Gold Redux: What do you folks thing about this?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]Allan is correct, in principle. Though, I think, technically off a bit. Gold is like fiat, in a sense, a perception game. Though, it is subject to the rules of physics, which I like, unlike fiat. Still, It takes a bunch of people to agree that it is worth something beyond it’s utility. Gold has utility, unlike fiat, but not much by commodity standards.

Fiat is backed by debt and the ability to pay it back. As the ability to pay it back goes down so does it’s value.

Fiat is GUARANTEED to go down in value. At this juncture, I think, a sudden dramatic drop is in the cards.

A sudden drop in fiat could cause a perception/psychological shift.

People have a long history of using gold as money

We have not seen gold fever yet

[/quote]

Arraya: Thanks. You did a better job of making my point than I did, but you hit it on the head.

Part of the problem with arguments like Peter’s and Scaredy’s is that they also ignore the social constructs necessary to impart value to gold or fiat currency or Dutch tulips, for that matter.

Gold is not possessed of an intrinsic value, that value is imparted or, more correctly, set. It is set by a wide variety of factors, but I doubt you will see a wholesale collapse of the dollar, immediately followed by gold becoming the de facto REAL MONEY.

Using “history” and “facts” without fully understanding either also destroys the ability to effectively argue a point, too.

[scaredyclassic]

no social contract necessary to make gold real money. Rome falls, gold remains. gold is not dependent on the usa, china, no one. the dollar is dependent on faith. gold is an essential element, with no liabilities. it is. we dont call it the dollar rule, we call it the golden rule. the buck stops here, but gold is what we make wedding rings out of to symbolize long term.

what part of history dont i understand? you say gold is dependent on social contructs? well, that’s true, but only in the sense that “man is the measure of all things”, and nothing really has any value thatw e don’t impart to it. but that’s not the question. the question goes well beyond whetehr or not gold has any intrinsic value; the question is, given that empires rise and fall and fade into the sand, what single item, paper money, tulips, or gold, has stood the test of time and been picked up by virtually every single “socially constructed ” society and been viewed as a store of valueand survived the collapse of that society, wars, famine, plagues???. not tulips. not paper money. GOLD!!! GOLD!!!! GOLD!!!!!!! it is more fevereed, more elemental, more insane that the thirst for real estate. king midas didn’t make subdivisions. he had gold. it is a fearsome basic thing. yeah, i see the point, it doesn’t DO anything, doesn’t genenrate any income, doesn’t satsify and basic need, doesn’t produce fruits or crops, doesn’t cash flow. but it is eternal. if there is anything remotely resembling man on the planet 500 years from now, there will still be gold, and people will still be fighting about it, long after every single currently listed business on ay stock exchange has vansihed form the earth, every house is mulch…im not saying the businesses are bad investments because of that, i’m not saying houses are bad investments because of that basic truth — what I am saying is that when the poop is about to hit the fan, gold shines. because it has a pedigree, because it is forever, because it’s not going anywhere. ever…

i also doubt you will see the dollar absoltuely collapse, followed by gold as real money. but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it. the dollar of a century ago is worth a nickel today. follow the trend. there is nowehre to go but down from here. the dollar of today will be worth a nickel some years hence. how many years no one knows. but the trend is well established and there’s no turning back.

[scaredyclassic]

no social contract necessary to make gold real money. Rome falls, gold remains. gold is not dependent on the usa, china, no one. the dollar is dependent on faith. gold is an essential element, with no liabilities. it is. we dont call it the dollar rule, we call it the golden rule. the buck stops here, but gold is what we make wedding rings out of to symbolize long term.

