The cost of an Ivy League undergrad degree next year….

[bearishgurl]

[quote=deadzone][quote=flu][quote=deadzone]So every career on FLUs dream list are Wall St. banking activities. Personally I don’t consider those legit careers, certainly not for living in Socal. But sure those guys can get rich if that is your only goal in life and don’t mind selling your soul. Realistically, do you even need a college degree to be an investment banker? Probably more important who you know and what is your ethnicity.[/quote]

I’m sure doctors do pretty well mid-career, better than engineers, don’t you? And how long can doctors practice for?

I’m sure a decent attorney can still practice when their in their 60ies.

I’m sure a decent real estate broker/agent can still work in their 60ies.

You think you can practice in your engineering job when you are 70? Have you seen many 60-65 year old engineers?

I know you’re going to say, well most of those doctors/real estate brokers/agents/attoronies don’t do well… Well guess what? Most of the engineers these days that aren’t really good, don’t do really well either. They usually are the ones that get outsourced overseas first. So if you want to make a comparison, compare best case scenario to best case scenario or worst case scenario to worst case scenario. Also, if you felt engineering is so great, why do you continue to complain about H1-Bs being a threat? just curious[/quote]

You are nuts if you believe H1B is not a threat. Do you want your kids to have to compete with lower cost imported labor? Regardless of how “good” they are, net result is negative for the American worker. Just like with all the immigration debate, the only Americans that benefit from this are the employers.[/quote]

I’ve been arguing for YEARS that H1B is a real threat to American workers … esp tech workers. Other countries do not allow their (valuable) “living-wage” jobs to be usurped by hungry, foreign applicants …. and rightly so. It’s as it should be in those countries. The US is “giving away the store” in allowing employers to do this. We have always had PLENTY of homegrown talent in this country in ALL fields! It’s just that employers always want fresh (read: “young”) blood. They don’t want the 55+ yo American worker. There is a misconception out there among employers that older workers do not have the latest skills or their skills are not in the latest computer science or engineering subspecialities.

In actuality, nothing could be further from the truth. And now that healthcare-coverage cost is “off the table” due to the ACA, employers can just give older workers an “allowance” to help them pay their (already-supplemented) health premiums from exchange-purchased plans and give each worker just under FT-status (30-34 hrs wk?) so they don’t have to give them more expensive company-paid health benefits.

Instead, US employers (esp medical and tech employers) would rather deal with the annual H1B headache and often pay relocation and other, more expensive benefits to hire foreign applicants over available American applicants. Just because a foreign applicant possesses a recent “advanced degree” from a US university doesn’t mean they can express themselves coherently on paper or have a full command of the spoken English language. They could have hired someone (like me, lol) to write all their papers in college or dictated them to a typist before turning them in! Ha! And I’m no “spring chicken!”

For the most part, US employers treat vibrant and energetic “older-worker applicants” like they’re dumb, out of touch and have one foot in the grave. It’s a dirty shame and they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

[Coronita]

.

[Coronita]

[quote=deadzone]
You are nuts if you believe H1B is not a threat. Do you want your kids to have to compete with lower cost imported labor? Regardless of how “good” they are, net result is negative for the American worker. Just like with all the immigration debate, the only Americans that benefit from this are the employers.[/quote]

Did I say they weren’t a threat in some way?
Previously, I merely pointed out that you’re worrying about the wrong thing (if you’re worried at all) The H1-B business model is less of a threat than completely moving the entire group/division to a remote location, where you can save a lot more money, more so than hiring H1-B versus non H1-B. Most big tech companies have some remote office location now, and most big companies do this to some extent because it is more cost effective than hiring H1-B, in this day and again. You are so far behind the times if you think that H1-B is still the problem, and so out of touch with what companies really try to do these days..

I have not seen throughout the many years of hiring at my company that we paid someone on H1-B less than someone for the same position that wasn’t on H1-B. It probably does happen at a less than idea job at some seedy company, or for contracting work, which is more of a chop shop thing anyway. The entire contractor/contracting thing is just a seedy business model to begin with, and usually for shitty jobs and shitty temp positions, in a game between recruiters and headhunters and employers .

