Backdoor to socialized medicine?

[Hobie]

[quote=SK in CV]
Chances are about 95% that you’re paying lower taxes now than you did under the previous administration.[/quote]

We may see a $400-$800 reduction in fed tax but the elephant in the room is the new trillion dollars in new spending.

Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture.

We can’t just keep printing $$ to cover this spending. It will have to be paid at some point in time.

Let’s talk about this same question after Jan 1 when the Bush tax cuts expire.

Remember, “Liberty, once lost, is lost forever”

[briansd1]

[quote=Hobie]
Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture. [/quote]

Hobie, you have to remember that tools that enable to us to front load, spend now and pay later are capitalist tools that were invented by capitalists.

For example, the credit card was a capitalist innovation, as is the credit card tied to home equity. That enabled millions of consumers to spend now and pay later, essentially selling their future freedom for instant gratification. Without those tools, people would be on a pay-go basis.

So perhaps “socialism” will do some good at restoring our freedom. 😉

[briansd1]

[quote=Hobie]
Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture. [/quote]

Hobie, you have to remember that tools that enable to us to front load, spend now and pay later are capitalist tools that were invented by capitalists.

For example, the credit card was a capitalist innovation, as is the credit card tied to home equity. That enabled millions of consumers to spend now and pay later, essentially selling their future freedom for instant gratification. Without those tools, people would be on a pay-go basis.

So perhaps “socialism” will do some good at restoring our freedom. 😉

[briansd1]

[quote=Hobie]
Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture. [/quote]

Hobie, you have to remember that tools that enable to us to front load, spend now and pay later are capitalist tools that were invented by capitalists.

For example, the credit card was a capitalist innovation, as is the credit card tied to home equity. That enabled millions of consumers to spend now and pay later, essentially selling their future freedom for instant gratification. Without those tools, people would be on a pay-go basis.

So perhaps “socialism” will do some good at restoring our freedom. 😉

[briansd1]

[quote=Hobie]
Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture. [/quote]

Hobie, you have to remember that tools that enable to us to front load, spend now and pay later are capitalist tools that were invented by capitalists.

For example, the credit card was a capitalist innovation, as is the credit card tied to home equity. That enabled millions of consumers to spend now and pay later, essentially selling their future freedom for instant gratification. Without those tools, people would be on a pay-go basis.

So perhaps “socialism” will do some good at restoring our freedom. 😉

[briansd1]

[quote=Hobie]
Like car salesmen they only want you to look at the monthly payment or short term window and not the big picture. [/quote]

Hobie, you have to remember that tools that enable to us to front load, spend now and pay later are capitalist tools that were invented by capitalists.

For example, the credit card was a capitalist innovation, as is the credit card tied to home equity. That enabled millions of consumers to spend now and pay later, essentially selling their future freedom for instant gratification. Without those tools, people would be on a pay-go basis.

So perhaps “socialism” will do some good at restoring our freedom. 😉

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: Whether you realize it or not, you’re doing it again. You accuse others on the site of engaging in rhetoric or hyperbole, and yet you do so as well.

To accuse everyone involved in the Tea Party movement of being some Palin-worshipping, gun-toting, Birther whacko is to engage in the same sort of broad brush tarring you deplore in the right wingers and neo-cons. The fact is, there are quite a lot of folks out there worried about the very points that Hobie brought up: How on earth are we going to afford another trillion dollars worth of spending in the condition we’re in right now?

And, no, don’t throw that CBO report at me. Both parties have been gaming CBO reports since Jesus was in short pants. If you want an interesting read, drag out the original CBO report on Medicare back in 1965.

Speaking of CBO reports: Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Director of the CBO, had an interesting OpEd in the NYT about the real cost of ObamaCare: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Its an interesting read, and his assertion is the report has been gamed, and there are significant worries regarding not only the health care bill, but also the overall fiscal health of the country in the coming decades.

You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: Whether you realize it or not, you’re doing it again. You accuse others on the site of engaging in rhetoric or hyperbole, and yet you do so as well.

To accuse everyone involved in the Tea Party movement of being some Palin-worshipping, gun-toting, Birther whacko is to engage in the same sort of broad brush tarring you deplore in the right wingers and neo-cons. The fact is, there are quite a lot of folks out there worried about the very points that Hobie brought up: How on earth are we going to afford another trillion dollars worth of spending in the condition we’re in right now?

And, no, don’t throw that CBO report at me. Both parties have been gaming CBO reports since Jesus was in short pants. If you want an interesting read, drag out the original CBO report on Medicare back in 1965.

Speaking of CBO reports: Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Director of the CBO, had an interesting OpEd in the NYT about the real cost of ObamaCare: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Its an interesting read, and his assertion is the report has been gamed, and there are significant worries regarding not only the health care bill, but also the overall fiscal health of the country in the coming decades.

