Bailout for Dummies – Part I

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Jp: Dave and I wrote about the complexities inherent to both these large market companies (like Citi and AIG) and the products they offer.

I’m not making excuses, but I’m willing to bet good money that AIG’s CEO didn’t have a clue as to how AIGFP’s products worked, other than that division was making piles of money. Further, he was reassured by all of his analysts, and the rating companies that the products were safe and low risk. Not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth and not wanting to risk upending that cash register, he motored happily along with everyone else until AIG went into the ditch.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] He’s also a reformed Stalinist who is pretty conservative now.

[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons I really like Hitchens. Because he’s gone from one extreme to the other (well, almost the other – I think he classifies himself as a quasi-libertarian). And it’s been a very public, well-chronicled shift.

And I’ve made the same shift, so I can empathize. I was a quasi-socialist in college then became a mindless libertarian, and now I’m more of a very small-l libertarian, but with a penchant for pragmatism.

Actually, Taleb’s first book pulled me toward the center most recently, as I think he did a very good job of illustrating in clear prose the role of luck and randomness in success and society, and how we humans are wired to underappreciate this. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Reagan’s observation that, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” But, pure luck – the kind that’s purely random – also plays a larger role than most of us would like to admit.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] He’s also a reformed Stalinist who is pretty conservative now.

[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons I really like Hitchens. Because he’s gone from one extreme to the other (well, almost the other – I think he classifies himself as a quasi-libertarian). And it’s been a very public, well-chronicled shift.

And I’ve made the same shift, so I can empathize. I was a quasi-socialist in college then became a mindless libertarian, and now I’m more of a very small-l libertarian, but with a penchant for pragmatism.

Actually, Taleb’s first book pulled me toward the center most recently, as I think he did a very good job of illustrating in clear prose the role of luck and randomness in success and society, and how we humans are wired to underappreciate this. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Reagan’s observation that, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” But, pure luck – the kind that’s purely random – also plays a larger role than most of us would like to admit.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] He’s also a reformed Stalinist who is pretty conservative now.

[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons I really like Hitchens. Because he’s gone from one extreme to the other (well, almost the other – I think he classifies himself as a quasi-libertarian). And it’s been a very public, well-chronicled shift.

And I’ve made the same shift, so I can empathize. I was a quasi-socialist in college then became a mindless libertarian, and now I’m more of a very small-l libertarian, but with a penchant for pragmatism.

Actually, Taleb’s first book pulled me toward the center most recently, as I think he did a very good job of illustrating in clear prose the role of luck and randomness in success and society, and how we humans are wired to underappreciate this. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Reagan’s observation that, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” But, pure luck – the kind that’s purely random – also plays a larger role than most of us would like to admit.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] He’s also a reformed Stalinist who is pretty conservative now.

[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons I really like Hitchens. Because he’s gone from one extreme to the other (well, almost the other – I think he classifies himself as a quasi-libertarian). And it’s been a very public, well-chronicled shift.

And I’ve made the same shift, so I can empathize. I was a quasi-socialist in college then became a mindless libertarian, and now I’m more of a very small-l libertarian, but with a penchant for pragmatism.

Actually, Taleb’s first book pulled me toward the center most recently, as I think he did a very good job of illustrating in clear prose the role of luck and randomness in success and society, and how we humans are wired to underappreciate this. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Reagan’s observation that, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” But, pure luck – the kind that’s purely random – also plays a larger role than most of us would like to admit.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] He’s also a reformed Stalinist who is pretty conservative now.

[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons I really like Hitchens. Because he’s gone from one extreme to the other (well, almost the other – I think he classifies himself as a quasi-libertarian). And it’s been a very public, well-chronicled shift.

And I’ve made the same shift, so I can empathize. I was a quasi-socialist in college then became a mindless libertarian, and now I’m more of a very small-l libertarian, but with a penchant for pragmatism.

Actually, Taleb’s first book pulled me toward the center most recently, as I think he did a very good job of illustrating in clear prose the role of luck and randomness in success and society, and how we humans are wired to underappreciate this. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Reagan’s observation that, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” But, pure luck – the kind that’s purely random – also plays a larger role than most of us would like to admit.

[Coronita]

[quote=jpinpb]Wow! That was one hell of a resignation letter!