Every big company that wanted to “save on labor costs” for FTE’s did so by setting up a shop overseas because “for the price of 1 engineer we can hire here in the U.S. H1-B or not, we can hire X engineers in bangalore or beijing”, as they say.

And, I’m merely responding to your response about how great engineering is relative to other white collar professions, and pointing out the contradictory things you just stated about how great engineering is at the same time how lousy it can be wrto a threat from H1-B….

Do doctors run the risk of getting outsourced (right now?) How about lawyers? How about real estate agents? Again, I’m not complaining about engineering, because like I said, I like doing it. But clearly, financially it’s not *that* great if you factor everything, not just a starting salary. Who gives a shit about starting salary. I think W2 income ends up being taxed such that your first 3-4 months out of every year’s total paycheck goes to the IRS and FTB anyway…

And, no I’m not worried about an H1-B. Never had, never will. I’m more concerned about a company calling it quits and moving the entire division overseas when it’s no longer innovating and just doing incremental enhancements.

[Anonymous]

Sure Engineering may not be as lucrative as it once was, thanks to the overall threat of outsourcing/H1B. But, still beats the pants off of most professions for pay potential on average doesn’t it?

[bearishgurl]

Not ONE.SINGLE.DOCTOR (specialist) that I see (out of 8, depending on year/need) is under the age of 70. Two of them are frequent “expert witnesses” here in SD. And they are ALL SO BUSY they can’t even “retire.” One is “trying to retire” by limiting his office hours to 8:30 – 12:30, 4 days per week but he still has his hand in too many pots, lol…

Why would I (or anybody else who has a choice, for that matter) see an inexperienced “newbie” specialist when I can have the best in town??

How about surgery (major or minor)? If given the choice, who would the Piggs choose to perform it, a dr who has “observed and/or assisted with it” a handful of times and performed it a handful of times or a dr who has performed it hundreds (or thousands) of times and possibly taught interns and residents to perform it as well??

And I have never, ever hired an attorney in this town (or in any other jurisdiction) who wasn’t at least 65 years old … and I’ve hired a few in my lifetime. I didn’t have an “age requirement” when choosing them but I SURE wanted them to have a lot of credibility with local judges and with their (specialty) bar. It helps GREATLY if they have their names (figuratively) placed on a favorite chair in front of the judges benches they most frequent. And that the bailiffs in those departments greet them by name before they even sign in. You’re damned straight that all this matters … much more than one would think!

[Coronita]

[quote=deadzone]Sure Engineering may not be as lucrative as it once was, thanks to the overall threat of outsourcing/H1B. But, still beats the pants off of most professions for pay potential on average doesn’t it?[/quote]

Starting out, maybe. Over the life of the profession, most definitely not, unless again you hit it with the stock options/RSU grants.

I don’t see many single income earnings engineers without stock options able to afford to live in carmel valley, unless they are a dual income family.

I do see plenty of dentists, doctors, lawyers, self-employed business folks, or enigineers with side businesses or that dabbled into other non-engineering-job related things that supplemented their income though…

.Just saying.

[Anonymous]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=deadzone]Okay, give me one example of a Tech company that is run by Ivy grads? I just picked two of the most important San Diego companies, not cherry picking.

Reality is getting an Ivy degree does not give you a leg up in any type of tech career. Certainly not if you want to live/work in Socal which everybody here obviously does.

Also FLU, you are the only person I have ever heard that complained about Engineering not being a well paid profession. Can you name another white collar profession that you can pull nearly six figure starting salary immediately after a 4 year degree from a lowly state school? Pharmacy is the only profession that pays better starting out, but usually that is a 5 year or more degree nowadays.

But no, you are not going to get rich being an Engineer or most any other profession. Most wealthy people are trust funders. A fortunate few get lucky with IPOs, real estate etc. but I don’t consider those careers.[/quote]

Deadzone, Accounting pays nearly $100K right out of the gate IF the student passed their CPA Exam and got their masters degree (which is one additional year [or less] over the Bachelor’s degree requirements, depending on curriculum of the school’s business programs). Many public colleges and universities all over the country are now offering ALL the credits for a Master’s in Accounting (incl subspecialties) for the same price as undergrad credits PROVIDED the degree candidate walks at graduation only ONCE and stays at the same school and works through BOTH programs diligently and full-time, either consecutively or concurrently, graduating in a timely manner.