You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: Whether you realize it or not, you’re doing it again. You accuse others on the site of engaging in rhetoric or hyperbole, and yet you do so as well.

To accuse everyone involved in the Tea Party movement of being some Palin-worshipping, gun-toting, Birther whacko is to engage in the same sort of broad brush tarring you deplore in the right wingers and neo-cons. The fact is, there are quite a lot of folks out there worried about the very points that Hobie brought up: How on earth are we going to afford another trillion dollars worth of spending in the condition we’re in right now?

And, no, don’t throw that CBO report at me. Both parties have been gaming CBO reports since Jesus was in short pants. If you want an interesting read, drag out the original CBO report on Medicare back in 1965.

Speaking of CBO reports: Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Director of the CBO, had an interesting OpEd in the NYT about the real cost of ObamaCare: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Its an interesting read, and his assertion is the report has been gamed, and there are significant worries regarding not only the health care bill, but also the overall fiscal health of the country in the coming decades.

You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: Whether you realize it or not, you’re doing it again. You accuse others on the site of engaging in rhetoric or hyperbole, and yet you do so as well.

To accuse everyone involved in the Tea Party movement of being some Palin-worshipping, gun-toting, Birther whacko is to engage in the same sort of broad brush tarring you deplore in the right wingers and neo-cons. The fact is, there are quite a lot of folks out there worried about the very points that Hobie brought up: How on earth are we going to afford another trillion dollars worth of spending in the condition we’re in right now?

And, no, don’t throw that CBO report at me. Both parties have been gaming CBO reports since Jesus was in short pants. If you want an interesting read, drag out the original CBO report on Medicare back in 1965.

Speaking of CBO reports: Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Director of the CBO, had an interesting OpEd in the NYT about the real cost of ObamaCare: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Its an interesting read, and his assertion is the report has been gamed, and there are significant worries regarding not only the health care bill, but also the overall fiscal health of the country in the coming decades.

You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: Whether you realize it or not, you’re doing it again. You accuse others on the site of engaging in rhetoric or hyperbole, and yet you do so as well.

To accuse everyone involved in the Tea Party movement of being some Palin-worshipping, gun-toting, Birther whacko is to engage in the same sort of broad brush tarring you deplore in the right wingers and neo-cons. The fact is, there are quite a lot of folks out there worried about the very points that Hobie brought up: How on earth are we going to afford another trillion dollars worth of spending in the condition we’re in right now?

And, no, don’t throw that CBO report at me. Both parties have been gaming CBO reports since Jesus was in short pants. If you want an interesting read, drag out the original CBO report on Medicare back in 1965.

Speaking of CBO reports: Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Director of the CBO, had an interesting OpEd in the NYT about the real cost of ObamaCare: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Its an interesting read, and his assertion is the report has been gamed, and there are significant worries regarding not only the health care bill, but also the overall fiscal health of the country in the coming decades.

You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.[/quote]

I actually agree.

I’ll be honest here and admit that my support for health care reform is two fold.

1/ I’m an Obama fan and I want my team to win. I don’t want him to lose because that would undermine his presidency.

Surely, as a sport fan, you can understand that. 😉

2/ I think that health care is a universal right and everybody should have it. As Kennedy said, it’s the unfinished business of our society.

As far a entitlement is concerned, I’m all for extending the retirement age, cutting farm subsidies, cutting government pensions (even forcing government employees to a 401k type retirement) etc…

I do agree with Tom Friedman that our government is broken. It’ll take time to fix it. But the solution is not to obstruct what is right.

My definition of broken is simple. It is a system in which Republicans will be voted out for doing the right thing (raising taxes when needed) and Democrats will be voted out for doing the right thing (cutting services when needed). When your political system punishes lawmakers for the doing the right things, it is broken. That is why we need political innovation that takes America’s disempowered radical center and enables it to act in proportion to its true size, unconstrained by the two parties, interest groups and orthodoxies that have tied our politics in knots.

The radical center is “radical” in its desire for a radical departure from politics as usual. It advocates: raising taxes to close our budgetary shortfalls, but doing so with a spirit of equity and social justice; guaranteeing that every American is covered by health insurance, but with market reforms to really bring down costs; legally expanding immigration to attract more job-creators to America’s shores; increasing corporate tax credits for research and lowering corporate taxes if companies will move more manufacturing jobs back onshore; investing more in our public schools, while insisting on rising national education standards and greater accountability for teachers, principals and parents; massively investing in clean energy, including nuclear, while allowing more offshore drilling in the transition. You get the idea.

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.[/quote]

I actually agree.

I’ll be honest here and admit that my support for health care reform is two fold.

1/ I’m an Obama fan and I want my team to win. I don’t want him to lose because that would undermine his presidency.