what part of history dont i understand? you say gold is dependent on social contructs? well, that’s true, but only in the sense that “man is the measure of all things”, and nothing really has any value thatw e don’t impart to it. but that’s not the question. the question goes well beyond whetehr or not gold has any intrinsic value; the question is, given that empires rise and fall and fade into the sand, what single item, paper money, tulips, or gold, has stood the test of time and been picked up by virtually every single “socially constructed ” society and been viewed as a store of valueand survived the collapse of that society, wars, famine, plagues???. not tulips. not paper money. GOLD!!! GOLD!!!! GOLD!!!!!!! it is more fevereed, more elemental, more insane that the thirst for real estate. king midas didn’t make subdivisions. he had gold. it is a fearsome basic thing. yeah, i see the point, it doesn’t DO anything, doesn’t genenrate any income, doesn’t satsify and basic need, doesn’t produce fruits or crops, doesn’t cash flow. but it is eternal. if there is anything remotely resembling man on the planet 500 years from now, there will still be gold, and people will still be fighting about it, long after every single currently listed business on ay stock exchange has vansihed form the earth, every house is mulch…im not saying the businesses are bad investments because of that, i’m not saying houses are bad investments because of that basic truth — what I am saying is that when the poop is about to hit the fan, gold shines. because it has a pedigree, because it is forever, because it’s not going anywhere. ever…

i also doubt you will see the dollar absoltuely collapse, followed by gold as real money. but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it. the dollar of a century ago is worth a nickel today. follow the trend. there is nowehre to go but down from here. the dollar of today will be worth a nickel some years hence. how many years no one knows. but the trend is well established and there’s no turning back.

[scaredyclassic]

no social contract necessary to make gold real money. Rome falls, gold remains. gold is not dependent on the usa, china, no one. the dollar is dependent on faith. gold is an essential element, with no liabilities. it is. we dont call it the dollar rule, we call it the golden rule. the buck stops here, but gold is what we make wedding rings out of to symbolize long term.

what part of history dont i understand? you say gold is dependent on social contructs? well, that’s true, but only in the sense that “man is the measure of all things”, and nothing really has any value thatw e don’t impart to it. but that’s not the question. the question goes well beyond whetehr or not gold has any intrinsic value; the question is, given that empires rise and fall and fade into the sand, what single item, paper money, tulips, or gold, has stood the test of time and been picked up by virtually every single “socially constructed ” society and been viewed as a store of valueand survived the collapse of that society, wars, famine, plagues???. not tulips. not paper money. GOLD!!! GOLD!!!! GOLD!!!!!!! it is more fevereed, more elemental, more insane that the thirst for real estate. king midas didn’t make subdivisions. he had gold. it is a fearsome basic thing. yeah, i see the point, it doesn’t DO anything, doesn’t genenrate any income, doesn’t satsify and basic need, doesn’t produce fruits or crops, doesn’t cash flow. but it is eternal. if there is anything remotely resembling man on the planet 500 years from now, there will still be gold, and people will still be fighting about it, long after every single currently listed business on ay stock exchange has vansihed form the earth, every house is mulch…im not saying the businesses are bad investments because of that, i’m not saying houses are bad investments because of that basic truth — what I am saying is that when the poop is about to hit the fan, gold shines. because it has a pedigree, because it is forever, because it’s not going anywhere. ever…

i also doubt you will see the dollar absoltuely collapse, followed by gold as real money. but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it. the dollar of a century ago is worth a nickel today. follow the trend. there is nowehre to go but down from here. the dollar of today will be worth a nickel some years hence. how many years no one knows. but the trend is well established and there’s no turning back.

[scaredyclassic]

no social contract necessary to make gold real money. Rome falls, gold remains. gold is not dependent on the usa, china, no one. the dollar is dependent on faith. gold is an essential element, with no liabilities. it is. we dont call it the dollar rule, we call it the golden rule. the buck stops here, but gold is what we make wedding rings out of to symbolize long term.

what part of history dont i understand? you say gold is dependent on social contructs? well, that’s true, but only in the sense that “man is the measure of all things”, and nothing really has any value thatw e don’t impart to it. but that’s not the question. the question goes well beyond whetehr or not gold has any intrinsic value; the question is, given that empires rise and fall and fade into the sand, what single item, paper money, tulips, or gold, has stood the test of time and been picked up by virtually every single “socially constructed ” society and been viewed as a store of valueand survived the collapse of that society, wars, famine, plagues???. not tulips. not paper money. GOLD!!! GOLD!!!! GOLD!!!!!!! it is more fevereed, more elemental, more insane that the thirst for real estate. king midas didn’t make subdivisions. he had gold. it is a fearsome basic thing. yeah, i see the point, it doesn’t DO anything, doesn’t genenrate any income, doesn’t satsify and basic need, doesn’t produce fruits or crops, doesn’t cash flow. but it is eternal. if there is anything remotely resembling man on the planet 500 years from now, there will still be gold, and people will still be fighting about it, long after every single currently listed business on ay stock exchange has vansihed form the earth, every house is mulch…im not saying the businesses are bad investments because of that, i’m not saying houses are bad investments because of that basic truth — what I am saying is that when the poop is about to hit the fan, gold shines. because it has a pedigree, because it is forever, because it’s not going anywhere. ever…

