the ccc – Piggington's Econo-Almanac

This topic has 16 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 6 months ago by no_such_reality.

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May 23, 2012 at 10:07 PM #19814

jstoesz
Participant

I just finished watching a documentary on the crash of 29, the golden gate, and the CCC. If we are going to spend so much money to prop up the economy, why can’t we spend it on some lasting stuff (not green energy, real work in the land). Growing up in MN, I remember more than a few signs for the ccc. Now in california, I think half the hiking trails were built by some alphabet soup camp.

I do not understand food stamps, lets build some stuff. Why is it so hard? The hoover dam and the golden gate were built in the depression, why can’t we get that stuff off the ground now?

Lawyers, environmental studies? I feel like even the government is strangled by its own regulators…

May 23, 2012 at 10:16 PM #744281

scaredyclassic
Participant

the nation could probably get behind constructing a massive southwestern fence.

May 23, 2012 at 10:17 PM #744282

scaredyclassic
Participant

unskilled human labor may be now worth less than zero, taking into account management costs.

May 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM #744285

jstoesz
Participant

[quote=squat250]unskilled human labor may be now worth less than zero, taking into account management costs.[/quote]

you depress me.

May 23, 2012 at 10:42 PM #744286

scaredyclassic
Participant

sorry. maybe if oil were 50 a gallon, ditch digging would pay

May 24, 2012 at 5:09 PM #744320

svelte
Participant

[quote=jstoesz]I just finished watching a documentary on Growing up in MN, I remember more than a few signs for the ccc. Now in california, I think half the hiking trails were built by some alphabet soup camp.

I do not understand food stamps, lets build some stuff. Why is it so hard? The hoover dam and the golden gate were built in the depression, why can’t we get that stuff off the ground now?
[/quote]

Not sure if you realize it, but the detailed 1940 census data was just released. I’ve spent a few hours pouring over it, seeing whether the stories that have been passed down over the generations are true. I wondered if what I heard about my grandparents generation really happened that way, or whether things have been embellished.

Having reviewed the census data on about 5 relatives who were in their 20s and 30s in 1940, I found something astounding: every one of them worked for the WPA and had done so for about half a year. Every one!

They weren’t building Hoover Dam (though my grandfather on the other side of the family did) or the Golden Gate bridge. They were each doing much more mundane jobs such as driving trucks for road projects, and plastering new or rebuilt schools. They were working on projects that have been forgotten over time.

Fast foward to the last 4 years. Obama implements the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA). $46 billion of that is going for transportation and mass transit projects.

On October 2, 2009 Schwarzenegger applied for $4.7 billion for California’s high speed rail. The White House approved $2.35 billion of that, and it is part of the funding being used right now to construct it.

Don’t believe me, read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail

Is it being implemented overnight? Well, no, there are hoops that have to be jumped through for sure. It is taking more time than 1940. But I tell you what, I’d rather go through all the environmental checks and other approvals than to have some irresponsible beaurocrat implement something as monumentally stupid as the roadway built through the Roman Forum by Mussolini from 1931-1933:

May 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM #744324

svelte
Participant

[quote=jstoesz]
I do not understand food stamps, lets build some stuff. Why is it so hard? The hoover dam and the golden gate were built in the depression, why can’t we get that stuff off the ground now?
[/quote]

Where, you may ask, are ARRA funds being used to build something in San Diego county?

In just a few minutes of searching, I found the following:

(there may be some overlap in these numbers, I have not deconflicted)

$72M – Transit Improvements
$58M – Trolley Improvements (may be included in above number? Not clear)
$9M – SR-76 and I-805 Improvements
$5M – Energy Conservation Improvements at various government buildings
$2M – Gillespie Field Airport Construction
$1M – Street/sidewalk improvements in Del Mar, Imperial Beach, Lemon Grove, Poway, Solana Beach

http://www.projectdesign.com/resources/news_102/oceanside_transit_ctr..pdf
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_infra.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_housing.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_energy.html
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf

May 24, 2012 at 10:16 PM #744337

bearishgurl
Participant

[quote=svelte][quote=jstoesz]
I do not understand food stamps, lets build some stuff. Why is it so hard? The hoover dam and the golden gate were built in the depression, why can’t we get that stuff off the ground now?
[/quote]

Where, you may ask, are ARRA funds being used to build something in San Diego county?

In just a few minutes of searching, I found the following:

(there may be some overlap in these numbers, I have not deconflicted)

$72M – Transit Improvements
$58M – Trolley Improvements (may be included in above number? Not clear)
$9M – SR-76 and I-805 Improvements
$5M – Energy Conservation Improvements at various government buildings
$2M – Gillespie Field Airport Construction
$1M – Street/sidewalk improvements in Del Mar, Imperial Beach, Lemon Grove, Poway, Solana Beach

http://www.projectdesign.com/resources/news_102/oceanside_transit_ctr..pdf
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_infra.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_housing.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_energy.html
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf%5B/quote%5D

Thanks for your “cursory” research, svelte. All good to know :=]

May 25, 2012 at 6:49 AM #744341

no_such_reality
Participant

I grew up in Minnesota, the WPA projects were visible in every single park, the local courthouse, other buildings, bridges, etc. Beautiful work, lasting work.

This is a simple staircase in a small park. It’s common to have the accompanying buildings match for a full day at the park. Firepits, open air dining lodge, restrooms, boatramps, parking.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/casualcameracollector/4794196871/

Here’s a partial list of the how much they accomplished in the West with roughly half inflation adjusted dollars that we spent on the first bailout.

http://livingnewdeal.berkeley.edu/map/category.php

Look at it and weep when you realize how badly we’re being ripped off today.

