[quote=CA renter][quote=zk]
[quote=CA renter]
Look at scaredy’s posts about his sons. That is what we see on a daily basis — the notion that females are “screwed up” and neurotic, and that boys need to be protected from that.
[/quote]
Put down your misogyny-tinted glasses and then read scaredy’s posts again. What scaredy said was that he was neurotic, and that he didn’t want to create another generation of neurotic men. What he said in reference to females was:
“Is this intrinsic to men or is the above description the result of the last generation of mothers screwing with their sons heads. “
And when he said “this,” he was referring to your description of what made a man a good friend to other men. And part of his point was that women can’t understand what makes a man a good friend to another man, and that they should stay out of the discussion. And that those moms (and maybe our culture) shouldn’t be trying to feminize men. Not because there’s anything wrong with women. But because there’s nothing wrong with men being men.[/quote]
[quote=zk]I mentioned your M.T.G., but my point was not dependent on them. I pointed out that you misread scaredy’s post (and that therefore your point was not valid).[/quote]
I wasn’t only referring to that one post; I was referring to the string of posts that expressed a desire to “defeminize” boys.
[/quote]
That doesn’t change the fact that you misread what he was saying. Take all of his posts about not wanting boys to be feminized, and they don’t add up to “females are ‘screwed up’ and neurotic, and that boys need to be protected from that.”
Here is just one of many:
[quote=scaredyclassic]Look, as a former, and some might say present, little male bitch, I am qualified to speak on this. Women are disqualified. Women weighing in here is like having the HR dept. actually legislate,reality in a workplace which they do not and cannot.
Mens’ play fighting and challenging is how we measure one another and how friendships form.
Feminizing language and male behavior is what we and my parents tried to do but it does not go well. Boys,will be boys,and that is what makes men.
I’m not saying there aren’t other ways to be men or manly just that this chatter is,well within mormal.
More than anything, fathers should want to raise sons,perceived as normal males by other male peers.
Women have no say in this matter, Just as men shouldn’t be allowed to dictate to to women how they work out their relative status and pecking order.[/quote]
Where in there does it say that “females are ‘screwed up’ and neurotic, and that boys need to be protected from that.” ?
[quote=CA renter]
Again, if women cannot speak about male behavior or how they perceive themselves in society, then men cannot speak about female behavior, or dictate to them what what they should perceive as sexist or misogynistic behavior.
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You say, “men cannot speak about female behavior, or dictate to them what what they should perceive as sexist or misogynistic behavior,” as if they’re the same thing. Women shouldn’t try to tell men how men’s friendships work. Men shouldn’t try to tell women how women’s friendships work. And men shouldn’t try to tell women how it feels to be a victim of misogyny. Now, as to what constitutes sexist or misogynistic behavior, that’s a completely different matter.
If a man has a healthy attitude towards women, and he says something that is not misogynistic or sexist in any way, and a woman perceives it as misogynistic, does that mean it’s misogynistic? For your logic to even have a chance at working (and even then it really wouldn’t), the answer to that would have to be yes. But the answer is no.
[quote=CA renter]
If one group of people is treated differently from another group, especially if they have historically been oppressed by the other group, then it is up to them to determine what is or isn’t unjust treatment.
[/quote]
Incorrect. It’s up to society as a whole to determine that.
[quote=CA renter]
Of course the group in power will want to dictate things to them, as they’ve always done. Of course, they would like to exaggerate the differences between the groups in an attempt to justify the imbalance of power between the groups. It doesn’t mean that they are right, and they certainly are in no position to tell the oppressed group that they are incapable of discerning prejudicial behavior just because they’ve been subjected to it.
[/quote]
I see. So you think that, when people say that genders are different, the reason they’re saying that is “they would like to exaggerate the differences between the groups in an attempt to justify the imbalance of power between the groups.”
So really, this isn’t about gender differences, it’s about power. You’re a woman, and you’re tired of being on the losing side. (I don’t agree with Brian and scaredy that women have a lot of power and always have. As I’ve said, I think women have been screwed for thousands of years). And you want power for your kind. That’s all good. I agree with all that.