Edit – One of the posted comments on that link:

“So, basically everything collapsed due to a lack of oversight of one division. I’m sorry, but everyone – every executive above that division should have been aware of what was going on. Mr. DeSantis is far too willing to absolve himself and Mr. Liddy of any responsibility: “You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am.” No way – if your co-workers or underlings are dismantling the company, you best be aware of it.

Another comment:

“Mr. De Santis,
You forgot to mention a little detail: AIG didn’t pay your $700,000 bonus. We taxpayers did. You may feel relieved and honorable in donating that money to charity, but that’s my money you’re giving away, and that is one more transaction of yours (and your company’s) that I did not approve. In fact, I’d rather have my money going to save the US economy than to some other cause of your choosing.”

Secondly, why does Mr. DeSantis believe that his company, on the brink of collapse, is healthy enough to pay ANYONE at all a bonus? “The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation.” HA! No matter how profitible the “businesses with which [he] was associated” were, he was overcompensated. Everyone on Wall Street was/is. I mean, why were these contracts even in existence? A bonus is something special – not something routine. You can’t predict where a company will be or what employees will do in 6 months, so how did such contracts ever get drawn up? It boggles the mind!”[/quote]

Jpinpb,

If someone asked you to do a job, and says I’ll pay you $1million for it (provided it’s legal). Would you turn it down?

Bonus, in several professions, are “guarenteed”. Aka they are often called retention bonuses or incentive bonuses written in contract. Even in engineering/software firms.

As far as “why” they were paid to begin with. Well, imho

1) first that’s a question for Tim Geither and Libby, not the employees/

2) Back to why I think the SEC can’t find top talent. If you have a meltdown, and you need someone who can understand how to unwind things, well guess what…Show me the money.

It’s no different from the CA treasury paying Cobol programers $150+/hr because Cobol is such an outdated language no one knows it anymore, and that CA was so dumb it never updated the treasury data systems.

Or for FEMA hireing the ex FEMA director for consulting services despite botching his original job.

Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

Unfortunately for Mr. Santis, he will never be vindicated. Because if AIG does fvck up, everyone loses. So it’s not in anyone’s interest for AIG to fvckup more.

Geither is up a creek. On one hand, he knows about the public outrage about these bonus. On the other hand, he’s not going to be able to find people capable of doing these complex unwinds if he doesn’t pay these people to do it and if he let’s people get humiliated like this. So Act 2 will be “hire a bunch of overseas tier 4-5 workers and pretend to do it right”….Besides, with the U.S. system, there is no accountability in the decisions after 4 years (election), 8 if your prez is able to get reelected. That’s another problem. See if our elected officials had nearly as much accountability after they leave office, poor short sighted decisions wouldn’t nearly be as rampant

Geither knows this. I’m not surprised he’s not willing to disclose tarp payouts and bonus payouts. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Geither sent some of it overseas just so we would have our steady stream of loans to the government.

[Coronita]

[quote=jpinpb]Wow! That was one hell of a resignation letter!

Edit – One of the posted comments on that link:

“So, basically everything collapsed due to a lack of oversight of one division. I’m sorry, but everyone – every executive above that division should have been aware of what was going on. Mr. DeSantis is far too willing to absolve himself and Mr. Liddy of any responsibility: “You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am.” No way – if your co-workers or underlings are dismantling the company, you best be aware of it.

Another comment:

“Mr. De Santis,
You forgot to mention a little detail: AIG didn’t pay your $700,000 bonus. We taxpayers did. You may feel relieved and honorable in donating that money to charity, but that’s my money you’re giving away, and that is one more transaction of yours (and your company’s) that I did not approve. In fact, I’d rather have my money going to save the US economy than to some other cause of your choosing.”

Secondly, why does Mr. DeSantis believe that his company, on the brink of collapse, is healthy enough to pay ANYONE at all a bonus? “The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation.” HA! No matter how profitible the “businesses with which [he] was associated” were, he was overcompensated. Everyone on Wall Street was/is. I mean, why were these contracts even in existence? A bonus is something special – not something routine. You can’t predict where a company will be or what employees will do in 6 months, so how did such contracts ever get drawn up? It boggles the mind!”[/quote]

Jpinpb,

If someone asked you to do a job, and says I’ll pay you $1million for it (provided it’s legal). Would you turn it down?

