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markmax33.
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November 3, 2011 at 10:17 AM #19266November 3, 2011 at 10:50 AM #732144
Allan from Fallbrook
ParticipantMark: You can’t really blame the Fed here, since this shit has been going on since the beginning of this great republic.
Starting with the Declaration of Independence and running through the Louisiana Purchase, the Civil War, Manifest Destiny and Gunboat Diplomacy, the USA has always been a going concern. “America’s business IS business”, and trade follows the flag. Its been true since the days of the Roman Empire and someone has to finance the conquests.
What did William Randolph Hearst say? “You supply the pictures and I’ll supply the war”. That was in 1898, right before the outbreak of the Spanish – American War (and 15 years before the creation of the Fed). That was also America’s entry into the world of colonialism/neo-colonialism and the need for financing these various “dirty little wars”, from the Banana Wars to Vietnam to Afghanistan.
Evil? Nah. Amoral and immoral? Yup. But we’re in the business of resource extraction to fuel the Big Machine and that shit’s gotta come from somewhere, right? And whoever is sitting on it generally doesn’t want to give it up, so if we can’t buy it…
Send in the Marines.
November 3, 2011 at 11:25 AM #732147markmax33
Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Mark: You can’t really blame the Fed here, since this shit has been going on since the beginning of this great republic.
Starting with the Declaration of Independence and running through the Louisiana Purchase, the Civil War, Manifest Destiny and Gunboat Diplomacy, the USA has always been a going concern. “America’s business IS business”, and trade follows the flag. Its been true since the days of the Roman Empire and someone has to finance the conquests.
What did William Randolph Hearst say? “You supply the pictures and I’ll supply the war”. That was in 1898, right before the outbreak of the Spanish – American War (and 15 years before the creation of the Fed). That was also America’s entry into the world of colonialism/neo-colonialism and the need for financing these various “dirty little wars”, from the Banana Wars to Vietnam to Afghanistan.
Evil? Nah. Amoral and immoral? Yup. But we’re in the business of resource extraction to fuel the Big Machine and that shit’s gotta come from somewhere, right? And whoever is sitting on it generally doesn’t want to give it up, so if we can’t buy it…
Send in the Marines.[/quote]
You are correct since the beginning of time to run a war you need massive credit and the banks have been involved. Giving the FED the ulitmate power to print money and fund the endless war machine is 100% a step in the wrong direction. We gave them even more power than before we had a central bank. Why would we agree to centralize power to these 12 idiots and these families that have more than what they will ever need? It boggles my mind how we could NOT point fingers at them. Sure we would be in wars, but maybe they would be authorized by Congress if the tax payer actually had to pay for it at the time as was intended in the constitution. Now they look like nothing because they don’t have to raise taxes to fund them. You are slowly agreeing to be robbed blindly by inflation. Our sons and daughters are dying in wars that the American people don’t support.
November 3, 2011 at 11:50 AM #732150scaredyclassic
ParticipantWhy can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?
November 3, 2011 at 12:32 PM #732154KSMountain
ParticipantJefferson warned of “foreign entanglements”.
Eisenhower warned of the “military industrial complex”.This is not new.
Here’s an exercise which I’ve done recently: bring up google maps and scroll out to a regional view. Surf around our globe and ask yourself if there is tension or unrest or outright war in the area your mouse happens to be over.
If you are well-informed you will find that there is tension almost everywhere. Conflict seems to be the norm; tranquility and living harmoniously with one’s neighbors the exception.
I think it is good to keep in mind that nice as it would be, we are pretty far from the world of John Lennon’s song.
November 3, 2011 at 12:44 PM #732158briansd1
Guest[quote=walterwhite]Why can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?[/quote]
Because we live in a post colonial world and international laws have changed.
I think that the world would be a better place if the great powers kept out of smaller countries and stopped fighting proxy wars.
For all the talks of arms bans, all the war equipment comes from the developed producing countries. Without guns, there can be no wars.
Iraq and Afghanistan were American wars of choice. Sad to say but we got what we deserved.
November 3, 2011 at 12:54 PM #732160Participant[quote=walterwhite]Why can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?[/quote]
Scaredy: You’re kidding, right? War is HUGE business and immensely profitable.
And the USA happens to be very good at it.
A Special Forces guy I knew had a business card from his service days that read: Our business is killing and business is good.
November 3, 2011 at 1:02 PM #732161Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=walterwhite]Why can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?[/quote]
Scaredy: You’re kidding, right? War is HUGE business and immensely profitable.
And the USA happens to be very good at it.
A Special Forces guy I knew had a business card from his service days that read: Our business is killing and business is good.[/quote]
Profitable for the corporations and the military industrial complex. Even profitable for the fighters who have jobs.
But profitable for the whole country? I don’t think so. Unless the war results in a large market for our products and ideas. WWII was very profitable by that standard.
November 3, 2011 at 1:11 PM #732162Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=walterwhite]Why can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?[/quote]
Scaredy: You’re kidding, right? War is HUGE business and immensely profitable.
And the USA happens to be very good at it.