NOT ALL Engineering grads make $100K immediately upon graduation. It completely depends on the graduate’s field of study, demand in that field in the locale they they’re applying for jobs in and the salary levels of that locale. In SD, I could see $65K as a more realistic starting pay for many recent engineering grads and I could see some types of engineering grads (civil eng?) possibly having to relocate out of SD to get any job at all in their fields.

I agree that an “Ivy degree” doesn’t really matter on the west coast in obtaining entry-level positions in almost all fields. I have no idea how much sway it holds for employers hiring for entry-level positions on the east coast. In any case, it’s probably not worth it to pay for ALL one’s college credits at an Ivy school. In paying only for graduate school at an Ivy school (if that’s what one aspires to do), this would have the same result out there in the “real world” because the ink on the diploma dries the same, IMO.[/quote]

I agree with you on accounting. I don’t know about starting salary of six figures, that is probably not the norm. But, my brother is the CFO for a large public company and he has nothing but B.S. degree from a non-elite public university. Another example is the CFO at Viasat, he has B.S. only from SDSU. These two folks are making the kind of money that they could purchase FLUs dream car and no Masters degree required. MS degrees in many cases are waste of time, you are usually better off getting real world job experience. I think a lot of companies realize this because randomly searching through Bios of various large company Officers, I was surprised at how many of them listed BS degrees only (or no degrees at all).

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu][quote=deadzone]Sure Engineering may not be as lucrative as it once was, thanks to the overall threat of outsourcing/H1B. But, still beats the pants off of most professions for pay potential on average doesn’t it?[/quote]

Starting out, maybe. Over the life of the profession, most definitely not, unless again you hit it with the stock options/RSU grants.

I don’t see many single income earnings engineers without stock options able to afford to live in carmel valley, unless they are a dual income family.

I do see plenty of dentists, doctors, lawyers, self-employed business folks, or enigineers with side businesses or that dabbled into other non-engineering-job related things that supplemented their income though…

.Just saying.[/quote]

You are just frustrated that your neighbors can afford to drive better cars than you. But you need to step back and look at the big picture, you are better off than 99% of the world. Your thinking is typical of the American consumerism culture, always wanting/needing to have more material goods than your neighbor. You need to take a trip to some normal city in the Midwest or East Coast, it will make you feel better about your lot in life.

[Coronita]

[quote=deadzone][quote=bearishgurl][quote=deadzone]Okay, give me one example of a Tech company that is run by Ivy grads? I just picked two of the most important San Diego companies, not cherry picking.

Reality is getting an Ivy degree does not give you a leg up in any type of tech career. Certainly not if you want to live/work in Socal which everybody here obviously does.

Also FLU, you are the only person I have ever heard that complained about Engineering not being a well paid profession. Can you name another white collar profession that you can pull nearly six figure starting salary immediately after a 4 year degree from a lowly state school? Pharmacy is the only profession that pays better starting out, but usually that is a 5 year or more degree nowadays.

But no, you are not going to get rich being an Engineer or most any other profession. Most wealthy people are trust funders. A fortunate few get lucky with IPOs, real estate etc. but I don’t consider those careers.[/quote]

Deadzone, Accounting pays nearly $100K right out of the gate IF the student passed their CPA Exam and got their masters degree (which is one additional year [or less] over the Bachelor’s degree requirements, depending on curriculum of the school’s business programs). Many public colleges and universities all over the country are now offering ALL the credits for a Master’s in Accounting (incl subspecialties) for the same price as undergrad credits PROVIDED the degree candidate walks at graduation only ONCE and stays at the same school and works through BOTH programs diligently and full-time, either consecutively or concurrently, graduating in a timely manner.

NOT ALL Engineering grads make $100K immediately upon graduation. It completely depends on the graduate’s field of study, demand in that field in the locale they they’re applying for jobs in and the salary levels of that locale. In SD, I could see $65K as a more realistic starting pay for many recent engineering grads and I could see some types of engineering grads (civil eng?) possibly having to relocate out of SD to get any job at all in their fields.

