[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=zk][quote=FlyerInHi] Superior in upbringing[/quote]Superior in upbringing? So a tidy person who was taught to be tidy and was sexually abused and is now a rapist or a pedophile is superior in upbringing to a person who grew up in a messy house and was taught to treat people right and is now messy but treats people well?[/quote]

I agree that we should judge a person as a whole. Untidiness by itself doesn’t make a person bad, but it lowers the overall score.

However, I still insist that, all else being equal, tidiness is better.

On this subject, I believe that your giving 97% and your wife only giving 3% clearly shows that it’s a non-negotiable item to her. I’m with your wife.. but I wouldn’t go as far as making guests walk around back and through the garage.

Also, I don’t thing we can throw out societal norms and start with a blank slate. There’d too much to throw out.[/quote]

“There’d (be) too much to throw out.” You got that part right, FIH.

Ahhh, I find this thread re-a-llly interesting. zk, you brought up some things here that indicate that YOU have your own issues that you are bringing here which have nothing to do with tidiness or cleanliness. zk, are you comparing yourself here to a pedophile or rapist who is “tidy?” What does being a pedophile or rapist have to do with tidiness?

Firstly, I’ll leave “tidiness” out of my discussion here as I’m not into rolling up my clothing in my drawers, etc. In addition, I … like millions of other Americans, have house pets and well know it is difficult, at best, to keep an entirely clean and tidy house 24/7 with pets living there. I’ve also had “friends,” relatives and neighbors in the past and present who are and were filthy people. In the case of my relatives, their houses were so filthy that I would not stay overnight there, sit on any of their furniture or use their bathrooms. In 90% of cases, their physical filthiness trait manifested itself into an inability to manage family finances (all the while having an adequate to GREAT income) due to overspending, hoarding brand-new unused items they purchased themselves, chronic gambling, smoking, drinking, partying, etc, etc, all the while attempting to raise their families. These behaviors undoubtedly lead to BK filings, foreclosure and the family having to go on aid in order to eat and subsist. Their children (now all grown) had chronic asthma and chronic bronchitis while growing up due to all the smoke and stale ashtrays all over the house, keeping them absent from school regularly. Cat litter boxes hadn’t been changed or cleaned in months and their cats relieved themselves throughout the home. Dirty dishes are piled to the ceiling on every kitchen counter (and in all the bdrms) and in the past, infant bottles and their paraphernalia had been “soaking” in greasy water in the kitchen for days. Laundry is piled to the ceiling and no one in the family ever has any clean underwear or socks. Carpets in the house need to be burned, and in some cases, maybe the entire house should be/have been burned down as well, lol ….

I felt “so sorry” for the kids who were never taught to do any household chores or to even make their beds and keep their own rooms clean. Naturally, these kids can’t wait to leave home at 18 years old (plus one minute) or even earlier if they can possibly live with a friend for awhile to finish HS. They often end up almost immediately “hooking up” with somebody so they can live cheaper on their own and then having their own kids while still a teen. Then you can well imagine a repeat of all of the above behaviors because these kids don’t know anything else. So yes, filthiness leads to all kinds of problems unrelated to cleanliness, especially if the filthy person is a parent. I agree with FIH in that this subset of the population lacks discipline, is very often borderline or clinically depressed and lacks respect for others’ property. An example is neighbors who move barely-running junk cars around the street over and over for YEARS (to keep them from getting towed) yet never drive them anywhere and have several feet high of rusty junk and more junk vehicles piled up in their driveways and front yards. Due to lack of respect for their neighbors, this type of person lacks empathy so possibly also suffers from NPD. Some of these people are literally spilling out of their houses, garages, lots and recycle and trash carts. Of course, when their trash carts are dumped weekly, their trash is never bundled correctly so spills and flies out on the street, sidewalk and neighbors’ lots. Their vehicles have more than a foot of trash on every floorboard. I could go on and on here but you get the drift. The filthy ones are very often the same people with judgment liens, NOD’s, NOS’s and BK filings on their record but NOT for lack of income or insufficient income but because they consciously and continually lived beyond their means for an extended period of time.

I believe filthiness is a character flaw which extends to all areas of life. In my experience, that character flaw goes hand in hand, not necessarily with criminal tendencies but with the filthy person’s level of motivation, reliability, perseverance and trustworthiness.

