man killing his wife or gilfriend.) I fail to see which one of these categories would be deterred by gun ownership.[/quote]
I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.
May 31, 2011 at 1:52 AM #700077Eugene
Participant[quote]I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.[/quote]
This argument as as valid as the right-wing claim that the Obama stimulus has failed: we did the stimulus, we still have unemployment, ergo stimulus can’t work. We tried to do gun control in DC, we still have an inordinate murder rate there, ergo gun control does not work. (Of course, the correct come-back is that the stimulus worked but it was too small, and that gun control works but it’s not enough to make DC look like Laguna Niguel.)
On the other hand, a lot of violent crime is cultural/structural/genetic (e.g. the likelihood of two acquaintances killing each other over a trivial dispute is mostly cultural). If we look at the only more-or-less developed country that has demographics similar to DC – South Africa – their murder rate is just as bad. I just saw an article that said that the rape rate in Congo was a hundred times that of the US. This is all completely cultural.
In fact, the low murder rate we have in the Western world is an anomaly. In the old days before the Industrial Revolution & such, it was entirely normal for an adolescent male to have a 20% chance of getting murdered in his lifetime. Things gradually got normalized in the West because violent alleles died off.
May 31, 2011 at 1:52 AM #700174Participant[quote]I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.[/quote]
This argument as as valid as the right-wing claim that the Obama stimulus has failed: we did the stimulus, we still have unemployment, ergo stimulus can’t work. We tried to do gun control in DC, we still have an inordinate murder rate there, ergo gun control does not work. (Of course, the correct come-back is that the stimulus worked but it was too small, and that gun control works but it’s not enough to make DC look like Laguna Niguel.)
On the other hand, a lot of violent crime is cultural/structural/genetic (e.g. the likelihood of two acquaintances killing each other over a trivial dispute is mostly cultural). If we look at the only more-or-less developed country that has demographics similar to DC – South Africa – their murder rate is just as bad. I just saw an article that said that the rape rate in Congo was a hundred times that of the US. This is all completely cultural.
In fact, the low murder rate we have in the Western world is an anomaly. In the old days before the Industrial Revolution & such, it was entirely normal for an adolescent male to have a 20% chance of getting murdered in his lifetime. Things gradually got normalized in the West because violent alleles died off.
May 31, 2011 at 1:52 AM #700762Participant[quote]I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.[/quote]
This argument as as valid as the right-wing claim that the Obama stimulus has failed: we did the stimulus, we still have unemployment, ergo stimulus can’t work. We tried to do gun control in DC, we still have an inordinate murder rate there, ergo gun control does not work. (Of course, the correct come-back is that the stimulus worked but it was too small, and that gun control works but it’s not enough to make DC look like Laguna Niguel.)
On the other hand, a lot of violent crime is cultural/structural/genetic (e.g. the likelihood of two acquaintances killing each other over a trivial dispute is mostly cultural). If we look at the only more-or-less developed country that has demographics similar to DC – South Africa – their murder rate is just as bad. I just saw an article that said that the rape rate in Congo was a hundred times that of the US. This is all completely cultural.
In fact, the low murder rate we have in the Western world is an anomaly. In the old days before the Industrial Revolution & such, it was entirely normal for an adolescent male to have a 20% chance of getting murdered in his lifetime. Things gradually got normalized in the West because violent alleles died off.
May 31, 2011 at 1:52 AM #700909Participant[quote]I think the point is that gun control hasn’t done anything to deter those crimes either.[/quote]
This argument as as valid as the right-wing claim that the Obama stimulus has failed: we did the stimulus, we still have unemployment, ergo stimulus can’t work. We tried to do gun control in DC, we still have an inordinate murder rate there, ergo gun control does not work. (Of course, the correct come-back is that the stimulus worked but it was too small, and that gun control works but it’s not enough to make DC look like Laguna Niguel.)
On the other hand, a lot of violent crime is cultural/structural/genetic (e.g. the likelihood of two acquaintances killing each other over a trivial dispute is mostly cultural). If we look at the only more-or-less developed country that has demographics similar to DC – South Africa – their murder rate is just as bad. I just saw an article that said that the rape rate in Congo was a hundred times that of the US. This is all completely cultural.
In fact, the low murder rate we have in the Western world is an anomaly. In the old days before the Industrial Revolution & such, it was entirely normal for an adolescent male to have a 20% chance of getting murdered in his lifetime. Things gradually got normalized in the West because violent alleles died off.
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