I agree that an “Ivy degree” doesn’t really matter on the west coast in obtaining entry-level positions in almost all fields. I have no idea how much sway it holds for employers hiring for entry-level positions on the east coast. In any case, it’s probably not worth it to pay for ALL one’s college credits at an Ivy school. In paying only for graduate school at an Ivy school (if that’s what one aspires to do), this would have the same result out there in the “real world” because the ink on the diploma dries the same, IMO.[/quote]

I agree with you on accounting. I don’t know about starting salary of six figures, that is probably not the norm. But, my brother is the CFO for a large public company and he has nothing but B.S. degree from a non-elite public university. Another example is the CFO at Viasat, he has B.S. only from SDSU. These two folks are making the kind of money that they could purchase FLUs dream car and no Masters degree required. MS degrees in many cases are waste of time, you are usually better off getting real world job experience. I think a lot of companies realize this because randomly searching through Bios of various large company Officers, I was surprised at how many of them listed BS degrees only (or no degrees at all).[/quote]

And I’ll make the argument that for every 1 person you think that fits that mold of “not needing XYZ”, there are probably 100+ or so people that would have been better off if they had more doors open.

It’s nice that your brother was able to find a path that didn’t require that much higher education and was in the right place at the right time and made the right decision. You would think that with his direction that he made, and since it was such a sure thing, then clearly you should be a CEO/CFO of a company right now too right? I mean, clearly the path to his success was so obvious, and since he is your brother, it should have been really easy to copy his success, right? And clearly, we we wouldn’t be complaining about affordability of home is San Diego right now , right?

[Coronita]

[quote=deadzone][quote=flu][quote=deadzone]Sure Engineering may not be as lucrative as it once was, thanks to the overall threat of outsourcing/H1B. But, still beats the pants off of most professions for pay potential on average doesn’t it?[/quote]

Starting out, maybe. Over the life of the profession, most definitely not, unless again you hit it with the stock options/RSU grants.

I don’t see many single income earnings engineers without stock options able to afford to live in carmel valley, unless they are a dual income family.

I do see plenty of dentists, doctors, lawyers, self-employed business folks, or enigineers with side businesses or that dabbled into other non-engineering-job related things that supplemented their income though…

.Just saying.[/quote]

You are just frustrated that your neighbors can afford to drive better cars than you. But you need to step back and look at the big picture, you are better off than 99% of the world. Your thinking is typical of the American consumerism culture, always wanting/needing to have more material goods than your neighbor. You need to take a trip to some normal city in the Midwest or East Coast, it will make you feel better about your lot in life.[/quote]

Actually, I’m not frustrated at all. Actually, if I wanted to live how 75% of the american population lives, I could afford to drive what really wanted too…on borrowed money. But I do like having money in my bank account so if tomorrow I do get outsourced, It wouldn’t make a damn difference, except being able to qualify for another refinance probably, and more of a pride thing of holy shit, I finally got laid off after so many+ years working in the field…..lol… Then again, I can always wait for stated income loans to come back…ha!

My neighbors drive equally POS cars too for a differentreason. They have 3-4 kids they have to feed and send to college… So they can take their $40k/year per kid and multiply that by 4 and then multiply that by 3 or 4….I only got 1 …Ha!

[Anonymous]

The CFO of Maxwell Technologies also has B.S. (no masters) from SDSU. Seems to me that if you want to get a business management position for a San Diego company, B.S degree from SDSU is a great value. Apparently these local tech companies don’t place much value on Ivy league or Masters degrees in general.

[bearishgurl]

Deadzone, my youngest is currently an undergrad Bus Admin/Acct major at a CSU and the Bus Dept is coaching all the students in this program to combine it with a Masters specialty or at the very least, combine it with one other (of the 8 available CSU business fields) to be the most competitive in the job market after graduation. A second field (minor) for a Bachelor of Science degree in Bus Admin involves taking only 7-11 additional units (which could be taken in the summer).