But I think you’re going about it the wrong way. You’re afraid (I’m presuming, and I could easily be wrong – correct me if I am) that if you say, “women deserve equal power,” men will say, “you’re not men. You don’t deserve power. Women are soft and gentle and weak by nature and could not handle power. Therefore we won’t give it to them.” (Not out loud, of course). And that if you allow that there are natural gender differences, then men will use them as justification for continuing to hold power.
There are (at least) two things wrong with that. Number one, it’s too obvious to anyone looking at it with clear eyes that males and females are naturally different. Just like in most of the other animals. The anger of losing for thousands of years is enough to cloud anybody’s vision, and that’s why, in my opinion, you, and most 1970s-style feminists, can’t see the natural differences in the genders. If you start from a false position, you’ll get no respect and you’ll have no logical, realistic position on which to build.
Number two, it ignores the strengths that women naturally have and the weaknesses that men naturally have. If women ran the world (not necessarily women like Thatcher, Merkel, and Clinton, who are all fairly…who all have a lot of what are normally male traits), I believe there would be a lot less war. Just to name the main advantage women should have in this fight for power. Women who are fighting for more power/equality for women need to start from a realistic position, and then they need to use that position to their advantage.
[quote=CA renter]
And you’ve said that you’ve never heard or seen a parent talk about not wanting their boys to be “feminized” and you clearly missed this perfect example right here. Scaredy’s posts are think with it, all throughout this thread, but you’ve missed it completely.
[/quote]
What I said was that I never heard parents say that exposing boys to girls will feminize them, or that they wanted to segregate boys and girls for fear of feminizing boys. I didn’t miss anything. You misrepresented what I said (again) and showed me how what you said I said wasn’t correct. Do you see the problem there? `
[quote=CA renter]
Even your assertion that “we don’t want boys to be like girls” is a perfect example of it! And you use this as a justification to guide boys into segregated activities. This is exactly what I’m talking about.
[/quote] This is exactly what I’m talking about. In fact, my whole argument can be summed up in your three sentences above and my response below. If you ignore most of my post (like you usually do), please read the next paragraph and pay attention.
You think that I used “we don’t want boys to be like girls” as a justification to guide boys into segregated activities. My whole argument has been that you’re imagining it when you say that people use fear of feminization as justification for segregation of genders. And you’ve done exactly that right here. You just said that I use fear of feminization of boys as justification for segregation of genders, when I did no such thing. I defy you to show me where I did that. If you can somehow imagine that I’ve used fear of feminization of boys as justification for segregation of genders right here where everything I’ve said is written down in black and white, where there’s not a lot of ambiguity, it’s not real hard to figure that you’ve been imagining it in the much-more-ambiguous real world.
[quote=CA renter]
And women absolutely do pass on the misogyny. You have no idea how many times I’ve heard women say:
“I have such a GREAT relationship with my son. There is nothing like the relationship between a mother and her son. Boys are just so special.”
[/quote]
Thinking boys are special is not misogyny.
[/quote]
[quote=zk]I pointed out your erroneous assertion that thinking boys are special equates to misogyny. Nothing to do with your M.T.G. (Except maybe evidence that you’re wearing them).[/quote]
[quote=CA renter]
And you were wrong. Let’s turn this around. Let’s say a mother has a black child and a white child, would you say: “Thinking white children are special is not racist.” Really?
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I think it would be misinformed to think that white children are different from black children. But it would only be racist if you thought that white children were better than black children.
[quote=CA renter]
If boys are special, what are girls?
[/quote]
Special.
[quote=CA renter]
Yes, that is a perfect example of sexism, and it shows how some parents treat different-gendered children in a way that would affect these children and their perceptions of themselves, and their gender, for life.[/quote]
I never disagreed that how parents treat different-gendered children would affect these children and their perceptions of themselves and their gender. What I disagree with is your assertion that there’s very little difference to begin with.