i also doubt you will see the dollar absoltuely collapse, followed by gold as real money. but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it. the dollar of a century ago is worth a nickel today. follow the trend. there is nowehre to go but down from here. the dollar of today will be worth a nickel some years hence. how many years no one knows. but the trend is well established and there’s no turning back.

[scaredyclassic]

no social contract necessary to make gold real money. Rome falls, gold remains. gold is not dependent on the usa, china, no one. the dollar is dependent on faith. gold is an essential element, with no liabilities. it is. we dont call it the dollar rule, we call it the golden rule. the buck stops here, but gold is what we make wedding rings out of to symbolize long term.

what part of history dont i understand? you say gold is dependent on social contructs? well, that’s true, but only in the sense that “man is the measure of all things”, and nothing really has any value thatw e don’t impart to it. but that’s not the question. the question goes well beyond whetehr or not gold has any intrinsic value; the question is, given that empires rise and fall and fade into the sand, what single item, paper money, tulips, or gold, has stood the test of time and been picked up by virtually every single “socially constructed ” society and been viewed as a store of valueand survived the collapse of that society, wars, famine, plagues???. not tulips. not paper money. GOLD!!! GOLD!!!! GOLD!!!!!!! it is more fevereed, more elemental, more insane that the thirst for real estate. king midas didn’t make subdivisions. he had gold. it is a fearsome basic thing. yeah, i see the point, it doesn’t DO anything, doesn’t genenrate any income, doesn’t satsify and basic need, doesn’t produce fruits or crops, doesn’t cash flow. but it is eternal. if there is anything remotely resembling man on the planet 500 years from now, there will still be gold, and people will still be fighting about it, long after every single currently listed business on ay stock exchange has vansihed form the earth, every house is mulch…im not saying the businesses are bad investments because of that, i’m not saying houses are bad investments because of that basic truth — what I am saying is that when the poop is about to hit the fan, gold shines. because it has a pedigree, because it is forever, because it’s not going anywhere. ever…

i also doubt you will see the dollar absoltuely collapse, followed by gold as real money. but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it. the dollar of a century ago is worth a nickel today. follow the trend. there is nowehre to go but down from here. the dollar of today will be worth a nickel some years hence. how many years no one knows. but the trend is well established and there’s no turning back.

[scaredyclassic]

allan; im not talking about your total worldview; im talking about your recent american financial history worldview that gold is some sort of odd, bizarre old thing that has no meaning other than what we americans choose to assign it in terms of dolalrs. that’s normal. it’s normal to say, “how many dollars is the piece of gold worth”. that’s normal, that’s american, that’s essentially what you are saying when you say gold’s value is socially constructed. I say to you, how much gold are those dollars currently worth? ” that’s the abnormal question, that’s the deviant world view.

it’s the sense that nothing we have is stable. nothing we have is permanent. that the SEC, the govt, your financial adviser, is as brainwashed and unaware and foolishly deceptive as any con man. Look, I used to be involved in the issuance of municipal debt. i was essentially a very highly paid proofreader. we had to “verify” certain assertions, certain dollars amounts, certain trust deeds, “guartanteeing” certinc ash flows. it all “added up”, it all made sense on apper. But none of us involved had any idea really if any of it was true. we were involved ina massive circle jerk of faith, all relying upon one another’s assertions, making sure the numbers were in the right place and the right language was in place. and maybe none of it is owrth nearly as much as people think.

but gold requires no proofreader.

it bought clothese for shakespeare’s society because it’s true they said it was worth something. you’re right in that sense. but here’s the funny thing….all these societies along all thes epoints of time chose to put value in gold. doesn’t that speak to you? or is the circle jerk of publicly issued debt seem more stable, mroe real, a more stable sense of value.