Bonus, in several professions, are “guarenteed”. Aka they are often called retention bonuses or incentive bonuses written in contract. Even in engineering/software firms.

As far as “why” they were paid to begin with. Well, imho

1) first that’s a question for Tim Geither and Libby, not the employees/

2) Back to why I think the SEC can’t find top talent. If you have a meltdown, and you need someone who can understand how to unwind things, well guess what…Show me the money.

It’s no different from the CA treasury paying Cobol programers $150+/hr because Cobol is such an outdated language no one knows it anymore, and that CA was so dumb it never updated the treasury data systems.

Or for FEMA hireing the ex FEMA director for consulting services despite botching his original job.

Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

Unfortunately for Mr. Santis, he will never be vindicated. Because if AIG does fvck up, everyone loses. So it’s not in anyone’s interest for AIG to fvckup more.

Geither is up a creek. On one hand, he knows about the public outrage about these bonus. On the other hand, he’s not going to be able to find people capable of doing these complex unwinds if he doesn’t pay these people to do it and if he let’s people get humiliated like this. So Act 2 will be “hire a bunch of overseas tier 4-5 workers and pretend to do it right”….Besides, with the U.S. system, there is no accountability in the decisions after 4 years (election), 8 if your prez is able to get reelected. That’s another problem. See if our elected officials had nearly as much accountability after they leave office, poor short sighted decisions wouldn’t nearly be as rampant

Geither knows this. I’m not surprised he’s not willing to disclose tarp payouts and bonus payouts. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Geither sent some of it overseas just so we would have our steady stream of loans to the government.

[Coronita]

[quote=jpinpb]Wow! That was one hell of a resignation letter!

Edit – One of the posted comments on that link:

“So, basically everything collapsed due to a lack of oversight of one division. I’m sorry, but everyone – every executive above that division should have been aware of what was going on. Mr. DeSantis is far too willing to absolve himself and Mr. Liddy of any responsibility: “You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am.” No way – if your co-workers or underlings are dismantling the company, you best be aware of it.

Another comment:

“Mr. De Santis,
You forgot to mention a little detail: AIG didn’t pay your $700,000 bonus. We taxpayers did. You may feel relieved and honorable in donating that money to charity, but that’s my money you’re giving away, and that is one more transaction of yours (and your company’s) that I did not approve. In fact, I’d rather have my money going to save the US economy than to some other cause of your choosing.”

Secondly, why does Mr. DeSantis believe that his company, on the brink of collapse, is healthy enough to pay ANYONE at all a bonus? “The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation.” HA! No matter how profitible the “businesses with which [he] was associated” were, he was overcompensated. Everyone on Wall Street was/is. I mean, why were these contracts even in existence? A bonus is something special – not something routine. You can’t predict where a company will be or what employees will do in 6 months, so how did such contracts ever get drawn up? It boggles the mind!”[/quote]

Jpinpb,

If someone asked you to do a job, and says I’ll pay you $1million for it (provided it’s legal). Would you turn it down?

Bonus, in several professions, are “guarenteed”. Aka they are often called retention bonuses or incentive bonuses written in contract. Even in engineering/software firms.

As far as “why” they were paid to begin with. Well, imho

1) first that’s a question for Tim Geither and Libby, not the employees/

2) Back to why I think the SEC can’t find top talent. If you have a meltdown, and you need someone who can understand how to unwind things, well guess what…Show me the money.

It’s no different from the CA treasury paying Cobol programers $150+/hr because Cobol is such an outdated language no one knows it anymore, and that CA was so dumb it never updated the treasury data systems.

Or for FEMA hireing the ex FEMA director for consulting services despite botching his original job.

Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

Unfortunately for Mr. Santis, he will never be vindicated. Because if AIG does fvck up, everyone loses. So it’s not in anyone’s interest for AIG to fvckup more.