We should have a list 4X as big as the Berkley list. We need a list 4X as big as the Berkley list.

Instead, we’ve lined the pockets of campaign contributors on both sides.

May 25, 2012 at 9:20 AM #744347

briansd1
Guest

Was Franklin D. Roosevelt a great president or what?

May 25, 2012 at 9:35 AM #744349

briansd1
Guest

[quote=svelte]

Is it being implemented overnight? Well, no, there are hoops that have to be jumped through for sure. It is taking more time than 1940. But I tell you what, I’d rather go through all the environmental checks and other approvals than to have some irresponsible beaurocrat implement something as monumentally stupid as the roadway built through the Roman Forum by Mussolini from 1931-1933:

[/quote]

I’ve never been to Rome. I had to look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_dei_Fori_Imperiali

I’m not sure what we’d lose but 1940s buildings from the construction of the high speed rail line in CA.

Remember when they razed old buildings in Manhattan to build the World Trade Center? Now the lost iconic Twin Towers are forever part of American history.

So many beautiful old buildings in NYC were lost to development. Isn’t that progress?

May 25, 2012 at 10:39 AM #744356

jstoesz
Participant

[quote=svelte][quote=jstoesz]
I do not understand food stamps, lets build some stuff. Why is it so hard? The hoover dam and the golden gate were built in the depression, why can’t we get that stuff off the ground now?
[/quote]

Where, you may ask, are ARRA funds being used to build something in San Diego county?

In just a few minutes of searching, I found the following:

(there may be some overlap in these numbers, I have not deconflicted)

$72M – Transit Improvements
$58M – Trolley Improvements (may be included in above number? Not clear)
$9M – SR-76 and I-805 Improvements
$5M – Energy Conservation Improvements at various government buildings
$2M – Gillespie Field Airport Construction
$1M – Street/sidewalk improvements in Del Mar, Imperial Beach, Lemon Grove, Poway, Solana Beach

http://www.projectdesign.com/resources/news_102/oceanside_transit_ctr..pdf
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_infra.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_housing.html
http://www.recoverysdcounty.org/awards_energy.html
http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitSD_0907/Terry_SD090707.pdf%5B/quote%5D

Most of the projects undertaken by the stimulus were simply maintenance projects already in the works. There was nothing new, the fungible state dollar could be moved to other holes in the state and local budgets. The high speed rail project is a perfect example of our inability to build anything. In ca could we build hs rail? Of course, but the regulatory burden that chokes private business chokes public works twice as hard. I know some one who has been working for a whole department paid for by the state that studies just the water impacts for high speed rail. They have been going strong on this for years. I now think the entire goal of the project was not to build rail, butto throw a football to the state regulatory boards who will kick it around for years while we pay them to impede all progress. We plowed over the central valley years ago!

May 25, 2012 at 11:36 AM #744359

dumbrenter
Participant

[quote=no_such_reality]I grew up in Minnesota, the WPA projects were visible in every single park, the local courthouse, other buildings, bridges, etc. Beautiful work, lasting work.

This is a simple staircase in a small park. It’s common to have the accompanying buildings match for a full day at the park. Firepits, open air dining lodge, restrooms, boatramps, parking.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/casualcameracollector/4794196871/

Here’s a partial list of the how much they accomplished in the West with roughly half inflation adjusted dollars that we spent on the first bailout.

http://livingnewdeal.berkeley.edu/map/category.php

Look at it and weep when you realize how badly we’re being ripped off today.

We should have a list 4X as big as the Berkley list. We need a list 4X as big as the Berkley list.

Instead, we’ve lined the pockets of campaign contributors on both sides.[/quote]

You might be confusing bailout and ARRA. They are two different things.
Man, those guys who did the WPA works had some class or what? I looked at some of the projects that were done with those funds in San Diego from the list you provided. Did not realize Presidio park and county building were built with those funds.

May 25, 2012 at 1:45 PM #744365

enron_by_the_sea
Participant

Such monumental projects should be built by a government that has no requirement to balance budget, market power to borrow practically unlimited amounts of money and one who can print money if the project does not work out. That would be the Federal Govt. of United States in 1930s.

The Federal Govt in the 2010s is in weaker position to fund such projects than the one in the 1930s because the debt-to-GDP ratio in the 1930s was much smaller than today. Most people miss this very important point.

Almost any great highly expensive project that you can think of in the world was built by a govt. that met conditions that I described above.

But Feds can still do it. So if they want to build high speed rail in CA and pay for it we should all welcome them here.

However, the State Govt of CA is a different animal. They have constitutional requirement to balance their books every year, they can not borrow unlimited amount of money from bond markets and they do not print their own currency. Also the last time I checked, we have a severe problem balancing the budget as is.

State Govt. of CA can not afford HSR and should not dream up such projects which have high probability of ending up as white elephants.

May 25, 2012 at 5:56 PM #744376

svelte
Participant

[quote=jstoesz]
Most of the projects undertaken by the stimulus were simply maintenance projects already in the works. There was nothing new, the fungible state dollar could be moved to other holes in the state and local budgets. [/quote]

You could say the same thing about the WPA projects that my relatives worked on in 1940. Those roads and schools already existed, they were just improved upon with WPA dollars.

Look, if you want to get all worked up because dad gum it, the world has gone to hell since you used to wear an onion from your belt, go ahead. Just please gently brush the facts aside so the rest of us can continue to enjoy them.
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