I never said it was a STABLE store of value, at least, i hope i didn’t. i certainly didn’t mena that, as i have seen a lot of valatility just int he years ive bene involved wiht it. and im old enough to remember the 80s and gold personally. i remmeber kids getting cold coins for bar mitzvah gifts.

i said it was a longstanding store of value, in other words, all thos ebonds i had a small hand in prodcuing, may go to zero. but gold wont.

[scaredyclassic]

allan; im not talking about your total worldview; im talking about your recent american financial history worldview that gold is some sort of odd, bizarre old thing that has no meaning other than what we americans choose to assign it in terms of dolalrs. that’s normal. it’s normal to say, “how many dollars is the piece of gold worth”. that’s normal, that’s american, that’s essentially what you are saying when you say gold’s value is socially constructed. I say to you, how much gold are those dollars currently worth? ” that’s the abnormal question, that’s the deviant world view.

it’s the sense that nothing we have is stable. nothing we have is permanent. that the SEC, the govt, your financial adviser, is as brainwashed and unaware and foolishly deceptive as any con man. Look, I used to be involved in the issuance of municipal debt. i was essentially a very highly paid proofreader. we had to “verify” certain assertions, certain dollars amounts, certain trust deeds, “guartanteeing” certinc ash flows. it all “added up”, it all made sense on apper. But none of us involved had any idea really if any of it was true. we were involved ina massive circle jerk of faith, all relying upon one another’s assertions, making sure the numbers were in the right place and the right language was in place. and maybe none of it is owrth nearly as much as people think.

but gold requires no proofreader.

it bought clothese for shakespeare’s society because it’s true they said it was worth something. you’re right in that sense. but here’s the funny thing….all these societies along all thes epoints of time chose to put value in gold. doesn’t that speak to you? or is the circle jerk of publicly issued debt seem more stable, mroe real, a more stable sense of value.

I never said it was a STABLE store of value, at least, i hope i didn’t. i certainly didn’t mena that, as i have seen a lot of valatility just int he years ive bene involved wiht it. and im old enough to remember the 80s and gold personally. i remmeber kids getting cold coins for bar mitzvah gifts.

i said it was a longstanding store of value, in other words, all thos ebonds i had a small hand in prodcuing, may go to zero. but gold wont.

[scaredyclassic]

allan; im not talking about your total worldview; im talking about your recent american financial history worldview that gold is some sort of odd, bizarre old thing that has no meaning other than what we americans choose to assign it in terms of dolalrs. that’s normal. it’s normal to say, “how many dollars is the piece of gold worth”. that’s normal, that’s american, that’s essentially what you are saying when you say gold’s value is socially constructed. I say to you, how much gold are those dollars currently worth? ” that’s the abnormal question, that’s the deviant world view.

it’s the sense that nothing we have is stable. nothing we have is permanent. that the SEC, the govt, your financial adviser, is as brainwashed and unaware and foolishly deceptive as any con man. Look, I used to be involved in the issuance of municipal debt. i was essentially a very highly paid proofreader. we had to “verify” certain assertions, certain dollars amounts, certain trust deeds, “guartanteeing” certinc ash flows. it all “added up”, it all made sense on apper. But none of us involved had any idea really if any of it was true. we were involved ina massive circle jerk of faith, all relying upon one another’s assertions, making sure the numbers were in the right place and the right language was in place. and maybe none of it is owrth nearly as much as people think.

but gold requires no proofreader.

it bought clothese for shakespeare’s society because it’s true they said it was worth something. you’re right in that sense. but here’s the funny thing….all these societies along all thes epoints of time chose to put value in gold. doesn’t that speak to you? or is the circle jerk of publicly issued debt seem more stable, mroe real, a more stable sense of value.

I never said it was a STABLE store of value, at least, i hope i didn’t. i certainly didn’t mena that, as i have seen a lot of valatility just int he years ive bene involved wiht it. and im old enough to remember the 80s and gold personally. i remmeber kids getting cold coins for bar mitzvah gifts.

i said it was a longstanding store of value, in other words, all thos ebonds i had a small hand in prodcuing, may go to zero. but gold wont.