Surely, as a sport fan, you can understand that. 😉

2/ I think that health care is a universal right and everybody should have it. As Kennedy said, it’s the unfinished business of our society.

As far a entitlement is concerned, I’m all for extending the retirement age, cutting farm subsidies, cutting government pensions (even forcing government employees to a 401k type retirement) etc…

I do agree with Tom Friedman that our government is broken. It’ll take time to fix it. But the solution is not to obstruct what is right.

My definition of broken is simple. It is a system in which Republicans will be voted out for doing the right thing (raising taxes when needed) and Democrats will be voted out for doing the right thing (cutting services when needed). When your political system punishes lawmakers for the doing the right things, it is broken. That is why we need political innovation that takes America’s disempowered radical center and enables it to act in proportion to its true size, unconstrained by the two parties, interest groups and orthodoxies that have tied our politics in knots.

The radical center is “radical” in its desire for a radical departure from politics as usual. It advocates: raising taxes to close our budgetary shortfalls, but doing so with a spirit of equity and social justice; guaranteeing that every American is covered by health insurance, but with market reforms to really bring down costs; legally expanding immigration to attract more job-creators to America’s shores; increasing corporate tax credits for research and lowering corporate taxes if companies will move more manufacturing jobs back onshore; investing more in our public schools, while insisting on rising national education standards and greater accountability for teachers, principals and parents; massively investing in clean energy, including nuclear, while allowing more offshore drilling in the transition. You get the idea.

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.[/quote]

I actually agree.

I’ll be honest here and admit that my support for health care reform is two fold.

1/ I’m an Obama fan and I want my team to win. I don’t want him to lose because that would undermine his presidency.

Surely, as a sport fan, you can understand that. 😉

2/ I think that health care is a universal right and everybody should have it. As Kennedy said, it’s the unfinished business of our society.

As far a entitlement is concerned, I’m all for extending the retirement age, cutting farm subsidies, cutting government pensions (even forcing government employees to a 401k type retirement) etc…

I do agree with Tom Friedman that our government is broken. It’ll take time to fix it. But the solution is not to obstruct what is right.

My definition of broken is simple. It is a system in which Republicans will be voted out for doing the right thing (raising taxes when needed) and Democrats will be voted out for doing the right thing (cutting services when needed). When your political system punishes lawmakers for the doing the right things, it is broken. That is why we need political innovation that takes America’s disempowered radical center and enables it to act in proportion to its true size, unconstrained by the two parties, interest groups and orthodoxies that have tied our politics in knots.

The radical center is “radical” in its desire for a radical departure from politics as usual. It advocates: raising taxes to close our budgetary shortfalls, but doing so with a spirit of equity and social justice; guaranteeing that every American is covered by health insurance, but with market reforms to really bring down costs; legally expanding immigration to attract more job-creators to America’s shores; increasing corporate tax credits for research and lowering corporate taxes if companies will move more manufacturing jobs back onshore; investing more in our public schools, while insisting on rising national education standards and greater accountability for teachers, principals and parents; massively investing in clean energy, including nuclear, while allowing more offshore drilling in the transition. You get the idea.

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.[/quote]

I actually agree.

I’ll be honest here and admit that my support for health care reform is two fold.

1/ I’m an Obama fan and I want my team to win. I don’t want him to lose because that would undermine his presidency.

Surely, as a sport fan, you can understand that. 😉

2/ I think that health care is a universal right and everybody should have it. As Kennedy said, it’s the unfinished business of our society.

As far a entitlement is concerned, I’m all for extending the retirement age, cutting farm subsidies, cutting government pensions (even forcing government employees to a 401k type retirement) etc…

I do agree with Tom Friedman that our government is broken. It’ll take time to fix it. But the solution is not to obstruct what is right.

My definition of broken is simple. It is a system in which Republicans will be voted out for doing the right thing (raising taxes when needed) and Democrats will be voted out for doing the right thing (cutting services when needed). When your political system punishes lawmakers for the doing the right things, it is broken. That is why we need political innovation that takes America’s disempowered radical center and enables it to act in proportion to its true size, unconstrained by the two parties, interest groups and orthodoxies that have tied our politics in knots.

The radical center is “radical” in its desire for a radical departure from politics as usual. It advocates: raising taxes to close our budgetary shortfalls, but doing so with a spirit of equity and social justice; guaranteeing that every American is covered by health insurance, but with market reforms to really bring down costs; legally expanding immigration to attract more job-creators to America’s shores; increasing corporate tax credits for research and lowering corporate taxes if companies will move more manufacturing jobs back onshore; investing more in our public schools, while insisting on rising national education standards and greater accountability for teachers, principals and parents; massively investing in clean energy, including nuclear, while allowing more offshore drilling in the transition. You get the idea.

[Author]

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