Geither is up a creek. On one hand, he knows about the public outrage about these bonus. On the other hand, he’s not going to be able to find people capable of doing these complex unwinds if he doesn’t pay these people to do it and if he let’s people get humiliated like this. So Act 2 will be “hire a bunch of overseas tier 4-5 workers and pretend to do it right”….Besides, with the U.S. system, there is no accountability in the decisions after 4 years (election), 8 if your prez is able to get reelected. That’s another problem. See if our elected officials had nearly as much accountability after they leave office, poor short sighted decisions wouldn’t nearly be as rampant

Geither knows this. I’m not surprised he’s not willing to disclose tarp payouts and bonus payouts. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Geither sent some of it overseas just so we would have our steady stream of loans to the government.

[Coronita]

[quote=jpinpb]Wow! That was one hell of a resignation letter!

Edit – One of the posted comments on that link:

“So, basically everything collapsed due to a lack of oversight of one division. I’m sorry, but everyone – every executive above that division should have been aware of what was going on. Mr. DeSantis is far too willing to absolve himself and Mr. Liddy of any responsibility: “You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am.” No way – if your co-workers or underlings are dismantling the company, you best be aware of it.

Another comment:

“Mr. De Santis,
You forgot to mention a little detail: AIG didn’t pay your $700,000 bonus. We taxpayers did. You may feel relieved and honorable in donating that money to charity, but that’s my money you’re giving away, and that is one more transaction of yours (and your company’s) that I did not approve. In fact, I’d rather have my money going to save the US economy than to some other cause of your choosing.”

Secondly, why does Mr. DeSantis believe that his company, on the brink of collapse, is healthy enough to pay ANYONE at all a bonus? “The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation.” HA! No matter how profitible the “businesses with which [he] was associated” were, he was overcompensated. Everyone on Wall Street was/is. I mean, why were these contracts even in existence? A bonus is something special – not something routine. You can’t predict where a company will be or what employees will do in 6 months, so how did such contracts ever get drawn up? It boggles the mind!”[/quote]

Jpinpb,

If someone asked you to do a job, and says I’ll pay you $1million for it (provided it’s legal). Would you turn it down?

Bonus, in several professions, are “guarenteed”. Aka they are often called retention bonuses or incentive bonuses written in contract. Even in engineering/software firms.

As far as “why” they were paid to begin with. Well, imho

1) first that’s a question for Tim Geither and Libby, not the employees/

2) Back to why I think the SEC can’t find top talent. If you have a meltdown, and you need someone who can understand how to unwind things, well guess what…Show me the money.

It’s no different from the CA treasury paying Cobol programers $150+/hr because Cobol is such an outdated language no one knows it anymore, and that CA was so dumb it never updated the treasury data systems.

Or for FEMA hireing the ex FEMA director for consulting services despite botching his original job.

Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

Unfortunately for Mr. Santis, he will never be vindicated. Because if AIG does fvck up, everyone loses. So it’s not in anyone’s interest for AIG to fvckup more.

Geither is up a creek. On one hand, he knows about the public outrage about these bonus. On the other hand, he’s not going to be able to find people capable of doing these complex unwinds if he doesn’t pay these people to do it and if he let’s people get humiliated like this. So Act 2 will be “hire a bunch of overseas tier 4-5 workers and pretend to do it right”….Besides, with the U.S. system, there is no accountability in the decisions after 4 years (election), 8 if your prez is able to get reelected. That’s another problem. See if our elected officials had nearly as much accountability after they leave office, poor short sighted decisions wouldn’t nearly be as rampant

Geither knows this. I’m not surprised he’s not willing to disclose tarp payouts and bonus payouts. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Geither sent some of it overseas just so we would have our steady stream of loans to the government.

[Coronita]

[quote=jpinpb]Wow! That was one hell of a resignation letter!

Edit – One of the posted comments on that link:

“So, basically everything collapsed due to a lack of oversight of one division. I’m sorry, but everyone – every executive above that division should have been aware of what was going on. Mr. DeSantis is far too willing to absolve himself and Mr. Liddy of any responsibility: “You are as blameless for these credit default swap losses as I am.” No way – if your co-workers or underlings are dismantling the company, you best be aware of it.

Another comment:

“Mr. De Santis,
You forgot to mention a little detail: AIG didn’t pay your $700,000 bonus. We taxpayers did. You may feel relieved and honorable in donating that money to charity, but that’s my money you’re giving away, and that is one more transaction of yours (and your company’s) that I did not approve. In fact, I’d rather have my money going to save the US economy than to some other cause of your choosing.”