[scaredyclassic]

allan; im not talking about your total worldview; im talking about your recent american financial history worldview that gold is some sort of odd, bizarre old thing that has no meaning other than what we americans choose to assign it in terms of dolalrs. that’s normal. it’s normal to say, “how many dollars is the piece of gold worth”. that’s normal, that’s american, that’s essentially what you are saying when you say gold’s value is socially constructed. I say to you, how much gold are those dollars currently worth? ” that’s the abnormal question, that’s the deviant world view.

it’s the sense that nothing we have is stable. nothing we have is permanent. that the SEC, the govt, your financial adviser, is as brainwashed and unaware and foolishly deceptive as any con man. Look, I used to be involved in the issuance of municipal debt. i was essentially a very highly paid proofreader. we had to “verify” certain assertions, certain dollars amounts, certain trust deeds, “guartanteeing” certinc ash flows. it all “added up”, it all made sense on apper. But none of us involved had any idea really if any of it was true. we were involved ina massive circle jerk of faith, all relying upon one another’s assertions, making sure the numbers were in the right place and the right language was in place. and maybe none of it is owrth nearly as much as people think.

but gold requires no proofreader.

it bought clothese for shakespeare’s society because it’s true they said it was worth something. you’re right in that sense. but here’s the funny thing….all these societies along all thes epoints of time chose to put value in gold. doesn’t that speak to you? or is the circle jerk of publicly issued debt seem more stable, mroe real, a more stable sense of value.

I never said it was a STABLE store of value, at least, i hope i didn’t. i certainly didn’t mena that, as i have seen a lot of valatility just int he years ive bene involved wiht it. and im old enough to remember the 80s and gold personally. i remmeber kids getting cold coins for bar mitzvah gifts.

i said it was a longstanding store of value, in other words, all thos ebonds i had a small hand in prodcuing, may go to zero. but gold wont.

[scaredyclassic]

allan; im not talking about your total worldview; im talking about your recent american financial history worldview that gold is some sort of odd, bizarre old thing that has no meaning other than what we americans choose to assign it in terms of dolalrs. that’s normal. it’s normal to say, “how many dollars is the piece of gold worth”. that’s normal, that’s american, that’s essentially what you are saying when you say gold’s value is socially constructed. I say to you, how much gold are those dollars currently worth? ” that’s the abnormal question, that’s the deviant world view.

it’s the sense that nothing we have is stable. nothing we have is permanent. that the SEC, the govt, your financial adviser, is as brainwashed and unaware and foolishly deceptive as any con man. Look, I used to be involved in the issuance of municipal debt. i was essentially a very highly paid proofreader. we had to “verify” certain assertions, certain dollars amounts, certain trust deeds, “guartanteeing” certinc ash flows. it all “added up”, it all made sense on apper. But none of us involved had any idea really if any of it was true. we were involved ina massive circle jerk of faith, all relying upon one another’s assertions, making sure the numbers were in the right place and the right language was in place. and maybe none of it is owrth nearly as much as people think.

but gold requires no proofreader.

it bought clothese for shakespeare’s society because it’s true they said it was worth something. you’re right in that sense. but here’s the funny thing….all these societies along all thes epoints of time chose to put value in gold. doesn’t that speak to you? or is the circle jerk of publicly issued debt seem more stable, mroe real, a more stable sense of value.

I never said it was a STABLE store of value, at least, i hope i didn’t. i certainly didn’t mena that, as i have seen a lot of valatility just int he years ive bene involved wiht it. and im old enough to remember the 80s and gold personally. i remmeber kids getting cold coins for bar mitzvah gifts.

i said it was a longstanding store of value, in other words, all thos ebonds i had a small hand in prodcuing, may go to zero. but gold wont.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Scaredy: I’ll split the difference with you and offer up the British Empire as the most recent and best example I can think of to support my theory of what I think will happen with the US and the dollar.

We are following a similar script to England’s in the sense that America, like England, finds herself attenuated and suffering from overstretch. During England’s rise, the pound sterling enjoyed a, well, sterling reputation in the world markets and was, in many ways, a similar benchmark for currency valuation.

I think the US will undergo a similar phase and I think the dollar will also suffer accordingly. I’m not naysaying gold’s value in this case, but I am naysaying all of the people out there plumping gold as “the answer” and what to own when the shit hits the fan.