A Special Forces guy I knew had a business card from his service days that read: Our business is killing and business is good.[/quote]
Profitable for the corporations and the military industrial complex. Even profitable for the fighters who have jobs.
But profitable for the whole country? I don’t think so. Unless the war results in a large market for our products and ideas. WWII was very profitable by that standard.[/quote]
Brian: Do me a favor and walk down to your car. I’m presuming you own a good, reliable car, right? Something fairly new? If your option package contains satellite radio, navigation, or something really whiz-bang like the new thermal imaging found in the Audis, where do you think that technology came from?
These are all products of military R&D that has migrated into the commercial sector. Silicon Valley was built on Department of Defense and DARPA money; shit, huge sums still run through there (though not nearly as much as during the Cold War days).
November 3, 2011 at 1:18 PM #732164Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=walterwhite]Why can’t we turn a decent profit on a war anymore?[/quote]
Scaredy: You’re kidding, right? War is HUGE business and immensely profitable.
And the USA happens to be very good at it.
A Special Forces guy I knew had a business card from his service days that read: Our business is killing and business is good.[/quote]
Profitable for the corporations and the military industrial complex. Even profitable for the fighters who have jobs.
But profitable for the whole country? I don’t think so. Unless the war results in a large market for our products and ideas. WWII was very profitable by that standard.[/quote]
Brian: Do me a favor and walk down to your car. I’m presuming you own a good, reliable car, right? Something fairly new? If your option package contains satellite radio, navigation, or something really whiz-bang like the new thermal imaging found in the Audis, where do you think that technology came from?
These are all products of military R&D that has migrated into the commercial sector. Silicon Valley was built on Department of Defense and DARPA money; shit, huge sums still run through there (though not nearly as much as during the Cold War days).[/quote]
Riiiiiiight, but just because those technologies were from the Military Industrial Complex that doesn’t mean they were developed efficiently. It doesn’t mean that the money spent on them couldn’t have been spent in the market to come up with some new safety invention that would lead to no deaths in vehicles or something much more awesome. You can’t imply that just because you have some technologies from there the money was well spent. Imagine how many wasted technologies they are spending money on!
November 3, 2011 at 1:23 PM #732165ParticipantMark: You’re preaching to the converted, Bubba. I never said that these technologies were developed efficiently, I just said that they were developed.
I have posted numerous times on various threads that Uncle Sugar should NOT be in the business of picking winners and losers, but rather should focus spending on R&D programs and then let the market drive the winners.
November 3, 2011 at 1:25 PM #732166Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
These are all products of military R&D that has migrated into the commercial sector. Silicon Valley was built on Department of Defense and DARPA money; shit, huge sums still run through there (though not nearly as much as during the Cold War days).[/quote]Sure, but does innovation have to be the exclusive domain of the military?
We would invest in space exploration, climate and energy research or other tech that would result in similar discoveries.
The reason the military works is because politicians can wave the flag and fan nationalist sentiments to pass huge spending budgets.
No matter how the military could be profitable for one side, the collateral damage is millions of dead people. Add the deaths and destruction to the equation and there is net loss to humanity.
If America is truly exceptional as we claim we are, we can be better than that.
November 3, 2011 at 1:30 PM #732168Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Mark: You’re preaching to the converted, Bubba. I never said that these technologies were developed efficiently, I just said that they were developed.
I have posted numerous times on various threads that Uncle Sugar should NOT be in the business of picking winners and losers, but rather should focus spending on R&D programs and then let the market drive the winners.[/quote]
Sorry bro!
-Ron Paul 2012!
November 3, 2011 at 2:15 PM #732171ParticipantWe make the money selling arms, right? But why can’t we just take countries nowadays?
November 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM #732175Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
These are all products of military R&D that has migrated into the commercial sector. Silicon Valley was built on Department of Defense and DARPA money; shit, huge sums still run through there (though not nearly as much as during the Cold War days).[/quote]Sure, but does innovation have to be the exclusive domain of the military?
We would invest in space exploration, climate and energy research or other tech that would result in similar discoveries.
The reason the military works is because politicians can wave the flag and fan nationalist sentiments to pass huge spending budgets.
No matter how the military could be profitable for one side, the collateral damage is millions of dead people. Add the deaths and destruction to the equation and there is net loss to humanity.
If America is truly exceptional as we claim we are, we can be better than that.[/quote]
Brian: You’re going to have to show me where I said that innovation is the exclusive domain of the military. I never said that, and I don’t feel that way.
I do believe that we need to cut entitlement spending AND defense spending, along with reforming the tax code. Any serious discussion about America’s fiscal health and well-being needs to start by addressing the biggest outlays in the budget. And, yeah, wars are godawful expensive and extract a horrific toll. I am not advocating for war. To the contrary, that’s not an experience I would wish on anybody.
I would also agree that those R&D dollars can be more effectively deployed elsewhere, and that America is better than that. If we wish to be viewed as a beacon for the world, that “shining city on a hill”, we need to return to our core values and principles.
Speaking of principles, Brian, please don’t ever juxtapose the word “principles” with a Chicago politician (Rahm). Dude, that’s just wrong.
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