Secondly, why does Mr. DeSantis believe that his company, on the brink of collapse, is healthy enough to pay ANYONE at all a bonus? “The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation.” HA! No matter how profitible the “businesses with which [he] was associated” were, he was overcompensated. Everyone on Wall Street was/is. I mean, why were these contracts even in existence? A bonus is something special – not something routine. You can’t predict where a company will be or what employees will do in 6 months, so how did such contracts ever get drawn up? It boggles the mind!”[/quote]

Jpinpb,

If someone asked you to do a job, and says I’ll pay you $1million for it (provided it’s legal). Would you turn it down?

Bonus, in several professions, are “guarenteed”. Aka they are often called retention bonuses or incentive bonuses written in contract. Even in engineering/software firms.

As far as “why” they were paid to begin with. Well, imho

1) first that’s a question for Tim Geither and Libby, not the employees/

2) Back to why I think the SEC can’t find top talent. If you have a meltdown, and you need someone who can understand how to unwind things, well guess what…Show me the money.

It’s no different from the CA treasury paying Cobol programers $150+/hr because Cobol is such an outdated language no one knows it anymore, and that CA was so dumb it never updated the treasury data systems.

Or for FEMA hireing the ex FEMA director for consulting services despite botching his original job.

Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

Unfortunately for Mr. Santis, he will never be vindicated. Because if AIG does fvck up, everyone loses. So it’s not in anyone’s interest for AIG to fvckup more.

Geither is up a creek. On one hand, he knows about the public outrage about these bonus. On the other hand, he’s not going to be able to find people capable of doing these complex unwinds if he doesn’t pay these people to do it and if he let’s people get humiliated like this. So Act 2 will be “hire a bunch of overseas tier 4-5 workers and pretend to do it right”….Besides, with the U.S. system, there is no accountability in the decisions after 4 years (election), 8 if your prez is able to get reelected. That’s another problem. See if our elected officials had nearly as much accountability after they leave office, poor short sighted decisions wouldn’t nearly be as rampant

Geither knows this. I’m not surprised he’s not willing to disclose tarp payouts and bonus payouts. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Geither sent some of it overseas just so we would have our steady stream of loans to the government.

[davelj]

[quote=flu][quote=jpinpb]
Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

[/quote]

I agree with your message here. But it is counterbalanced by de Gaulle’s observation that, “The graveyards are filled with indispensable men.” At the end of the day, everyone’s dispensable. Even Rambo, despite the fact that the hot asian chick told him in Rambo II, “Rambo, you not indispensable.” And then she got shot by the Russian guy that looks like he could be Rutger Hauer’s brother. But I digress.

[davelj]

[quote=flu][quote=jpinpb]
Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

[/quote]

I agree with your message here. But it is counterbalanced by de Gaulle’s observation that, “The graveyards are filled with indispensable men.” At the end of the day, everyone’s dispensable. Even Rambo, despite the fact that the hot asian chick told him in Rambo II, “Rambo, you not indispensable.” And then she got shot by the Russian guy that looks like he could be Rutger Hauer’s brother. But I digress.

[davelj]

[quote=flu][quote=jpinpb]
Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

[/quote]

I agree with your message here. But it is counterbalanced by de Gaulle’s observation that, “The graveyards are filled with indispensable men.” At the end of the day, everyone’s dispensable. Even Rambo, despite the fact that the hot asian chick told him in Rambo II, “Rambo, you not indispensable.” And then she got shot by the Russian guy that looks like he could be Rutger Hauer’s brother. But I digress.

[davelj]

[quote=flu][quote=jpinpb]
Simple supply and demand. Skills in need command top dollar, regardless of how “stupid” those skills might be (stupidity of skill is irrelevant).

I doubt AIG can hire me, you or Breezie to undo those contracts.

[/quote]

I agree with your message here. But it is counterbalanced by de Gaulle’s observation that, “The graveyards are filled with indispensable men.” At the end of the day, everyone’s dispensable. Even Rambo, despite the fact that the hot asian chick told him in Rambo II, “Rambo, you not indispensable.” And then she got shot by the Russian guy that looks like he could be Rutger Hauer’s brother. But I digress.

[Author]

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