During the Masters (5th) year in Acct, the CSU degree candidate buys the (deeply discounted thru the school) study material for the state CPA exam and the bus dept offers workshops on preparing the Master’s candidate to take the exam.

The CSU has become very “occupational” in its priorities and programs offered to bachelor candidates and fluid in their course offerings as to the changing job market. I believe they are truly endeavoring to graduate as many students as possible in four years (or five with an occupational specialty). Gone are the days in the CSU admitting HS students who are not ready to do college-level work and allowing too many undergrads into programs where the program’s advisors cannot adequately monitor the progress of its students.

Hence, the swift “impaction” you see in most of the CSU’s occupational majors, varying by campus. As failing and/or withdrawing undergrads are weeded out of the programs every semester/quarter, spaces open for those qualified undergrads who are waitlisted to enter the program.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu][quote=AN][quote=flu]Off the top of my head…

Reddit (Yale)
LinkedIn (UPenn Wharton)
Google(Ok, it’s Stanford but close enough)
Yelp(Harvard)
Yahoo and beloved Marissa(Stanford)
HP (Meg is Princeton and Harvard)
eBay: Stanford
Juniper Networks: Stanford
Tesla: UPenn (Musk is a Wharton Alumni and was undergrad in physics)
Amazon (Princeton)
Apple (Duke. It’s not ivy, but elitist enough :))

I’m sure there’s many more I missed, even the startup ones that aren’t well known. I guess we can argue now what is considered tech and what is considered not tech.[/quote]
Base on that list, I say, go to Stanford, not Ivy :-P.[/quote]

Stanford is harder to get in 🙂 At least if you do get in, tuition is free if your household income is less than $150k. In the bay area, I did run into a bunch of Stanford grads, and they were pretty capable. The school runs like an incubator[/quote]

Well, and, uhhh, I hear freshman at Stanford are closely monitored and not allowed to have cars or offered parking spaces. My understanding is that they are restricted somewhat in even leaving campus without an “escort,” at least for the first quarter. Any Piggs correct me where I’m wrong here.

[Coronita]

[quote=deadzone]The CFO of Maxwell Technologies also has B.S. (no masters) from SDSU. Seems to me that if you want to get a business management position for a San Diego company, B.S degree from SDSU is a great value. Apparently these local tech companies don’t place much value on Ivy league or Masters degrees in general.[/quote]

Sure, if you say so. Whatever, I’m not a CFO/CEO and no longer aspire to be. My time has come and past. If you are and aspire to be, great. Enjoy…

I care more about finding more rental properties these days to generate more passive income than I care about being a better engineer/architect/lead (whatever fancy title an employer gives me). Show me the money, and that’s all that matters. You know, in case my kid can get in and does want to go and it’s a right fit. And if my kid doesn’t get in and doesn’t want to go, more money leftover for me and my kid. Either way.

[Coronita]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=flu][quote=AN][quote=flu]Off the top of my head…

Reddit (Yale)
LinkedIn (UPenn Wharton)
Google(Ok, it’s Stanford but close enough)
Yelp(Harvard)
Yahoo and beloved Marissa(Stanford)
HP (Meg is Princeton and Harvard)
eBay: Stanford
Juniper Networks: Stanford
Tesla: UPenn (Musk is a Wharton Alumni and was undergrad in physics)
Amazon (Princeton)
Apple (Duke. It’s not ivy, but elitist enough :))

I’m sure there’s many more I missed, even the startup ones that aren’t well known. I guess we can argue now what is considered tech and what is considered not tech.[/quote]
Base on that list, I say, go to Stanford, not Ivy :-P.[/quote]

Stanford is harder to get in 🙂 At least if you do get in, tuition is free if your household income is less than $150k. In the bay area, I did run into a bunch of Stanford grads, and they were pretty capable. The school runs like an incubator[/quote]

Well, and, uhhh, I hear freshman at Stanford are closely monitored and not allowed to have cars or offered parking spaces. My understanding is that they are restricted somewhat in even leaving campus without an “escort,” at least for the first quarter. Any Piggs correct me where I’m wrong here.[/quote]

Don’t know, don’t care, though I would find it unbelievable. Lunch time!

[Author]

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