I’m not talking here about failing to roll your clothes properly to put in a drawer or failing to feather dust your lampshades and picture frames regularly. I’m talking about living in filth and FIH is correct in that many, many Americans do. I don’t have any respect at all for these kinds of people.

There was a recent discussion here about how “valuable” SAHP’s are to society. I do understand that there are some very good household managers out there but in my experience, I have seen more SAHP’s do little to nothing to “earn their keep” than ones that do (except spend money). This isn’t to negate in any way, shape or form that personal choice, but I just haven’t seen any really spectacular household mgrs who are SAHP’s. On the other hand, I’ve seen several GREAT household mgrs who had full time careers while raising children (that doesn’t mean they did everything themselves).

Yeah, I’m judgmental about this topic because I believe it’s deplorable and unconscionable to raise kids in filth when a bottle of ammonia costs 59 cents and rags are free (CPS agrees with me). If you need junk hauled off, there are very low cost ways to do that, too. Even if the family is low income, there are ways to “do poor right” as Blogstar stated in the “Ferguson” thread. Having a reasonably clean home and teaching kids how to clean is part of being a parent, no matter what the family income.

[quote=zk]Our home is super fresh and extremely neat and clean. We are proud to invite people over. But there are disadvantages to having a neat-freak wife:

We have a very large back yard with a bocce ball court, a covered patio, a built in bbq, an iron gazebo shaded by bougainvillea, a fire pit, a putting green, a horseshoe pit, a huge cabana with a 60 inch tv, a lawn big enough for croquet or badminton, and a 270 degree view. Perfect for entertaining 60 or 70 people. But she won’t have more than three couples and their kids over at a time. (She tries to keep it to two couples, but will allow three in a pinch.) Because it would freak her out to have the house that messy just between the time it got messy and when we finished cleaning up. And somebody might, god forbid, spill something on the carpet. Given the option, I’d take both large parties and some messiness rather than neither.

Also, when I have a poker game or a football draft at my house, everybody has to stay outside (in the cabana) except to use the bathroom. And they have to go around the house and through the garage to get there.

I managed to get permission to have a small super bowl party last year. Had about 20 or 25 people over. It took me a year to get permission, and I heard about it for a month after. Not doing that again.

So there are disadvantages. But, hey, to make a marriage work, you have to work together and compromise. I do most of the giving in this particular area, but she more than makes up for it in other areas.

So, I don’t see myself as lucky that my wife is neat. I see the advantages of it, but overall it’s not a benefit.[/quote]

WOW, zk, it looks like you may have dumped about $100K?? in your backyard so you could comfortably entertain your friends! If you don’t mind my asking, did that ~$100K come from your salary? Or maybe your spouse’s salary?? Is the property half yours (half yours and half your spouse’s)? At the time you were dumping big bucks into your BY, were you aware that your spouse would later insist on you only being able to entertain just six people at a time? Must all your guests be married or would your spouse approve a guest who was single?

And I’m wondering why you left the carpet in the house when you purchased it if you planned on entertaining large groups of people?

Having entertained at home a lot in the past myself (up to 240 people), I WELL KNOW how much work it is before, during and after the party. But for the life of me, I don’t know why one co-owner would be able to successfully prohibit the other co-owner from doing what they expected to do with their property at the time of purchase and the time of installing those subsequent (expensive) improvements.

[quote=zk]…In any case, a person’s value shouldn’t be measured by their intelligence, let alone their their tidiness or lack thereof.

Same with a tidy person. Maybe he’s tidy, but that doesn’t make him superior. It doesn’t even make him superior in discipline and personal habits. Maybe he cheats on his wife or can’t control his spending or doesn’t change the oil in his car.[/quote]

zk, I find it very telling that your sample “tidy person,” (above) is a male who cheats on his wife and/or can’t control his spending, etc. In essence, you’ve stated here that you are a lifelong messy person by upbringing and habit yet are now only a “tidy person” because you feel you have to be to keep your relationship together. Infidelity, inability to control spending and failing to change oil in one’s vehicle are actually equally shared traits of both genders, none of which has anything to do with being a clean or “tidy” person.

Might you yourself be struggling with both of these traits and so that’s why you used them in this discussion? Just wondering ….

I agree with FIH. Based upon your posts and your own admission, you’re giving 97% in your relationship. Hope you’re getting your money’s worth :=0