England watched her entire empire unravel following WWII and yet, here she still remains. The US will always possess abundant natural resources, an enviable strategic position (geographically speaking) and a dynamic population. No, this isn’t a Pollyanna reading of events, but it more supports the notion of gradual decline to a more appropriate situation then it supports the idea of a wholesale collapse.

I’m not saying you feel that there will be a wholesale collapse, either, but many of the folks out there shilling gold are. And they’re selling fear along with the coins. That’s why I keep saying that if you read history and find the proper analogies, they’ll lead you to an understanding that many other things possess value as well and will also survive the downturn.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Scaredy: I’ll split the difference with you and offer up the British Empire as the most recent and best example I can think of to support my theory of what I think will happen with the US and the dollar.

We are following a similar script to England’s in the sense that America, like England, finds herself attenuated and suffering from overstretch. During England’s rise, the pound sterling enjoyed a, well, sterling reputation in the world markets and was, in many ways, a similar benchmark for currency valuation.

I think the US will undergo a similar phase and I think the dollar will also suffer accordingly. I’m not naysaying gold’s value in this case, but I am naysaying all of the people out there plumping gold as “the answer” and what to own when the shit hits the fan.

England watched her entire empire unravel following WWII and yet, here she still remains. The US will always possess abundant natural resources, an enviable strategic position (geographically speaking) and a dynamic population. No, this isn’t a Pollyanna reading of events, but it more supports the notion of gradual decline to a more appropriate situation then it supports the idea of a wholesale collapse.

I’m not saying you feel that there will be a wholesale collapse, either, but many of the folks out there shilling gold are. And they’re selling fear along with the coins. That’s why I keep saying that if you read history and find the proper analogies, they’ll lead you to an understanding that many other things possess value as well and will also survive the downturn.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Scaredy: I’ll split the difference with you and offer up the British Empire as the most recent and best example I can think of to support my theory of what I think will happen with the US and the dollar.

We are following a similar script to England’s in the sense that America, like England, finds herself attenuated and suffering from overstretch. During England’s rise, the pound sterling enjoyed a, well, sterling reputation in the world markets and was, in many ways, a similar benchmark for currency valuation.

I think the US will undergo a similar phase and I think the dollar will also suffer accordingly. I’m not naysaying gold’s value in this case, but I am naysaying all of the people out there plumping gold as “the answer” and what to own when the shit hits the fan.

England watched her entire empire unravel following WWII and yet, here she still remains. The US will always possess abundant natural resources, an enviable strategic position (geographically speaking) and a dynamic population. No, this isn’t a Pollyanna reading of events, but it more supports the notion of gradual decline to a more appropriate situation then it supports the idea of a wholesale collapse.

I’m not saying you feel that there will be a wholesale collapse, either, but many of the folks out there shilling gold are. And they’re selling fear along with the coins. That’s why I keep saying that if you read history and find the proper analogies, they’ll lead you to an understanding that many other things possess value as well and will also survive the downturn.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Scaredy: I’ll split the difference with you and offer up the British Empire as the most recent and best example I can think of to support my theory of what I think will happen with the US and the dollar.

We are following a similar script to England’s in the sense that America, like England, finds herself attenuated and suffering from overstretch. During England’s rise, the pound sterling enjoyed a, well, sterling reputation in the world markets and was, in many ways, a similar benchmark for currency valuation.

I think the US will undergo a similar phase and I think the dollar will also suffer accordingly. I’m not naysaying gold’s value in this case, but I am naysaying all of the people out there plumping gold as “the answer” and what to own when the shit hits the fan.

England watched her entire empire unravel following WWII and yet, here she still remains. The US will always possess abundant natural resources, an enviable strategic position (geographically speaking) and a dynamic population. No, this isn’t a Pollyanna reading of events, but it more supports the notion of gradual decline to a more appropriate situation then it supports the idea of a wholesale collapse.

I’m not saying you feel that there will be a wholesale collapse, either, but many of the folks out there shilling gold are. And they’re selling fear along with the coins. That’s why I keep saying that if you read history and find the proper analogies, they’ll lead you to an understanding that many other things possess value as well and will also survive the downturn.

[Author]

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